CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Health => Topic started by: Curtisio on October 12, 2004, 05:16:45 PM
-
This is my first post to this forum, so please excuse me if I do anything against etiquette.
We bought home our Black Cocker 6 weeks ago, he's doing great. Doing very well at his training classes.
He is now 5 Months old. We were told by his breeder at the time we picked him up, that his testicles had not dropped (he was only 14 weeks at the time) and the vet would try to get us to have him neutered. They still have not dropped, again, his breeder told us that his cousins testicles did not drop until 2yrs. So we are not worried at the moment. My question is...
His 5mth check up at the vet is due soon, How much pressure should we expect from the vet? and how long should we resist neutering if his testicles do not drop before it becomes a health issue?
-
Vets are very enthusiastic for chopping them off (excuse the phrase).
Their main concern will be that an undecended testicle can become cancerous. You need to weigh up the importance of not neutering him to the risk of health.
If you do not intend breeding from him then the importance of keeping him whole will decreace.
There is no firm 'date' but if your breeder has reccomended a time span from her experiances with his relative then this may be your best guide.
I'm sure someone else on the forum will be along soon with their experiances to help you weigh up the pros and cons for this decision
-
Hi Curtisio
Have either of his testicles dropped? Our vet will removed an undescended one and leave the normal one where it should be - to avoid coat change - but recommends leaving this procedure until the dog is at least 18 months old. You should probably decide what you want to do before you go to the vets as they can be pretty persuasive :rolleyes: :) If you've made up you're mind and have all your reasons sorted out, it's much easier to resist the pressure.
Hope you're pup is settling in well - what's his name?
-
but recommends leaving this procedure until the dog is at least 18 months old.
Have to agree with Shirley's comment here.
Even though your pup's testicles may never descend, he will still go through hormonal development, and I strongly believe that it is important to let a dogs character and personality develop before undergoing any surgery. Of course, it is sensible to monitor his wellbeing, and if anything gives you cause for concern, you should get it checked out straight away.
Welcome to COL by the way, hope you enjoy the site :D
-
Thanks for the advice, We had pretty much decided not to have him castrated because we have heard of character changes etc. So I think we will wait for another year yet...
Our dogs name is Kyro by the way
Thanks a lot
Curtisio
-
Stick to your guns on this one! We're continually asked by family, friends, other owners, WHEN we're going to get Woody castrated and quite simply - we're not!!! He's a beautiful dog, a great pedigree - why mess about?! And I know that our cats' personalities changed once they were neutered and we don't want Woody to change at all. After all - he's been bred for temperament among other things so it would seem a bit pointless.
As long as we're all responsible when we meet bitches on heat or if we have a bitch, that we take steps to ensure they are safe during season, I do feel we should be allowed to make an informed choice.
-
All our pets have always been neutered, male and female, cats and dogs, and they've never had a personality change that was anything but for the better!
And with between 10,000 and 12,000 healthy dogs put to sleep each year in pounds in Britain alone I can see why vets do discuss neutering with owners the way they do. ;)
-
And with between 10,000 and 12,000 healthy dogs put to sleep each year in pounds in Britain alone I can see why vets do discuss neutering with owners the way they do. ;)
I have no problem with vets "discussing" neutering but in too many cases, they are not treating their clients as sensible adults capable of making their own decisions & pressure is being brought on new puppy buyers to neuter almost immediately without giving them the chance to make up their own minds & without pointing out that there may be side effects. Vets have told people who have bought puppies from us that neutering does not cause coat changes in Cockers (false) & that failure to neuter a male dog will mean he will definitely suffer from cancer at a later date (also false). I am not anti-neutering but I am against owners being pressurised into making decisions by being giving misleading information & without being made aware of both the pros & cons of taking that decision ;)
Jane
-
I strongly believe that it is important to let a dogs character and personality develop before undergoing any surgery.
At what age are dogs hormonally mature? We have not finally decided whether to have Molo 'done' but would want to wait until he has finished maturing if we did have him castrated.
Our vet said not before nine months; but from some of the posts on the Leg Cocking thread, I'm guessing it can be longer? How can you tell?
-
Again thanks for all of the views. Me and my wife were not actually thinking of getting Kyro 'Done', because of personality changes etc. We believe with careful ownership, does it NEED doing? plus to add to an earlier thread, Kyro has a good pedigree and fantastic temperment so we are thinking 'Why fix what ain't broken.' I guess we just have to fend of pressure from the snip happy vet, and keep a close eye on Kyro around the girls....
-
And with between 10,000 and 12,000 healthy dogs put to sleep each year in pounds in Britain alone I can see why vets do discuss neutering with owners the way they do. ;)
I have no problem with vets "discussing" neutering but in too many cases, they are not treating their clients as sensible adults capable of making their own decisions & pressure is being brought on new puppy buyers to neuter almost immediately without giving them the chance to make up their own minds & without pointing out that there may be side effects. Vets have told people who have bought puppies from us that neutering does not cause coat changes in Cockers (false) & that failure to neuter a male dog will mean he will definitely suffer from cancer at a later date (also false). I am not anti-neutering but I am against owners being pressurised into making decisions by being giving misleading information & without being made aware of both the pros & cons of taking that decision ;)
Jane
Jane,
Totally agree, We had Billy neutered when he was 18 months old after almost constant pestering by the vet. Abby has been to the vets 3 times twice for her injections and once as company when Billy had his booster, The vet has asked us 3 times if she is to be spayed (No) <_< He then went on to inform us of the health risks and the problems with unwanted pregnancy! pointing to Billy whom he had just examined and he did his op?? :blink: When I commented that we are having a go at showing Abby his track changed again, asking me if I intended to breed her and telling me that they have all the facilities to do the necessary tests? £££££££
I dare say next time I go he will ask again.
Michelle
-
Vets have told people who have bought puppies from us that neutering does not cause coat changes in Cockers (false)
:rolleyes: My vet told me this too <_< . I didn't bother arguing the point :D Thankfully he's not one of the snip happy vets and has never metioned neutering for Morgan. Only discussed it as a possibility for Cooper sometime in the future if things don't right themselves ;)
-
I agree that vet's should explain all the pro's and con's. But I also agree with them suggesting neutering considering that so many dogs and cats are needlessly killed each year. I don't think it's just seen in terms of pound signs...for instance my vet's have a low-cost neutering scheme, it only costs £50 to neuter a giant breed bitch there...they won't make much profit on that! The reason they offer this scheme is because they are dedicated to reducing unwanted pregnancies.
There is no doubt about it, neutering has changed Toby's coat. But his personality? No. He is as loving as ever, and significantly calmer. I do agree with Penny in that respect, all our family dogs and cats have been neutered and it has never altered their personality. However, with larger breeds I think there is a slightly higher risk of bitches spayed too early having urinary incontince, compared to the risk for smaller breeds.
I suppose the main risk is owner's being irresponsible. If owners know the risks of keeping their pets entire and are willing to prevent unplanned pregnancies and so on, fair enough. Personally I don't feel confident enough to take the risk with my own dogs.
-
I have Jimmy and Misty registered with two different vets and spoke to both of them prior to having Jimmy neutered. Both denied all knowledge of Cockers coats changing as a result and also the fact that some castrated males start to attract the sexual advances of other entire males. The latter was my main concern for Jimmy as it would have made his life a misery, I've seen it happen with a couple of males in my park and they are now restricted to mostly onlead walks on the street as this unwanted attention caused them to get into fights. :( The fact my vets wanted to keep schtum about these things just makes me doubt the truth about anything they say now. One quoted me £200 for the op, the other gave a figure of £100 even though they are within about 2 miles of each other..... which goes to show there are some vets out there that see this as a good moneyspinner.
Since the op, I've noticed no change in personality in Jimmy and fortunately he hasn't suffered any feminisation to attract males. The only downside, other than coat change, is that he is now obsessed with food and I'm having to re-train him to stop trying to scavenge from anyone eating food in the park. Previously I once inadvertantly tied him to park railings next to some KFC chicken bones, whereas then he didn't bat an eyelid as he knew he wasn't to pick at stray food, now he wouldn't give it a second thought and would wolf them down in seconds. :( He's far more likely to not respond to recall over an illicit meal now than he ever was over in-season bitches.
I fully understand the pro-neutering stance taken by those involved in rescue as it must be heartbreaking seeing all theses unwanted dogs put down. But at the same time I do wish vets and some pro-neuterers wouldn't attempt to hide the negative aspects in their aim to reduce the amount of unwanted litters. Tell the whole truth and let the individual decide, I say. :)
-
I agree Colin. I also agree that *some* vet's see it as a moneyspinner which is sad...with ALL treatments we as the customers should be given all the information. I do think pet-owners have a hard time with vet's in terms of making informed choices...some vet's would only ever recommend annual vaccination, their own prescription foods (which they make commission on) and so on.
Can't say I've noticed much difference with food with Toby as he's always been a glutton :rolleyes: But I am finding it harder to keep him at the right weight now...he gains weight more easily, and I've had to give him supplements as his coat became very fluffy.
-
I strongly believe that it is important to let a dogs character and personality develop before undergoing any surgery.
At what age are dogs hormonally mature? We have not finally decided whether to have Molo 'done' but would want to wait until he has finished maturing if we did have him castrated.
Our vet said not before nine months; but from some of the posts on the Leg Cocking thread, I'm guessing it can be longer? How can you tell?
I would say as a rough 'guestimate' 18 months to 2 years old for a cocker, allowing for some being faster or slower to mature than others.
-
I have a very good relationship with my vets and we often share snippets of information with each other. Obviously I ask them health related issues and they ask me stud and whelping (normal whelping not C-Section) questions.
I’ve never had a vet who has even mentioned neutering to me, however I guess that’s because they know I’m a breeder. I’m not so sure they treat their average pet owning clients in the same manner!
One topic of conversation was about retained testicles. According to my vet (and many others I’ve spoken to) it was considered good practice to neuter dogs that had retained testicles due to the risk of cancer at a later stage. Current research (according to my vet) is that they have not found an increased risk of cancer in males who have a retained testicle and they are inclined to leave things alone unless the owners want to have their dog neutered anyway.
The other thing to keep in mind is that neutered dogs have an increased risk of prostate cancer. Given the prostate is internal it’s hard to know if your dog has this condition until it’s quite advanced. Apparently more dogs die of this cancer than testicular cancer as any changes in the testicles can be spotted more readily and treated at an early stage.
Chris
-
One topic of conversation was about retained testicles. According to my vet (and many others I’ve spoken to) it was considered good practice to neuter dogs that had retained testicles due to the risk of cancer at a later stage. Current research (according to my vet) is that they have not found an increased risk of cancer in males who have a retained testicle and they are inclined to leave things alone unless the owners want to have their dog neutered anyway.
The other thing to keep in mind is that neutered dogs have an increased risk of prostate cancer. Given the prostate is internal it’s hard to know if your dog has this condition until it’s quite advanced. Apparently more dogs die of this cancer than testicular cancer as any changes in the testicles can be spotted more readily and treated at an early stage.
Chris
That's really interesting Chrissy. Do you know if and of these reseach findings are published on the web - I'd be keen to find out more. If you're just swapping the risk of one cancer for the risk of another that sheds a whole new light on it.
-
That's really interesting Chrissy. Do you know if and of these reseach findings are published on the web - I'd be keen to find out more. If you're just swapping the risk of one cancer for the risk of another that sheds a whole new light on it.
Hi
I’m not sure that it’s a case of swapping one risk of cancer for another! I think what my vet was saying was that it was considered practical for health reasons (the avoidance of cancer) to remove retained testicles. New research (will ask him where the research is published, at a guess I should think it will be the Vet Record) seems to indicate that a retained testicle poses no greater risk of cancer for the dog (due to being retained) than it would do if the testicle were descended. As I said before, vets will still remove the testicle if the owner wants the dog neutered anyway but this way an owner now has a choice. Many owners don’t want their dogs neutered but under the old guidance they had no choice if the dog had a retained testicle!
As for the prostate cancer well I’ve spoken to my vet about this and also found a web site that explains this in great length. My vet agrees (from his practical experience) with the views that are explained in this article. Have a look, it makes interesting reading!
Issues Regarding Castration In Dogs (http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/castrationindogs.html)
Chris
-
Well, that article made very interesting reading. Didn't realise that neutering young could make the dog taller :huh: (Maybe should have tried that on Dallas ;) :lol: ) Wonder if thats what happened in Vegas' case ;)
-
Current research (according to my vet) is that they have not found an increased risk of cancer in males who have a retained testicle and they are inclined to leave things alone unless the owners want to have their dog neutered anyway.
Steve Dean (a respected breeder/vet) mentioned this research in one of his columns in Dog World some time ago - I think the orginal findings were published in the Veterinary Record as Chris mentioned but I will try & find the article as I cut it out for future reference & filed it away somewhere ... not sure where at the moment :lol:
Jane
-
The way I see it, for a dog to develop cancer in a retained testicle is just as serious as developing prostate cancer as it is also internal and it wouldn't be easy to spot - okay, the article states that most testicular tumours are benign but they are still tumours that I assume could grow to quite a size (possible causing damage to other organs) before you'd spot it. Surely the best course of action is to remove the retained one at an appropriate time, minimising the risk that your dog will develop testicular without you spotting it. It also means that you avoid the increased risk of prostate cancer caused by neutering. I'm a complete novice in this subject and I have no idea if any of that made sense - it was probably complete drivel!! :rolleyes: ;)
This is all so confusing :blink: . I, like everyone else, want my dogs to live as long as I do but having accepted that this isn't going to happen I want to make the correct measures to keep them healthy for as long as possible. I know that left alone it's just as likely that Cooper would live a long and happy life without having a problem with his 'missing part' :rolleyes: but if he did develop cancer in it I would never forgive myself :( It's so hard to know what to do for the best <_<
-
Hi Shirley
Not sure what the answer is! It’s still my understanding that cancer of the testes is very rare compared with prostate cancer and I guess the risk of any dog having a tumour (benign or otherwise) in a testicle (retained or otherwise) is very slim. I think most male dogs (from what the vet was saying) would be dead from old age before any testicular tumour claimed their lives.
I can see your point about a tumour growing inside a dog and pressing on something it shouldn’t being a problem (guess I have no answer for that!). Mind you, the operation to remove a retained testicle is often far from straightforward and can be quite complex I think the whole new approach to leaving testicles where they are (if retained) is part of a process of weighing up the risk factor of an anaesthetic, and the complexity of the surgery. I don’t think that vets know how complex the operation will be until they actually have the dog open on the table. The retained testicle can be anywhere from near the kidneys (approx. where the ovaries would be situated in a bitch) to into the groin area. The latter location is the quickest and safest location for a simple operation. Just my thoughts. :rolleyes:
Chrissy
-
Well that article was really interesting reading and has made me feel much better about leaving both my boys intact.
Now all I have to hope for is that they don't start being aggressive to one another... Although Neo's a bit of a soft wimp so at this stage it doesn't look like it's going to happen ;)
-
It is such a hard decision isn't it - and the advice is so conflicting depending on who you talk to and what you read :( The article was very interesting and it is nice to know what I need to keep an eye out for in the future. Brogan was neutered at exactly 12 months old - I had originally wanted to keep him intact. He however had such a high sex-drive that he was a risk to himself - his need to roam was making it impossibly difficult keep him within the home/garden - fortunately we only ever had one successful escape and he hadn't gone out our road. With Brogan I was more bothered about him becoming a road traffic accident victim - if his urges were that strong at 12 months I would hate to see what he would have been like at say 3 years old with a female in season in the neighbourhood. Since being neutered his roaming needs have stopped completely and he can now pass a blade of grass without the need to mark it :lol:
Bailey has a retained testicle so still have to make the decision with him :( I have also been warned that leaving the undescended testicle inside could result in it twisting at some point on its stalk :( Closer to the time - I will have to weigh up every pro and con to hopefully make my individual decision. Not looking forward to that one - although am so far still thinking of neutering. I do however appreciate knowing all the risks before I reach a final decision.
-
:( Danny had a retained testicle and we had him neutered at nine months. It has effected his coat but his personality is wonderful, and always has been. It is true though that it's a complicated procedure at times. Danny was under for a long time, according to the vet. They really struggled to find the teste as it was deep inside him, and he had about ten stitches from his groin up to his belly button. No regrets though, as he's turned out fine, :D but the day of the op was a nightmare.
-
Am glad Danny recovered well Becky :)
My vet has already warned me that Bailey's neutering could be extensive :( - on all examinations now the 2nd testicle hasn't been felt at all - she reckons the chances of it coming down now are very slim. As it is also not a routine neutering she has advised we submit an insurance claim when the time comes. I am hoping to be able to leave the decision for a few more months yet - but that will also depend on how well the boys get on now that Bailey is maturing <_< So far so good! Writing this now - I think I have already made my mind up though to go ahead with the op - still hoping it will stop its hide n seek game though :D Doubt it but will remain optimistic nonetheless!
If neutering makes their personality more wonderful (it did with Brogan- turned a sex fiend into a lovely family pet) then Bailey will be a true Teddy Bear - he is already Mr Softie, can't imagine him even more laid back :blink: :lol:
-
Good luck with whatever you decide. :D
-
Have just been reading the posts and had a completely different response from my vet. When we took Bailey for his second vaccination at 10 weeks old, we asked about neutering, thinking this was the responsible thing to do. Our vet said that he didnt believe in neutering dogs just for the sake of neutering. He knew that it affected a cocker's coat, and we should only really get him neutered if his behaviour was particularly bad. Must admit I was quite "thrown" by this at the time, but in our case it's worked out well. We have a lovely, well behaved, entire dog with a lovely coat. Im not sure what he would say about the unwanted pregnancy arguement though.
-
Hello Elisa
It's good to hear of a vet taking a different view!
Sadly as you've already probably guessed many vets use the vaccination visit as a prime opportunity to try and book the puppy in for his/her neutering operation!
All I can say is well done to your vet for not jumping on the automatic neutering bandwagon :rolleyes:
Chrissy
-
Fascinating reading this. I've asked all the vets at our practice their recommendations on neutering Indie, and they've mostly been for it. One of them told me that testicular cancer (even though both are descended) was a real risk. Is it?
Indie has a cataract, and we have no intention of breeding from him, and he's never out alone - I don't want him going through surgery unless he needs to. He's placid, well behaved, and totally loving - he also seems totally uninterested in sex.
I'm torn on this to be honest, but he's only 1 so we have time to think carefully. I'm strongly leaning towards no.