CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Tidge on November 02, 2004, 07:46:45 PM
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Hi all,
I am making a request for help for a friend of mine who's having problems with her 17 month old Tri Cocker.
Situation = household of 5, Mum/Dad Boy aged 12 Girl aged 9 and Boy 6.
They have been trying so hard with Archie and now I think they are at their wits end and I can see that the boy will end up in rescue or put down if they don't receive help.
Basically, he was a bit of a handful as a pup and I did warn the mum then that she needed to toughen up, (she's soft with her children too!), he has seemed OK/manageable until the last 3 months. He has taken to nipping at the children and growling, which has now turned into almost attacks for no apparant reason. I have tried to explain that they need to demote him and take away priviledges but I don't think mum is strong enough to follow it through. They chose not to use a crate (against my advice) when he was a pup wanting him to have run of the house. Well he's got exactly that now.
She's been to the vet and he confirmed that he is otherwise fit and healthy, the vet has worried her and said that he is past his teenage years and should have grown out of such behaviour, (not sure I agree with this, for Cockers). I have spent time with Archie and he is a beautiful and strong willed dog, and unfortunately they are a lovely friendly but soft family, who have loved the cuddly puppy stage but are now bored with their boy and can't understand why he doesn't behave like an adult.
I feel I can get him sorted but I have my own dog and her pups to consider and wouldn't take him on whilst they are still with me. He needs some strong handling and they need to build up some confidence with him as now everytime they feed/pet/handle Archie he growls and they back off with fear.!!! I tried to explain that the growling should be ignored, lots of dogs growl but because he has bitten the eldest boy (although I think he was probably provoked to some extent) they all fear him, but don't seem to want to follow the advice given to them as they think it would be too cruel. The vet is suggesting medication if the situation doesn't improve and they don't want to go down that route and will probably :( have him rehomed or sadly put down.
Can anyone offer some help, they do love him but maybe too much and not for his own good. I'm very frustrated with them, is there information they can read or someone who might be able to take on the dog, train him so that they can still keep Archie. Sorry to sound desperate, but I think its just down to the handling.
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I would think that they need to see a trainer and/or behaviourist so they can see exactly how to deal with him. Sometimes, if they can watch an exercise being carried out with their own eyes and see the results, it may spur them on to try and change their way of thinking :unsure: He certainly doesn't sound to me like hes a bad dog - just one who gets away with murder ;)
I have a friend who also struggled with her dog. I was trying to help her to the best of my abilities, gave her some advice, some exercises she could work on etc, but she was also too soft and wouldn't put any of them into practice. As a result, the dogs behaviour got worse and she kept coming to me and asking me what she can do. I told her that in no uncertain terms that if she had done as i had suggested months ago, his behaviour would have probably changed for the better by this time :angry: Honestly, it was like banging your head against a wall :angry: Anyway, I told her that her that if she wasn't going to work things through with him then her choices were to either put up with his behaviour or find him a new home where someone would be willing to work with him. He's now with another friend of mine and is like a different dog ;)
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Thanks Gill
Its exactly the same situation here. She wants a better dog, but doesn't agree with the training methods etc. Well she's not done so well using her own methods.
I've tried over and over to explain that dogs don't just turn out nice, (she's always using Sandy as a comparison) it takes training and persistance and consistency, but it all falls on deaf ears.
She's going to be put in touch with a behaviourist via the vet but to be honest, I think she needs a break from him, time to see that he can behave when she's not about and somebody else can manage him so that she can see the good in the dog and then realise its her with the problem not the dog.
When I visit, I walk straight in, ignore the dog and he always ends up sitting on my feet like the best behaved dog in the world waiting to receive some petting. Somehow the nice behaviour can't be seen and to much focus is being put on the bad behaviour. Until last week her husband didn't think the dog had a problem until the dog snapped at one of the childrens friends. Do you think she should muzzle him for the time being?? I think she wants someone else to sort it out as she is becoming a nervous wreck around him. If I can persuade her to hold out until my pups leave at the end of this month, I will take him on for a month or so.
It really is like banging your head against a brick wall :angry:
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I don't suppose the breeder could help by taking the dog back for a week or two to provide some breathing space? It's something I have done once or twice & most good breeders I hope would do the same. Just a long shot I know, specially if this chap came from commercial kennels.
Jane
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Whereabouts is the dog.
I always find this really sad to see as I know another cocker in this situation. To date they have been offered help and haven't taken up any advice given (which they asked for) and when it got desparate 2 rescue places (for rehab/retraining and rehoming) were found on separate occasions but were then turned down as owners then decided they would prefer dog put to sleep than placed in rescue (dog is 4 years old now). This dog now goes from bad to worse but there's no will to help him (they just deal with each problem badly) and a lot of the dogs problems are down to mishandling.
Trouble is if your friend's dog goes away for short while and is fine then owners could still mishandle him when he returns as training is an ongoing thing especially for difficult dogs.
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It does sound like the handling is all wrong - i agree with Jane - the breeder should be the first port of call. I would certainly help as much as i could, although we have never needed to!
For goodness sake don't let them put him down!!!
clare
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I've made my friend promise to inform me before she makes any decision.
Her breeder is unlikely to be of much help, no contract etc and I think she thought she was doing the dog a favour by purchasing him, although he is KC registered.
Thanks for your help and I'm sure between us we can save a Cockers life.
Just a thought, she did say that his behaviour has got worse since he was neutered, is there anything in that?????
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I live in the Hertfordshire area and have dog trainer who does 1x1s, classes etc, his wife runs a boarding kennels and so he often will take dogs on and work with them, videoing his methods and then teaching the owners how to handle the dog. He will tell them the same as you, get a crate, and start treating the dog like a dog, restricting access to areas of the house and ensuring they all are consistent with their approach etc.
The trainer often takes unwanted dogs, re-trains them and then they go out to working homes. This happened to a tri-colour cocker of a woman in our class who had exactly the same problems you describe. The dog used to guard the mother of the family and slept on her bed etc. He bit on more then one occasion but the last time got one of the kids faces and she felt she had to get rid of him. :(
The cocker spaniel was retrained and now works with the deaf, he's never shown any aggression since.
I can pass on his email address if it is of any use... Or I could speak to Hubby about a 3rd dog :D
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Thanks Taniac
His email address would be great, I've just spoken to my friend and let her know that their are other Cocker lovers who are willing to help her and she looked like a weight had been lifted from her shoulder but felt bad and though she had been a bad owner. I reassure her and let her know that even the best Cocker owners in the country have problems, but its seeking help at the right time that matters.
Apparently over the weekend, whilst over the field walking, Archie decide to lurch at her 6 year and managed to pin him to the floor and continued to jump all over the 6 year old until he was dragged off, she said she was worried more because the whole time he was wagging his tail and seemed to be enjoying it, I said he probably was!!!! All that attention for being so naughty!!!!
Thanks for your assistance I definately think its a case of training the dog and the owners, so you chap would be ideal
PS We're are in West Sussex
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I've PMed you the trainers details, I would be happy to speak to him as well if it helps.
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I have seen adverts in the dog magazines from companies that will take in dogs and train them, then go through the methods with the owners at the end of the course. I've no idea where these companies are based, what their qualifications/credentials are or how much they charge etc. I've thrown out all my dog mags so can't check for you, but if you get a copy of Your Dog there is probably an advert in there.
It sounds like this family need to do something as quickly as possible as things are likely to get far worse without professional help and advice. I hate to say it but maybe it would be better for all concerned if the poor dog was rehomed. :( Having a fresh start with new owners that are more able to put into action the required discipline and training may benefit him.
Edited; Sorry, I hadn't read Taniac's posts before posting my own. :blink: Hopefully that trainer will be of some help to the family. :)
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Thanks Colin
Personally I agree with you, although they would be heartbroken as they do honestly love Archie if only a little too much for his own good.
I've still got my Your Dog and think you're right, I did read up about some such place, I'll check it again although they sound expensive!!
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By the sounds of it the humans in the family need to be trained first. His 'attack' on the son sounds more like a puppy rough and tumble - he thought he was playing! This puppy has had no boundaries set so does not know when to stop. If he has never been taught then you can't expect him to know.
Sounds like someone going to the house to teach the whole family is going to be their best bet! Otherwise he is going to get the message that the trainer is his superior and his family is his subordinates - which will solve nothing!
clare
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Again, I've thought about that too, that why I was hoping that we could find someone experienced enough to take them all on, but give the family and Archie a break for a couple of weeks, even letting them miss having the dog about so that they can feel whether its just a case of having had enough of dog ownership or wanting to correct the dog, the latter would hopefully encourage them to try harder with the training.
I'm quite happy to have Archie with me after some assessment (and once my pups have left) and let him intergrate back into their lives in a controlled situation and slowly. Get them to see him controlled in my house and let him have day trips to his own house, see how he gets on, and bit by bit and once they are following the right training methods, let him back home to live.
Thanks everyone for your PM's and help, I'll be passing on info later so you may get a call.
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Her breeder is unlikely to be of much help, no contract etc and I think she thought she was doing the dog a favour by purchasing him, although he is KC registered.
Just a quick comment; in my experience not all breeders, even really good ones, use contracts - we didn't get one from Molo's breeder, but I know that I could turn to her for anything I needed.
Obviously this particular breeder may not be so reputable, but I didn't want any new, or prospective owners to worry unecessarily.
Sorry MODS, off topic, I know :rolleyes:
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Archie decide to lurch at her 6 year and managed to pin him to the floor and continued to jump all over the 6 year old until he was dragged off, she said she was worried more because the whole time he was wagging his tail and seemed to be enjoying it, I said he probably was!!!!
:lol: :lol: :lol: Of course he was - what a wonderful game!
We are currently reinforcing to Molo the fact that our 4 yr old daughter is NOT another puppy, and is a more superior member of the pack; he thinks its great fun to jump all over her, especially when she shrieks and giggles in response.
I hope Archie and his family find a solution soon; such a shame they are having problems. Are there any dog training classes nearby? I am thinking less about the training, as I think the basics are needed first, but more about the "peer pressure" element that would come from other dog owners and the trainers, who will be saying the same as you are; she may begin to realise that what is being suggested isn't cruel at all :rolleyes:
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Hi Rachel
My comment about contracts was purely meant to mean that they had nothing to go back to the breeder with, they weren't invited to call if they had any problems.
In fact she told me earlier that she did call them once when the pup was about 20 weeks old, because he was still nipping and the breeder told her that she uses a broom handle on hers!!!! Hence shes reluctant to contact her again.
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I'm afraid I agree with Colin, I think this dog would be better off rehomed. The family seem unwilling or unable to deal with this situation. The dog has obviously had no rules or boundries set and is pleasing him self. I my opinion this is a very dangerous situation, if the dog does decide to push his luck he will be PTS. Not his fault, this is down to lack of training. I don't think medication will help, he needs a firm kind hand!
If they want to work this out they need to start now, urge them to contact a behaviourist, today! If they feel they can't go on, then there is help out there to find a new home. Do it quickly before things get much worse which I fear they will.
As for the breeder taking a broom to her dogs :angry:
Tracey.
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In fact she told me earlier that she did call them once when the pup was about 20 weeks old, because he was still nipping and the breeder told her that she uses a broom handle on hers!!!! Hence shes reluctant to contact her again.
Ah!
No support from there, then; I'm guessing that his breeding was not selected for temperment either, which is not really going to help the poor chap, he has both youth and possibly 'active genes' to overcome :angry:
Having re-read your post, I do see what you meant about contracts; sorry :ph34r:
I would love to hear that his family decide to change their approach and learn how to provide him with a secure, loving home; I have seen miracles performed when a behaviourist manages to educate a owner/family as to how to handle their dog; but if not, I do hope that he finds another good home soon.
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:police:
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Hi, It is there first dog and I think she has unreal expectations of what to receive from a 17 month old boy (dog of course).
She has now warned her children that he might need to go away for a while and that they are all going to have to change their approach to him, (so that's something at least). The 9 year old daughter was distraught and chose to spend the night on the dog bed with him!!! My poor friend doesn't know which way to turn, short of me moving in with her for a while and literaterally taking over, I'm not sure she's strong enough to treat him as a 'proper' dog and to stop feeling bad because he isn't allowed the run of the house.
I've put her in touch with another Cockeronline member and provided her with numbers of behaviourist passed on via COL, thanks, PM if anyone hears from her, so I can stop nagging her to get this sorted. ;)
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:-\ :)