CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Mark_Reeve on October 31, 2016, 07:56:56 AM
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Hi, I'm a new member and would just like to ask a fairly simple question I suppose, we have recently picked up a puppy cocker spaniel and will be picking up a sprocker in a weeks time (from the same breeder and the two have been with each other for at least a week already so no problems there)
My question is about crate training, we put Rolo to bed and he is great for a couple of hours, then he will whimper...how do you tell if it is for attention or whether he has pooped in his bed? As I know you are supposed to ignore them whimpering which we did but then we saw he had pooped in his bed; are you supposed to leave them in there or do you check on them when they whimper and see if they are attention seeking or have messed their bed.
I know there will be a few answers and all will be appreciated.
Thanks. Mark
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Where were you advised to ignore whimpering? Puppies don't 'attention seek' as such. If they are making a noise, they need something. How old is Rolo? When they are very little they need to be taken out to pee and poop very often during the day and several times at night. The crate helps them practice holding it, but they can't hold it longer than their little bodies allow when they are babies. If he pooped I need his crate, that's why.
If he's whimpering because he is feeling lonely or frightened, you need to find a way to comfort him while helping him gradually learn to be comfortable when left. I didn't have this problem with Henry but I know others here did and can tell you what worked for them.
Finally, I've read many times that having two puppies is a bad idea. There is a thing called Litter Mate Syndrome which applies to any dogs close in age, not just litter mates. It's advised that two puppies should be raised separately to bond with their humans and not each other. Is this something you've looked into? Apologies if you have and I am telling you things you already know!
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Hello Mark and welcome to COL :D
Pictures of new fur babies are a must!
Many people do deal with this differently but I can tell you what worked for me.
The first few nights I slept on the sofa near to Reese who was in an open crate with a pen. Which enabled me to comfort him but also learn the difference between him just wanting to be out to when he needed the toilet. Reese did have a pad in his pen but I wanted to teach him to go outside if possible so when I heard the toilet cry I would take him out only praising him when he went and put him back in his crate without making a fuss. After a few nights i went back upstairs and he only really cried when he first went in so anything else I knew he needed the toilet. He did need to go a couple of times in the night but this did reduce as he got bigger.
I certainly don't envy you, one cocker puppy was more than enough for me to manage! >:D and I have had dogs all my life.
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Hi, your post concerns me as you seem to be a first time dog owner but are planning on having 2 puppies at same time, is this correct ? Has your breeder not warned you that it is not the best idea to have 2 puppies at the same time ? Have they told you that training 2 puppies at the same time is very hard ? Have they told you that 2 puppies can bond more with each other than the owner ? Have they told you that you will need to find the time to train and walk each puppy separately as well as together?
Sorry to be so negative, but I actually think breeders who sell 2 puppies to first time or inexperienced owners do not have their puppies best interests at heart!
Anyway, back to your question about whimpering in the crate. You need to ensure your puppy has toileted before you put them in crate at night. This may mean you are standing outside for half an hour waiting for it to happen. If they have pooed before bed they should manage a good few hours before needing to go again, if not then you may need to change the feeding schedule, either making last meal earlier or later.
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Hi Mark
What lovely names Rolo and Ronnie and welcome to Cockers Online
I am a little concerned about what you are taking on too, is your puppy a show cocker or working - while they still need just as much input workers do require a lot more exercise and while never worked with a working cocker am sure some of our members can advise of just how much more work is needed as they do hunt and are gunndogs etc.
I think spockers and WCS as puppies and young dogs would be a challenge that not many who work with the breed would take on together.
Please except this as concern and just my opinion.
I am delighted that you have a new cocker puppy and wish you all the best.
As for the crate, in the early days toilet puppy as late as possible and I used to get up quiet early, it is a case of finding out there routine, as Rubella says it can be a waiting game, never forget my neighbour saying that I said go wee wees and go poo poo so sternly they felt like going to the loo themselves. :005:
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Hi all, thanks for the feedback, my history with dogs, is that I have grown up with springers, cockers and sprockers my entire life, all 27 years, my mum and dad always had a springer and at one point had a springer and and sprocker, my god parents have had 3 cockers for most of the time I can remember, and I helped to train the sprocker at classes and home etc so although I am not an expert I wouldn't say I am inexperienced either. I can only really thank everyone for their concern and I know it going to be hard work but I am used to that.
Rolo is a 9 weeks old working cocker spaniel and he has been very good actually only really making noises at twice at most during the night. I was ignoring some of his whines to teach him that whining isn't the way to get what he wants I guess. Me and my family did it to my sprocker and it worked well ( I know every dog is different) his crate has a "ticking" friend to help soothe him but I guess I am expecting a bit much for such a young puppy. I have heard that, and the breeder mentioned something about it being better having one pup at a time but I would like them to have company like many of my other dogs. However I haven't heard of it being a serious as you have mentioned, shouldn't think it is too common by will definitely keep it in mind.
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It's called littermate syndrome, and it's more common than you think. You should be prepared to train your puppies completely separately and allow them time by themselves so they don't overbond.
https://blog.betternaturedogtraining.com/2013/07/18/littermate-syndrome/ (https://blog.betternaturedogtraining.com/2013/07/18/littermate-syndrome/)
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Mark it seems you have been around these dogs, plus having age on your side :D - so might be having you handfuls and with your family you will cop ok.
Don't forget photos....we love those
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Thank you jaysmumagain, if I came across rude I didn't mean to and I do appreciate any advice! Photos will follow :)
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didn't think it at all......take care
Jaysmum
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You just get up and take the puppy outside. You keep saying toilet and treat if you get one.
Expect to do this every few hours at first. But in a week or so leave it longer.
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O'h to be young again! ;)
Don't really have anything to add, except to wish you the best of luck!! It will be a challange but then challanges are there to be taken! Do keep us posted, look forward to pictures and remember where we are - there'll always be plenty of support and advice on here!
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I'm sure it will be hard work but totally rewarding for all of you. I'm think there was a member on here who had 2 sister puppies and she was advised how hard it would be but they grew up together without problems. Can't remember the name or I would find an old thread for you, sorry. I wish you lots of luck and I'm sure it will turn out fine so long as you put the work in, which you are aware of and seem prepared for. All I can say is 1 wcs pup was way too much for me and I'd had twin girls (human) but they were a doddle compared to Bonnie :005: :005: It was worth it in the end, as yours will be.
As for the whining at night, with Bonnie, we ignored the initial crying when we first left the room but went to her crate and let her outside for her toileting if she cried again later. We did shifts (don't know if this is possible for you) where I stayed up with her until 1.00 am, let her out for final wee/poop then put her in her crate. Then my OH, who had gone to bed early, would get up at 5.00am to let her out while I slept later and we'd then swap so one of us was up late but didn't have to get up early as well. This worked really well as she only went 4 hrs during the night without a toilet break until she was older and able to hold it for a bit longer. IF she woke up whining in those 4 hours, one of us did pop down, took her straight outside to do her business but then put her straight back in her crate, no playing or cuddling (oh we were so mean ;)). It worked for us and for Bonnie as she never messed in her crate at all and she learned to settle at night very quickly.
Good luck and hope you get some photos of your pups soon :luv:
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Thanks for the advice, I think me and my girlfriend will do a "turn"based approach when it comes to it. Rolo has been ok, been getting him out to go to the toilet when he whines (but with no fuss) usually about 2am then he goes back to sleep till 5/5:30 which is fine as I am usually up then.
This is Rolo.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161102/43e6e4843d21d0a1a43bb32c01b042da.jpg)
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Lovely looking boy :luv:
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:luv: :luv:
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Awww bless him. They look so innocent when they're asleep :luv: :luv:
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Oh my, what a honey! That wee pink puppy tummy!! Bless him. :luv:
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What a cutie, butter wouldn't melt ;) :luv:
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He is a pretty boy even if I do say so myself. But then his brother Ronnie is quite the looker too. Photos of him will be soon!
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He's gorgeous. :luv:
In answer to your whimpering question - crate training, as I understand it (I don't use crates but did research their use when I got my most recent pooch. I may be corrected if this is wrong!) means that you should set an alarm and get up BEFORE pup starts whining. They don't like messing in their bed so leaving them to make a noise can cause them to get distressed. It is meant to be helpful with toilet training as they don't mess until you take them outside. My personal preference is to let pup have the run of somewhere safe (kitchen in my case) that is easily cleaned. Any overnight mess is quickly dealt with and pup doesn't get upset.
We had littermates when I lived with my parents. One mine, one my Dad's. They were very different dogs and I think we were lucky. We did train them separately and it WAS hard work but it can be OK. We also had no problems when I moved into my own house and they were separated at 5yrs old.
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He's an absolute poppet :luv: :luv:
Stephanie, George and Hamish xxx
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That boy on his back in the crate will be QUITE ENOUGH work.
It takes FOUR of us to keep up with this chap:
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/2/1564/24340427485_093f3eeb4f_b.jpg)
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Oh bless him, another gorgeous boy :luv: :luv: I am loving his blonde top knot :021:
Stephanie, George and Hamish xxx
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Mismarked!
Cross between Blue-Roan Dad and Golden Mum.
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That boy on his back in the crate will be QUITE ENOUGH work.
It takes FOUR of us to keep up with this chap:
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/2/1564/24340427485_093f3eeb4f_b.jpg)
OMG he's gorgeous :luv: but is anyone else reminded of Stripe, the naughty one in the film Gremlins??!! ph34r Sorry Alan. I'm sure he's not in any way like him and is an absolute cherub!
(http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l614/goldenharp1/48A8DD7F-F4D9-4C41-AECE-2CB311FA69BA_zps9tgjovlw.jpg) (http://s1126.photobucket.com/user/goldenharp1/media/48A8DD7F-F4D9-4C41-AECE-2CB311FA69BA_zps9tgjovlw.jpg.html)
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I'm always fascinated at the size of his paws. Nearly the same as my wife's hand!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7575/15876416672_41a4314f5f_b.jpg)
He's a SLOW runner but a great diver.
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161124/fbdaa8ac1eb9aece3f11b067f732c23c.jpg)
Meet Ronnie; a little update - currently both are being little buggers; after about a week of good behaviour they have decided they want to destroy anything in their pen - I am assuming down to boredom/teething - hopefully soon to stop as Ronnie will be able to go on walks with rolo this week (finally - felt like an age). So we should be able to get him to burn some more energy.
Suggestions on getting them to chew their toys rather than their bed (like they did yesterday) would be good - they have chew toys, both tug type and Kong type toys. But they always go for the newspaper and towels :@.
Also what do you guys do to keep them amused they seem to get bored of their toys (and they have plenty to choose from). We have plastic bottles, kongs and tug toys but they only really seem interested for 5 minutes, and obviously they each want what the other has which doesn't help as rolo just gives up and stops playing. And then decides he wants to start play fighting with each ronnie which is fine for a few minutes but then they start charging about the place so we try and calm them down.
Other than they they are great, Rolo is getting used to walking on the lead and comes when he is called majority of the time and Ronnie comes when he is called, is a little more work on the lead but he is younger than rolo so that is to be expected.
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At this age I fond Henry didn't really play on his own much. He wanted someone to play with him - especially with tug toys! The exceptions were his squeaky rubber chicken and duck. He could pick them up and shake them around which he found very satisfying. The other good occupier is a cardboard box or tube to tear up.
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Unfortunately play fighting with each other and charging around the house together will always be way more fun than any toy !! I would be giving them chill out time on their own, in their own crate, not together.
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Also to add it's usually recommended pups close in age have separate beds and crates so they can chill out separately and get away from each other if they want. Don't know if you've done that but thought it worth mentioning.
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Yeah got separate crates for each of them, and do have them chill out separately, it is usually rolo that calms down first so we continue to wear Ronnie out then put him in his crate. :)
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Hi lovely little puppies sounds like you knew how hard work it was going to be in the first place. I have 2 working cocker spaniel Bruce and bruno 1 nd 1/2 yr old and 13 weeks personally I love how much trouble they are and how much walking they take to tire. I have found they both love a hollow roasted bone and every so often I stuff treats in with some Kong filling
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Hi lovely little puppies sounds like you knew how hard work it was going to be in the first place. I have 2 working cocker spaniel Bruce and bruno 1 nd 1/2 yr old and 13 weeks personally I love how much trouble they are and how much walking they take to tire. I have found they both love a hollow roasted bone and every so often I stuff treats in with some Kong filling
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161126/e950d1089835bd6db0c69ed63cf89316.jpg) here are my 2
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161126/9e5b64962b5e10344ff4a0101612c199.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161126/d9bdfe7c9c451d4ee3480f208f08add2.jpg)