CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Feeding => Topic started by: AnnieM on August 10, 2009, 08:24:30 PM
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Well, after 3 1/2 years of dabbling I have finally decided to give it a go full time. I have just had my new freezer delivered and I have put in an order with natures menu. Off to the farm shop/abbatoir (next to each other, but not sure which I need) tomorrow and stocked up on chicken wings from tesco tonight. I have joined the britbarf forum, got my book, anything else I need to know? What about veg, is it essential? My lot do like veg, I haven't found anything they don't really like apart from celery, but then who can blame them. :P
So any advice from all you seasoned BARFers out there is most welcome, I need all the help I can get. ::)
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I saw you had joined the BritBarf group! ;)
Main tips - start slowly - don't give too much variety too quickly. It doesn't matter if they don't have anything but chicken for the first week or so...
- If "the book" is the Billingshurst one, be aware that he does seem to advocate a very high amount of bone... feel free to adjust ratios according to your dogs "output" :shades:
- veg really isn't essential - Honey has some occassionally, but it doesn't form a large part of her diet.
- introduce offal last and very slowly - it's vital for B vitamins, but too much too soon can cause runny bums... ph34r
Hope they (and you) enjoy it!
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Does the offal have to be fed raw, or can it be cooked and used as training treats. Jade absolutely hates the texture and will not touch it, even when I have lightly cooked liver she doesn't like it. I usually sort of slow cook it in the oven, then before it gets too hard cut it into bits and then put it back in and turn the oven off, it goes hard a bit like beef jerky. :P Just not sure if it kills off all the goodness completely. :-\
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It's better than nothing to cook it and feed it as treats...
Honey also hates the texture of liver - I liquidise it and mix it with minced tripe.... I started out with just a tablespoon in with her tripe and we are now at a 1/2 and 1/2 mix... ;) I blitz up a batch every couple of weeks, so I don't have to do it too often... ph34r
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Right I am starting to panic a bit now, I gave them all a chicken wing this morning and all 3 had gone in under 45 seconds, I did hear a little crunching, but then they were gone. :o Is that normal? I have given them before but just on very rare occasions as treats for their teeth, but they have sat and crunched them for 5 minutes or so, this is the 3rd day of having them and I was shocked how fast they disappeared. ph34r
Thanks for that Karma BTW, I will start by cooking it for treats and then when I can summon the courage I wll try blitzing it. :020:
I am going to be feeding tripe for one meal a day and either another meaty meal, boney meal, or fishy meal for the other, does that sound balanced enough or not enough bone?
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That sounds fine... tripe is like the multi-vitamin of raw food, so is great to feed! :D
It will depend how many boney meals, and quite how boney they are, as to whether it's enough bone, but it should be obvious by looking at their poo! ph34r
Honey tends to get a boney or fish meal in the morning and a meaty meal at night (we get lamb hearts from tesco as a good meat meal, or she gets tripe+liver or ox heart). But a couple of times a week she will get beef chunks instead of bones....
And it is quite normal for chicken wings to disappear quickly... so don't panic!!
If they do eat something too quickly they tend to vomit it back up pretty quickly so they can have a second go at chewing it... :020:
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Fantastic, thanks. Nothing has come back yet, :020: so obviously it wasn't too quick for them. :005:
What is the best boney meal to feed them? I have got the obvious chicken wings and am feeding 2 each, lamb ribs not sure how many I would feed them? What other boney meals are good, as I am off to the abattoir later to see what I can get.
I am using the AMP packs to start with as I am a bit nervous about making sure they get what they need. ph34r
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For boney meals Honey gets either Chicken Wings, lamb ribs/spine or pork ribs... she gets rabbit as and when I can get hold of it, and I have just found a source of chicken carcasses, so she'll get some of that too! As far as how many, it depends how big they are!! Honey normally gets 2 chicken wings, and I aim for about 150g for other boney meals (give or take, depending on what I've got) - once you are used to it, you really don't need to weigh, as you have a decent idea as to the portion size. I used to give her ox-tail, but she kept getting the larger peices stuck on the roof of her mouth, while she swallowed the smaller peices whole, so I gave up on that (likewise with Lamb neck bones).
Chicken wings are definately her favourite and go in a few seconds... others get carried around a little bit before she decides that she will eat them after all!
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don't use tripe too often if you have difficulty keeping weight off your dogs - a lot of Barf fed dogs get overweight easily and you will need to adjust their intake as per the individual dog's metabolism and needs ;)
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Thanks guys, well the trip to the farm shop/abattoir was a total waste of time, the guy there raw feeds his own show dogs, and point blank refused to let me have any bones to feed to the dog!!! >:( He said only ever feed chicken carcass, wings and necks, as lamb bones are too soft and splinter too easily. :-\ So now I am back to square one with that one and don't now know what to think. He did however give me a bag of chicken wings and told me of a place to go get them in bulk. ;)
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Does he only feed his own dogs chicken then? That's hardly a balanced diet. My lot get lamb ribs or breast of lamb once a week or so and they're fine, the only thing to watch out for is that lamb is quite fatty and too much of it can make some dogs a bit squitty. I don't do a wholly barf diet though, mine get Arden Grange in the mornings and a bone, tripe or sardine meal in the evening, I mainly give the bones to keep their teeth clean.
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I agree with Nic - just feeding chicken would not be a very good diet imo - the thing about BARF is that you need to feed a good mixture of stuff. :shades: Coco gets chicken wings and carcasses, pork ribs, rabbit when I can get it, oxtail, raw fish like whole sardines or mackerel, tripe and most other types of mince (Prize Choice blocks) and offal like lambs hearts, pig or lamb liver, kidneys etc. I have stopped giving her lamb ribs though as it tends to make her squitty - I think it is the lamb fat she can't tolerate. She also gets pulped veg a few times a week and a raw egg once or twice a week too. ;)
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you can get lambs breast from Morrisons but trim as much fat off as you can - also pork ribs are a really good meal as well ;)
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Agree with the others.... just chicken is not a good BARF diet - chicken is actually the least "natural" meat of the lot for a dog to eat and while it is fine as part of a variety (or as a one off when a complete kibble is fed) it isn't good on its own... :-\
I tend to buy Chicken wings, lamb hearts and pork ribs from Tesco... I get ox heart and lamb bones/breast of lamb from Morrisons... and occassionally lamb bones from Sainsburies (they sometimes have a value pack of casserole lamb - I use neck pieces for us and ribs for Honey). I get liver from wherever I am when we need it! I've never had a problem with lamb splintering, nor have I heard of anyone else having such a problem... the only reason I avoid the lamb neck is when it is cut like ox-tail Honey has the same difficulties with it as she does with ox-tail (sticking on the roof of her mouth) and while it was always easy to dislodge I felt it wasn't worth the risk for her.
I do find too many lamb meals cause Honey an upset - if she has lamb heart for one meal I can't give her lamb bones for the other....
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No, he doesn't just feed them chicken, but for bones he said he would only ever feed chicken or rabbit. I am going to try somewhere else, but for now mine will be getting the AMP packs anyway, I have ordered a mix of Tripe, Rabbit and Lamb, they will get a tin of pilchards in tomato sauce once a week, as well as raw egg etc and their chicken wings.
He also said under no circumstances to feed pork as they carry some parasite that causes cysts. ::) I really thought that was quite old hat, but it makes you wonder as he works at the abattoir. :-\
He said that the best place for me to go was the knackers yard!!! As I don't want meat that is fit for human consumption just for dogs, sounds like a bit of a tw*t to me.... >:(
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eeeeejit - the parasite in pork is meant to be long eradicated but I am still cautious with Pork as I spent 4 days in a portugese hospital on a drip after getting acute gastro-entiritis from it!
All I do is freeze the pork which kills any parasite which could have been in there and then feed it thawed ;)
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eeeeejit - the parasite in pork is meant to be long eradicated but I am still cautious with Pork as I spent 4 days in a portugese hospital on a drip after getting acute gastro-entiritis from it!
All I do is freeze the pork which kills any parasite which could have been in there and then feed it thawed ;)
Ditto - I always freeze pork before I feed it. I do that with chicken too but that is mostly for convenience although I think it is a sensible precaution ;) I get the pork ribs in Waitrose when they are reduced - usually about £1.20-£1.50 for a rack - and put them in the freezer. I sometimes get other meat for Coco there too - so most of her food is v high quality. I buy whole rabbits in the Farmers' Market when they have them for £3 each - I chop them up and get about 5 or 6 meals from one. The rabbits are probably the best thing she has as they often still have some of the organs in them. ;)
I get my chicken carcasses from a good quality butcher near me - they sell things like stuffed chicken portions, chicken kiev etc so have the carcasses and often the wings left over. Their stuff is all free range and fab quality. :D They actually have to pay the bone man to take them away so they are happy to give me as many as I want and just ask for a donation into their charity box :luv: :luv: So, my tip is find a high quality butcher and ask them if they have chicken carcasses ;)
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Thanks for that, great tip re freezing meat first, will do that. :D How many of the pork ribs would you generally feed as one meal?
I have 104 packs of the AMP being delivered tomorrow!! :o Didn't seem that many when I ordered it. :021: Just hope my new freezer is big enough, with all the chicken wings I have bought in tesco too. :P
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depends on the size of the pork ribs, 2 medium ones seem to be enough for Jarv ;)
good luck with your AMP delivery and packing your freezer :shades: ;)
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It normally works out as 2 for Honey, too... ;)
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I tend to weigh out bones and mince, especially for Clive as he's a fatty fat boy if I take my eye off the ball for one moment ::) and if I judge by sight I easily over feed.
I too recommend trying to find a good butchers - don't be put off if they say silly things. My butchers first thing was 'doesn't that make them wild ::)' but now they're used to it they are forever putting stuff aside for the boys :luv:. There are also companies that you can buy meat from and get bulk dlivered - great if you have a big freezer. Desperately trying to remember their names....someone with a better memory help?
Oooh...Landywoods is one I'm sure, and there's definitley at least one other. I can't remember if they do actual bones or not.
My boys get different stuff, Clive doesn't get lamb much cos he's already a porker :005: so his mainstay is chicken for bones, beef and fish for other meals, with offal. Dylan refuses to eat raw chicken, fish or offal so he gets more of a half raw half cooked diet to ensure he gets the variety of meat types. He also gets protein in other forms like beans. They only get pork occasionally because I can't get the ribs from my butchers, and I don't use supermarket meat these days (personal choice).
You may have to fiddle around for a while to find out what each individual dog wants / needs.
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Thanks for all your help, :D you guys hold a wealth of knowledge and I must say it is comforting to hear that people do feed their dogs other than chicken bones without ill effect. I am still nervous as I have 3 very greedy dogs, for instance my SIL gave them all one of the pedigree jumbones ph34r the other day, jade chomped twice and swallowed :o I couldn't believe it had gone that quick, Amber was only about 10 seconds behind her. I am not sure if it is the competition element that makes them eat so quickly.
My natures menu delivery has arrived and it was actually 116 blocks, :005: so my freezer is full to bursting, the dogs were going mental at the delivery man, trying to pull the boxes out of his arms and they currently have 2 blocks of rabbit defrosting at the moment, which is driving them wild because they know it is there. ::) Am I right in thinking that they should be having approx. 200g - 250g a day each or is that too much? I am a bit concerned that they will be hungry after being fed on kibble for years, as it has so much bulk to it, that 1/2 of a block doesn't seem very much for a days food after that. :-\ Does it take them a while to adjust, or do they seem content with the smaller volumes of raw food?
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It's generally 2-3% of bodyweight, so it might be a bit different for each dog. And that includes everything they get in one day, so include the weight of any treats as well.
The amounts of raw do seem small to start with and it can disappear extremely quickly ::) but they will feel full. Quantity eating is habit and opportunity, Clive will eat a houseful of food if allowed ::) so is very untrustworthy when it comes to the 'but mum I'm still starving looks' as he nudges his empty bowl around the kitchen...that's why I weigh and go by feel of his body (though it's been a while since he needed extra food to put on weight >:D)
For various reasons these days I hand feed a lot of their food. So bones are doled out one at a time (obviously because I have two they are not left together unattended with food but I can potter about in the vicinity while they eat - Dyl is much slower than Clive) and if I want them to make more of their dinner I even sometimes hand feed mince, interspersed with little bits of cabbage which they love crunching up and find easy to digest. If I just give Clive a bowl of mince, its gone in about 2 seconds flat and I like to give him the opportunity to mentally register he's had a good amount of food by making it last longer. Oh the lengths we go to.... ::)
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Thanks Abby, I am just waiting for it to defrost, but the pittiful whines and nudges I am getting are driving me mad, so they may end up with half frozen rabbit in a minute. ::) I dread to think what it will be like when they have wolfed the bowl down in 20 seconds flat and they are still sat waiting for their dinner!! ph34r :005: Don't think I will be hand feeding them that though it looks like mush. :P Off to try and source some bones for them now. Wish me luck. ::)
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If you can get hold of breast of lamb (about £3 a pop in my butcher in London) that's a good boney meal. It's very fatty so I usually trim it a fair bit. Zorro gets 2 ribs and Bella gets 1 as she's a little midget gem :luv: So from one breast of lamb I usually get 4 meals (i.e. two meals for both of 'em).
I also give raw fish (usually mackeral) once or twice a week although you have to not be squeamish as the sound of a mackeral's head being chomped through, brains, eyes and all, ain't all that pretty at 7am ph34r They do love it though and it's great for their skin and coat. I usually give them half a mackeral each and alternate who gets the tail and who gets the squidgy brains.
In terms of amounts, really you'll get to know as you go along. Bella is 10kg ideally (varies by a couple of hundred grammes each side of that) and an average day's food for her is one small chicken wing for breakfast, a fruit 'n' yoghurt frozen kong, a small handful of treats, and a miniscule 40g lean beef mince for dinner.
Zorro's 11.5kg but very high energy and gets 2 larger chicken wings, the kong, the handful of treats and more like 100g of full fat mince for dinner.
If we go on holiday so Zorro is doing more running around then we have to up his food even more as he just loses weight, if only I had his metabolism! :lol2:
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Thanks Claire, I think I will need to cut them down even more then, I gave them half of one of the AMP blocks (which looked nothing!) for breakfast and a chicken wing for tea, they always have a bonio for bed too. Probably why Amber is a bit of a porker really, she is so sedate when we are out, whereas Jade has a little more food than Amber but she is perfect, as she is very enegetic. Think they will be getting one pack between the 3 of them and a chicken wing or rib when I manage to get some and see how we go with that. ;)
It really is a vast contrast to the volume of dry food they eat isn't it. :o
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Weigh them all, and initially find out what 3% of each ones weight is and give them that as food per day. This is just to get them used to smaller amounts, once adjusted weigh them again say in one month and maybe drop down to 2% food per day per dog, split into two meals each.
Mine are raw fed and I don't really have weight variations of more than +/-500g per dog usually. I like to weigh the dogs every 3 mths just so I know where I'm at and if porkier its so much easier to shift a bit of weight as opposed to alot.
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Well thank you AnnieM for starting this thread, I was going to start one myself as I just started (last Thursday) albeit on the cautious side with the AMP blocks and chicken wings. My main reason for this is that Mollie is having problems with her anal glands, and we have got to the point where she is having them emptied every month, but today I have had to take her again and she only had them emptied 7 days ago :-\ She is also having skin problems around her back leg, tummy and base of her tail, and I think this is definately linked to the anal gland problem >:(. Last Thursday I went to PAH and bought a stock of AMP blocks and decided to give Mollie and Daisy both Burns kibble in the morning, then AMP mince or chicken wings for the afternoon meal, but now I am going to have a go at giving them both BARF for all their meals. I did admit (with caution) to the vet that I have started on a raw diet for Mollie and she wasn't adverse to it, but just mentioned about making sure she got all the varitey needed for a complete diet.
I also got my hands on the BARF Diet book, so just started to read that now ;)
It all just seems really daunting, but I am writing down notes from all the great guidance on here, and I'm sure it will become second nature, but at the moment I'm in training :shades:
My one question i would like to ask is that Daisy is a real pig, she gutseys everything, so when I have given her a chicken wing she gives it a little chew and then gulps it down, I did bash it with a rolling pin first and she didn't regurgitate it, so should I continue to give them to her? Mollie is very good and takes her time and savours every bit :luv:
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It all just seems really daunting, but I am writing down notes from all the great guidance on here, and I'm sure it will become second nature, but at the moment I'm in training :shades:
I agree, very scary, but I too am taking baby steps at the moment, using the AMP blocks and chicken wings, I am getting some ribs too when I can find a butcher or get to a supermarket that stocks them. (going to try morrisons tomorrow) I must admit though that I am scared about giving them ribs as they eat the chicken wings SOOOOOOO fast it is frightening, although this morning I gave them to them straight from the fridge and it did take them a bit longer, so maybe that is the key. (I had been leaving them out of the fridge for 1/2 hour first) Maybe worth a try with Daisy. :-\
I bought the Tom Lonsdale book Feed Your Dog Raw Meaty Bones, not sure if it is any good or not, but it is easy reading. :shades:
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Honey takes longer to eat a rib than she does a chicken wing.... ;)
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I have given my two lamb ribs before, but only small portions just as additional treats as when I go to the butchers that is all they usually give me. I understand what you mean about being scared with them eating the chicken wings so fast, I stopped giving them to Daisy becuase of they way she just gulped it down >:( I have wondered if to try and hold it while she is eating it, but I have this image of it just slipping out of my hand and it going down her throat ph34r :005:
Honey takes longer to eat a rib than she does a chicken wing.... ;)
That is useful to know Karma, will keep an eye on Daisy with the ribs :D
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Some people do hold the chicken wing to stop their darling
piggies doglets scoffing it down in one go. ::) I am lucky in that Coco does crunch hers up - if she didn't I think I would bash the bones with a rolling pin and hold on to it to make her eat slower ;)
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They do crunch them, it is just that they are gone so fast, well under a minute and I wasn't sure if this was normal or not. :huh: I am a bit happier after a few days of them having them, they are all pooing normally, although loads less, :D which is a huge bonus I hadn't anticipated. :lol2:
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They do crunch them, it is just that they are gone so fast, well under a minute and I wasn't sure if this was normal or not. :huh: I am a bit happier after a few days of them having them, they are all pooing normally, although loads less, :D which is a huge bonus I hadn't anticipated. :lol2:
Sounds fine then - if they are pooing normally and not bringing them up then they must be crunching them up enough to digest them ;)
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If Clive took anything like a minute to eat a chicken wing I would worry :005:
He regularly eats them without chewing them more than twice and has only regurgitated once in two years of Barf so he does just fine like that ::)
So long as they don't throw up regularly and are passing their food normally there's no need to worry :D
Mind you, if they do throw up, it just makes the meal last longer cos then they get to eat it twice :005:
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Agree with Abby - Honey has regurgitated one meal, but that was a whole lamb heart which she forgot to chew before she swallowed... ::)
Chicken wings are crunched briefly then swallowed.. other meals she does faff about with a bit more, but that's just her...
Barf-fed dogs poo an awful lot less than kibble fed dogs... it's great!!! :D
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It certainly is when you have 3 to clean up after. :005:
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So can I ask a question about vegetables? So do most of you feed fruit and veg and if so do you pulverise it? what fruit and veg do you feed? and if so how do pulverise it? do you use a blender or a food processor and do you add water as I have read that some people freeze it in ice cube blocks?
It is just that I have previously tried to chop up veg with a blender but it didn't go too well :shades: :shades:
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I do mine in the food processor - it ends up a sort of coarse pulp. I do add water and sometimes tomato juice - I find it makes it easier to deal with.
I use whatever veg I have at the time really but never onion or potatoes. I do put in a couple of cloves of garlic to each batch and a scoop of Keeper's Mix.
Other than that I use any of the following:
Carrots, parsnips, swede, brocolli, apple, banana, courgette, tomatoes, spinach, sprouts, peas (including the pod), celery. It is up to you what you use and you will learn what your pup likes. Coco loves carrots so that normally forms the bulk of it - probably 50% of each batch. ;) I then pour it into ice cube trays and freeze, then tip the cubes into a big bag and take out one or two cubes at a time to thaw. I don't feed veg with every meal - usually only when Coco has a mince or offall meal so probably about half the time overall. ;)
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Thanks Joules for all that information :D I have tried to pulp it with a Blender but it didn't really work, so I will have to invest in a food processor ;)
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When I was feeding veg regularly, I did as Joules described though I never needed to add water... I did add some cider vinegar, as I read this was meant to be a good digestive aid for BARF fed dogs...
Now, as I rarely give veg, she gets the Natures Diet veg cubes... more expensive than doing it myself, but as a bag lasts us ages it really doesn't make too much of a difference in the long term. She also gets red pepper cut into small peices as training treats on occassion (She loves it - though do be aware it can aggravate arthritis in dogs).
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The Natures Diet veg cubes sound a really good idea if I get fed up of doing my own veg, thanks for that Karma :D It is always good to know the alternatives, just incase you are unable to get round to doing it yourself it might be worth having a bag of those veg cubes in the freezer. Will have to have look in PAH next time I go to see if they have them :D
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hi why can we not feed the veg just cut into small pieces
and whole peas and sweetcorn so on
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Dogs can't break down cellulose, so they would get no nutritional benefit from diced or whole small veg... it's not going to do them any harm and can be useful as low-calorie treats, but if you want your dog to get the nutrition you should liquidise it... the theory is that the only vegetable product in a wild dog's diet would be the stomach contents of their prey, so it would be pre-digested... ;)
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oh right thanks for that i will mash it up from now on
i do notice that the veg come out as it has gone in :005:
and he is more likely to eat his poo if it has veg in it, as it must smell
just like it did when i put it in his dish :005:
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Sorry AnnieM for hijacking your thread, but can I ask another question? ;)
Do any of you BARFers organise a weekly menu for your dogs so you know what you are doing every week or do you just do it day by day? I was thinking of doing a weekly list what they are going to have every day so it would make it easier for me and I feel like I am on top of it all - or am I just being too controlling ph34r ph34r
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Not at all, it is all information and I was thinking this myself, but as I only have 3 flavours of AMP blocks and chicken wings then they aren't getting a huge choice anyway, they are having a tin of pilchards in tomato sauce tomorrow and I am going to try to find some ribs from morrisons now for a change of bones. I am just making sure I rotate the foods so they get variety.
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I went down to our local butchers and he whipped out about 4 full lamb ribs and gave them to me for nothing, so then I popped down to the other butchers and they hadn't really got any ribs, and gave me a bag full of bits but when I got it home it was mainly fatty pieces, so I threw that in the bin ph34r to the dogs disgust ph34r. So I have split the ribs up into approx 110 to 140kg portions and put them in the freezer. So now I have AMP blocks, chicken wings and lamb ribs and have got to get my hands on a food processor so I can pulverise the veg. I also got some sardines for the dogs from Asda which they thoroughly enjoyed :D
Also can anyone tell me where I can get Keepers Mix from, is it widely available, and is this recommended to give or it is better to give them kelp, alfalfa and the Omega's?
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I started out with a bit of a weekly menu, and I think that can be useful while you find your feet and get used to the whole regime... it is useful to be able to double check the balance is right and confirm to yourself that they are getting a good variety...
Now I just play it by ear... but I'm much more comfortable with what she is eating and worry less about it... It did take me about 6 months to settle into this though - I started out following Billinghurst's model very closely, so was feeding pasta, cottage cheese, beans etc as well as raw meat... that's all gone out of the window now, as I've read more about other options, and it's far less stressful... I do make sure she gets a pot of liquidised liver once a week (one way or another) so I know she is getting that, and she gets her fish on dog training days so it doesn't matter if she has lots of biscuits for training (she won't eat raw fish, so I use the tinned stuff). Once you get used to it it's very easy to think back over the last couple of days and make sure you are getting a fair balance... I know when you are starting out, you really won't believe me (and I do still have lists laying around where I was working out percentages of this and that to make sure it all looked ok), but it does get easier!! :shades: ;)
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How's it going MollieMoo?
I gave them a pork rib each last night, couldn't get any lamb ribs, :-\ I have been in a constant state of anxiety ever since, making sure they seem OK! ::) I know it will get easier, but it is really nerve wracking. Have to say they are loving it though, I have never seen dishes empty so quickly. :D Just need to get some veggies done for them and I would like to know if any of you supplement the dogs with anything other than the meat and veggies?
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It's going OK AnnieM, so far so good.
I have ordered some Pork ribs on my shopping and also some liver, so they haven't had either of those yet. I will whiz the liver in the blender, but will have to work out how much they should get a week - unless someone can give me a guide to that? ;)
I have borrowed my MIL's food processor so have pulped the veg, although first time I don't think I pulped it enough or put enough water in, so I did some more last night and it looked better, so that is all in the freezer ready for when I want it.
I bought some more chicken wings when I was at the butchers and when I got them out they were tiny, so have decided I am going to try Daisy on those, as she is a little pig and gulps everything down, so I will bash them with a rolling pin and then I will hold them for her as she tries to eat it which will hopefully slow her down a bit.
I have been back to PAH this morning to have another look around as last time I was in a bit of a rush. I had a look to see if they sold Keepers Mix, I didn't think they would, and they didn't so I will have to look elsewhere, although we are planning on going to the local game fair on the bank holiday weekend, so I might be able to pick some up there :D So at the moment they aren't getting any additional supplements apart from Evening Primrose Oil.
I caught Mollie having a little scoot again this morning, so I have added some all bran to her food today. I was giving her Pro Fibre I had from the vets, but I haven't been giving it to her since I have started her on raw, so maybe I shouldn't have stopped it, but I was hoping the raw feeding would counteract this, but I suppose it will take a little time to start seeing the benefits.
Oh I have also drawn up a weekly diet sheet, so I know what to give them daily, more to make my life easier :shades:
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I buy my Keeper's Mix online from Dorwest http://www.dorwest.com/prodinfo.asp?number=KM (http://www.dorwest.com/prodinfo.asp?number=KM)
Don't use any other supplements, though Clive was on some vitamins for a while, that was for something else and only temporary.
I don't remember Clive taking long to sort himself out on Barf, a few days maybe? Tis too long ago now for my cranky memory to be reliable :005: All I do know is we used to go through a tonne of Pro Fibre and various probiotic pastes, and now he needs nothing like that :luv:
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I buy my Keeper's Mix online from Dorwest http://www.dorwest.com/prodinfo.asp?number=KM (http://www.dorwest.com/prodinfo.asp?number=KM)
Don't use any other supplements, though Clive was on some vitamins for a while, that was for something else and only temporary.
I don't remember Clive taking long to sort himself out on Barf, a few days maybe? Tis too long ago now for my cranky memory to be reliable :005: All I do know is we used to go through a tonne of Pro Fibre and various probiotic pastes, and now he needs nothing like that :luv:
That is really encouraging to know about Clive's anal glands, I just hope it will have the same effect for Mollie ;) Thanks also for the link to the dorwest website, I will order some from there I think :D
I searched for Keepers Mix on COL and found some interesting comments about the dogs not liking the smell/taste and that one person put it into the veg mix to disguise it. Do you have any problems with it Abby?
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Not with Clive, he eats anything :005: Dylan definitely isn't keen on the taste but since I put it in with their mince & veg meals, once it's mixed in with a bit of water added, the tempting meaty aroma seems to overcome his objections :D
If you do mix it in with veg, do it when you put it in the bowl, rather than when you do a batch for freezing, not sure what freexing would do to it.
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I don't supplement with anything now.... ;)
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Glad to hear it is all going well. :D I am doing the veggie mix this afternoon. We had the squits yesterday from one of them, but I think that may have been the beef mince. :-\ EIther that or the pork rib from the night before, but they all seem ok in themselves. Not sure I will give them ribs again for a while, not sure my nerves will survive in tact, so it's back to chicken wings for a while. ::)
I am going to get some bran for Jaz as she has very stinky anal glands from time to time, :P I thought the chicken wings would help, but she seemed better with the bran. ;) Will get some of the keepers mix at the next show I go to. I give them EPO every day anyway so will keep that up (Jaz gets Yumega instead). I got them all weighed at the vets yesterday as they went for their boosters, Amber was 12.5kg, Jaz was 14.25kg and Jade was 13.95kg, so not what I expected really, I thought it would be Amber that was slightly overweight, but the vet said they looked fantastic and was very supportive of the BARF diet. :D I think Jaz needs to lose a little though as they are all about the same size, Jade looks perfect to me. So it is now a matter of balancing it right. ph34r
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Annie - definately stick to chicken wings for a while....
It really is important to take things slowly... it took us about 6 weeks before we were feeding a full range of foods to Honey, and even then we had pushed too quickly at one point and had an upset tum.
If they've had chicken, beef mince, fish and pork ribs in the first week or so, I'm not suprised they're a little runny!! ;)
With BARF it is balance over time that it important, so it doesn't matter if they are not getting the full variety at first!! :D
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Great thanks Karma, it is just worrying that you are not feeding them variety, but then I suppose what they are getting now is far more of a variety than the kibble. ;)
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Don't worry about the variety thing. Like Karma says, so long as they get what they need over the period of a few weeks, it doesn't matter whether they get a bit of everything everyday (probably not a good idea anyway) or bits at different times.
My two never get veg everyday, just now and again when I remember to do some or get it out the freezer. Same with the different meats. Over time it balances up nicely.
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If they've had chicken, beef mince, fish and pork ribs in the first week or so, I'm not suprised they're a little runny!! ;)
They have also had tripe, rabbit and lamb, oh and a raw egg..... :embarassed: Will slow it down a bit with the variety. ;)
Not so sure I will repeat the raw egg too often, they had really bad wind all night. ph34r
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They have also had tripe, rabbit and lamb, oh and a raw egg..... :embarassed: Will slow it down a bit with the variety. ;)
Not so sure I will repeat the raw egg too often, they had really bad wind all night. ph34r
Ahh that is interesting about the bad wind :shades: Daisy was a bit windy the other night, will have to check to see if it is when she gets an egg :005:
My Keepers Mix came yesterday so that had a bit each this morning with their mince and sardines, it mixed in well so I don't think they noticed it ph34r. They were licking their bowls for quite some time after they had eaten the contents, they are really enjoying it :D
I have been holding on to the bashed chicken wings when I give them to Daisy, and it is defintately slowing her down and I can hear her crunching at them. I feel better doing it that way, otherwise she will try to swallow it all in one go >:(
Mollie and Daisy's stomachs seemed to be coping well with it and I have definately noticed a reduction in the output ;)
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It's great isn't it, I hardly have anything to clear up now, compared to before. I know it is the eggs that make them windy, as they are like it everytime I give them one. I am so happy watching them eating and thoroughly enjoying their food, mine too spend ages licking their bowls and then they go and check each others are totally clean. :005: They even enjoyed their whizzed veggies today.
I am just going to give them 2 ice cube size veg portions once a week is that enough?
Should they have chicken wings everyday as part of their daily allowance or is that too often? I presumed it was OK as that is the only bone they are getting, as I don't think there is much in the AMP packs, but would like to make sure as I don't want to give them too often if it is detrimental. :huh:
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Bones everyday is fine, as they should be the largest portion of their diet. Mine do sometimes have non bone days, mainly because I don't always have them, but they never go more than 2 days without as I notice their 'output' (love that :005:) goes a bit haywire.
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as I notice their 'output' (love that :005:) goes a bit haywire.
:005: :005: I chuckled when I wrote it :005: :005: :shades:
Another bit of good advice, thank you Abby. Is it ok to mix the sardines/pilchards in with the minced meat?
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Keep raw and cooked separate is the rule, and generally a couple of hours apart as well as they are digested at different rates.
Also, I tend to only feed one meat or fish type at once, unless I am mixing in a bit of offal with raw minced meat just in case its too much for their tums. It's fine to feed veg with either cooked or raw though. Having said all that, I do stuff differently for Dyl but he's on part BARF part home cooked diet so I won't drivel on in that direction :005:
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On the anal glands issue, be aware that it can take a couple of months for it to improve so don't be disheartened. I add psyllium husks to the veg as this bulks the stools out but is not abrasive on their intestines. That and the bones has really improved Bellal's anal glands.
Well done for perservering, I know it's scary but it's worth it and you really do get used to it :)
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I couldn't have done it without the excellent advice I have received from you guys though, :clapping: I would have given up first time I went to the butchers!! ::)
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Coco probably has boney meals 3 or 4 days a week and other stuff the rest. A chicken wing or two every day should be fine but as Abby says, you will just need to keep an eye on the "output" :005: and adjust accordingly - it depends on the dog. Sometimes if she has had a recreational bone, Coco's poos can be a bit like rock so I give her a bit of offal or mince. You will soon get the idea. :D
I wouldn't mix tinned sardines with raw but Coco often has a tin of sardines or pilchards with a raw egg on top or some veg. ;)
I have the following figures (can't remember where I got them but they are a guide)
Feed 2-3% of bodyweight ie Coco is 12kg so should have 240-360g a day.
As a guide, the food should be split roughly:
5-15% Bone
70% Protein - egg, meat, fish, tripe
20% Organ meat - liver, kidney etc
Not every day of course - but I reckon over the course of a month Coco's diet works out about right. ;)
Obviously you need to take the veg etc into account too ;)
Honestly it does get easier and you will stop worrying - I just do it all by eye now. I weigh Coco regularly and judge her by eye too and just adjust accordingly. :D
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As Abby says, I'd keep raw and cooked seperate... some dogs seem to be fine mixing, but it's so easy to seperate that it's really not worth the risk of upsetting their tummy.
Bones every day should be fine - as long as they are nice meaty bones!!! Be aware that some bones will have more meat on than others... Billinghurst suggested that 70% of the diet should be meaty bones, but most people now feel that is too much... Joules is right - about 10% pure bone is about right!
I tend to feed bone most days... if she has had a very bone heavy meal (I've just got hold of chicken carcasses and there is very little meat on them) then I give her a bone free day afterwards....
I'll give you a rundown of her typical week, if that helps??
Breakfast Tea
Mon - Tripe and Liver Fish
Tues - Tripe and Liver Lamb bones
Wed - Ox Heart Chicken Wings
Thur - Lamb Heart Pork Rib
Fri - Lamb Heart Chicken Carcass
Sat - Fish Beef Chunks
Sun - Tripe and Liver Chicken Wings
She also gets rabbit mince or tripe mince as kong filling through the week.
This is what I work around, but I really don't think about it that much.... one week she may get more lamb heart, the next more ox heart... the only thing I have to stop and think about is whether she is getting enough liver as she isn't keen on that... and that I don't feed lamb 2 meals in a row, as it upsets her tummy....
:D
Hope that helps!
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Thank you Karma and Joules for all that wonderful information :D Isn't it funny how just reading what someone else does makes it all seem so simple like
I wouldn't mix tinned sardines with raw but Coco often has a tin of sardines or pilchards with a raw egg on top or some veg. ;)
I hadn't thought of putting those three items together! and silly me I didn't think of sardines as being cooked ph34r. I have done a weekly menu but now I am going through the week I can see things that aren't right, so I will amend it accordingly now I am learning more off you guys :D
Do you whizz up the liver/hearts and then freeze them into portions or do you just give it to them straight?
On the anal glands issue, be aware that it can take a couple of months for it to improve so don't be disheartened. I add psyllium husks to the veg as this bulks the stools out but is not abrasive on their intestines. That and the bones has really improved Bellal's anal glands.
Well done for perservering, I know it's scary but it's worth it and you really do get used to it :)
That is really useful to know about the anal glands Claire, I was guessing it make take a while to start showing results but I suppose as always I am impatient :shades:
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Liver I wizz up and freeze into portions... but this is just cos Honey is a fussy little so-and-so and she won't touch liver unless it is liquidised and mixed with tripe... ph34r ::)
Ox heart comes diced from morrisons, so I just freeze this down into portions...
Lamb heart she gets whole... ;)
Should add that Honey also gets a raw egg a couple of times a week... :D
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I just feed liver and heart etc as they are - Coco wasn't keen on them at first (I think it was the slimy texture ::) ) so I used to chop them up and hide them in her mince. :005: Now I just tend to chop it up a bit and she eats it no prob but then Coco is the opposite of a fussy so and so - she is a greedy little piglet. ::) :lol2:
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So for a 12kg dog (I wish! :shades:) that is the guide I am feeding my two on as they are both about 12.8kg how much offal do you feed a week? is it 20%? as I haven't started the on any offal yet, but have bought some liver for them. ;)
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I bought liver too, but will chicken out and make liver bread from it. :embarassed: I will get there, I'll try them on a little when I chop it up. ;) I am going to brave it and get some lamb hearts at the weekend. :P I bet Jade won't touch it though. She is very funny with 'slimy' textures, she circles the chicken wings for ages before touching them and then chomps two or three times and swallows. ::)
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I aim for 15% of her total diet as liver... she normally gets about 200g a week... (most meals are between 125g and 175g). If your dog will eat it, kidney counts as offal too (but tripe and heart don't - these count as muscle meats!).
I wouldn't worry about introducing it at first though.... I think it was about 5 weeks before I started on small amounts of liver - liver can cause upset tummies, so it does pay to do this gradually!
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Well I gave mine a try on the liver today, cut it into small pieces and mixed it with their trip, they loved it. :o I was really surprised at Jade as she will not normally take anything slimy off me, she was sat taking bits of liver out of my fingers. :D Just started them on a small amount, but was really pleased that they liked it. :shades:
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So glad they all like it AnnieM, I haven't given mine any yet, they are supposed to be having it tomorrow morning :D
I have just got back from the Vets with Mollie as her tail had been hanging down drooply since yesterday, last week when it was like that and I took her to the vets, her anal glands were full so they emptied them and she was a lot better after. The vet checked her over today and emptied her glands again as there was some in there but they weren't full, then she saw that her skin was a bit patchy around the base of her tail, which she has also had this a couple of week ago too along with patches on her belly, but once I have put the fuciderm on it, it seems to clear up. Anyway I got a different vet (3rd vet in 3 visits) and again she asked me what I fed her on, I told her raw diet and she seemed to know about it and started to tell me to make sure I was doing it right and giving her enough of a variety to make sure was getting all that she needed. She then started to explain to me that they have seen dogs that have a build up of calcium in their stomachs (I am guessing from too many bones) and they have to come in daily for enemas. I didn't like the sound of that and felt she was most probably trying to explain the downfalls of not doing it right, but it also frightened me too. Anyway she started to tell me about hypo allegenic dried foods as cockers are susceptible to getting skin complaints, but then I said that would only attempt to clear up the skin condition and not help the anal glands. She told me to keep up the fibre content in her diet. At the moment I am using up the Pro Fibre and have some All Bran on standby. She also asked me if Mollie's problems had got worse since I had changed her diet? I said that the reason I had changed it was due to the fact it was starting to get worse, but then in my own mind I do wonder if it hasn't helped :-\ but feel like I should stick with the raw feeding as I will never know otherwise, and when I started her on the raw I did forget to give her the Pro Fibre that she has been on for months. I just came out of there dissapointed, I suppose I am trying to do my best for her, but when they push their opinions on you, you do start to wonder :-\
Sorry about the rant I just felt like I needed to share what had happened.
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Oh dear, sorry your vet was less than supportive. >:( I was very surprised that mine was all for it, but he is an old fashioned country vet and has fed his dogs raw for years. ;) I am sure someone said that it can take up to 6 weeks to start seeing any real benefit from the raw diet, so stick with it for a few more weeks, especially when you can see the dogs enjoying it so much, if you then don't see any change, or a worsening of the condition, then have a rethink. :-\ Sometimes things have to get worse before they can get better, it is like humans who do the detox diets, all the bad stuff had to come out and they can look and feel like c**p, before they start to look and feel better. :D
At least you know you will get all the support you need on here. :D
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Our vets is a country vets too, and the previous two vets I saw were non judgemental. I suppose I am just worried as her condition has worsened more since I have started the raw feeding and I feel a bit responsible :-\ and not knowing why her tail is hanging down and she looks so glum. Maybe she is a little sore around her rear end, but then I go back to thinking I am making it worse :-\. I did forget to give her the Pro Fibre for around a week so maybe this is the knock on effect of that, so I have uped her fibre intake hoping this will sort it out. Daisy is eating the same as Mollie and she is fine :D
They both had chopped liver today and it went down a treat :D
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As others have said, it can take a few weeks for the health benefits of BARF to really show.... in that time some things (especially skin conditions) can actually get worse before they get better.... but in general after a few weeks most owners say their dogs are looking much healthier, and owners of dogs who have suffered with skin complaints say symptoms are much reduced.... (this is my experience from people on the yahoo group ;) ).
I would keep giving Mollie her Pro Fibre/All Bran for a while and once she is settled on BARF you can try to reduce it... but I would reduce it gradually, so that her system has time to adjust... :D
As Clairep4 says, psyllium husks are a great natural way of helping bulk out stools if BARF on its own doesn't quite solve it... :D
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As Clairep4 says, psyllium husks are a great natural way of helping bulk out stools if BARF on its own doesn't quite solve it... :D
I've just been looking on the Dorwest Herbs site and it states that there are Psyllium husks in the Keepers Mix which I am giving her daily, so would that be enough or should I buy some more psyllium husks?
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Not sure, to be honest...
I guess see how she is doing on the Keepers Mix (once she has adjusted to the new diet) and add some more if needbe... :dunno:
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Thanks for that Karma :D I got some more Pro Fibre from the vets today as I will get it back on my insurance until I can get her anal glands sorted and I am happy to change her over ;)
Thankfully we have got the source of her pain with her tail hanging down, it seems that she has hurt her lower back so she is now on anti-inflammatories. I am so glad as it has put my mind at rest about the raw feeding :D The vet checked her anal glands and they were normal :D
Mollie and Daisy are still really enjoying their meals ;)
How are you getting on AnnieM?
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Great thanks, :D they are still loving it and I am finding it much easier to do than I thought, as long as I remember to take it out of the freezer, DO NOT try to thaw tripe in the microwave. :020: The microwave still stinks and it has been dettoxed 3 times. ph34r They are still only having chicken wings for bones though as I haven't managed to source any from anywhere else yet, except pork ribs from tesco, but as they had the squits I decided to wait a while. I am still having problems with Jazmins anal glands too, although she isn't under a vet for hers, I have bought wheatbran to try instead of the allbran, but am going to try the psyllium husk, do you just get it from the health food store?
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Funny you saying about remembering to get the food out of the freezer, one morning around 4am my mind was working overtime and I couldn't sleep and then suddenly I realised I hadn't got their food out, so I had to get up go down to the kitchen and get the AMP block out of the freezer, it was still partly frozen at 6.30am ::) ::)
Thanks for the advice on the Tripe and defrosting ;) I tried to defrost a Lamb AMP block and it ended up cooking, it stinky and smelt the room out, but I am guessing not half as bad as tripe :005:
I am not sure about where to buy the psyllium husks, I have looked on the internet and can see them for sale, but then you have to incure P&P, so not sure :-\
I am keeping Mollie on the ProFibre for the meantime, but might go down the psyllium husk route at some point ;)
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If I ever forget to get the food out of the freezer she either gets fish, or she gets it still frozen!! ;)
Tripe especially!!!
I once tried cooking a mix of liver, egg and tripe in the microwave to get her to eat it and my goodness was that foul!!! :020:
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OMG, I just logged on for a quick browse before I went to bed, not sure I will be able to sleep now, I will have a mental picture in my head and nostrils all night. ph34r
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OMG, I just logged on for a quick browse before I went to bed, not sure I will be able to sleep now, I will have a mental picture in my head and nostrils all night. ph34r
It's not called BARF for nothing ph34r :lol2:
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:005: I had wondered.
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My girls are still really enjoying their meal times :D This morning my OH had to get up 15mins earlier than normal, so I stayed in bed but my two went down stairs to the kitchen with their Dad thinking they were going to get fed, little did they know that they were going to have to wait for me to come down and prepare it :lol2: Daisy just couldn't wait for her brekkie so she started pawing him whilst he was walking around the kitchen trying to get him to feed her :005:
They both aren't fussy about what they are getting, luckily they aren't turning their noses up to the Keepers Mix that I put on their food so that makes life easy.
I am also finding it much easier with having a weekly menu on the wall, so all I have to do is take a quick look and get the stuff out of the freezer. I also thought I would be having to go to the butchers every week and do lots of running around, but all the stuff I bought is lasting a lot longer than I thought :D
So it is all going well, the girls are happy as larry and it's not as hard as I thought ;)