CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: LindyLou on August 02, 2010, 10:13:10 AM
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Just wanted to know your views on harnesses?
Baxter is not "bad" on the lead, but will always walk slightly ahead keeping a little tension on the lead. I am therefore, always concious of any damage to his neck, particularly if I try to correct this behaviour and have him come to my side on a loose lead.
I have tried:
Stopping - To which he will either - stop/sit or turn in a circle and come back to my side.(This pulls his neck when I stop).
Little pulls to the side - To which he basically ignores.
Treats - Totally ignores.
So was thinking of a harness? Thinking along the lines of no neck pulling and may help with the loose lead walking?
Or, am I being lazy and do we just need more training?
Have any of you found the harnessses to be a big help?
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I use a harness and it seems to work well, it nice and soft, the only thing I have found is that the fur get matted where the harness has been. Sorry cant help with the walking on a lead, but am sure someone will come along and give you advice.
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These are very good
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Medium-Easy-Walk-Dog-Training-Harness-Walking-Pets-Dogs-/290459240745?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Dogs&hash=item43a0b84929
Will stop him pulling, so you can work on your loose lead walking, using a method that works for you ;)
Have you tried this? -Rather than alway walking in a straight line, change direction after every few steps and reward when his lead is loose, it does not matter what directon you go in, even turning toward your dog or walking backwards. He will have to pay attention to you, as, he will not be able to predict where you are going to go next :005: Try it in the garden first so you don't look like a complete nutter :D
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Have you tried this? -Rather than alway walking in a straight line, change direction after every few steps and reward when his lead is loose, it does not matter what directon you go in, even turning toward your dog or walking backwards. He will have to pay attention to you, as, he will not be able to predict where you are going to go next :005: Try it in the garden first so you don't look like a complete nutter :D
I don't mind looking like a nutter - come to terms with it now :005: :005:
I have tried lots of things Bluebell, including what you have mentioned! His walking is so much better than it used to be, but I just would like to perfect it.
Will maybe go for your harness suggestion ;)
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I'm a big fan of harnesses and also (at least whilst teaching them to heel) using two points of contact. Bella has a Mekuti harness (http://www.mekuti.co.uk/) and Zorro has one of the new TTouch harnesses which you can get from Tilley Farm - really nice as they have a neck clip so it's great if your dog is worried by having things put over its head.
A dog that is pulling on a collar in any way is putting quite alot of strain on its neck and is also more likely to be reactive to oncoming dogs/pushchairs etc because of the added stress of having something pushing on its windpipe (plus the fact that the dog is out of balance). If you try pushing the side of your hand into your windpipe even gently, it's not particularly pleasant - now imagine what that feels like if you push harder or suddenly get yanked (even if it's inadvertently).
The idea of using two points of contact to help a dog walk in balance (i.e. without pulling) is as follows:
1. A dog that is pulling on the lead is basically using you to balance against - if you were to let go of the lead the dog would have to find its feet. In TTouch terms we always say "balanced in body = balanced in mind", so if your dog is using you to balanced against then it's not balanced by itself and is therefore more likely to be react to other dogs etc. Also a dog that is pulling will build up different muscles on one side of its body to the other which in turn puts the whole body out of balance.
2. Any time we pull on the lead we trigger the opposition reflex - try getting someone to hold onto the end of a lead and then pull it, I guarantee they will pull back with the same force, without even thinking. So every time you pull back, your dog pulls forward.
3. We have two points of contact so that the dog cannot rely on you for balance, because as soon as it leans into one of the contacts you release it and use the other contact to give a gentle upward signal. This way the dog learns that it's impossible to keep leaning out against the lead because you won't hold onto the other end.
Sounds easier than it is in practise but it does work. The key is to stay up by the dog's shoulder giving gentle upward signals, alternating which contact you are giving the signal on. If the dog starts to get ahead (which a pully dog will, guaranteed) then you need to firmly stroke the lead, hand over hand, as you walk back up to the dog's shoulder - by stroking the lead rather than pulling on it, you avoid triggering the opposition reflex and you encourage the dog to slow down rather than encouraging it to pull harder.
It does take some practise though - I've worked with a couple of seriously strong pullers and it was a challenge but it worked in the end :D
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I have a sporn harness for Brodie and think it's great - she tends to walk well on the lead but in certain situations (ie visiting places she's never been before) she does pull and for those she wears the harness. I am planning to get a mekuti harness though as I've heard good things about them :blink:
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Some fab advice....we went to a T Touch practioner who also recommended the Mekuti Harness. I have tried it a couple of times with Nina & its fab. :blink: I just need to get the hang of it. ph34r Also the Dog Games Fleece Harnesses are good.
Personally i never use collars for lead walking because i worry so much about hurting their necks.
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Thanks for all the info!
Claire I've had a look on the Tilley Farm website. Is it the "Step in Harness" you refer to? I can't seem to get a good look at the harness and see if it has any padding?
Also not sure what size I would need - the medium?
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I use the Easy Walk Harness for both Ellie and Lexi (as rescue dogs their heelwork training left a lot to be desired), but now they put Misha & Roly to shame. The harness leads from the chest rather than the neck or nose. The link below also shows a further link to a youtube demonstration.
http://www.friendsoffido.co.uk/easy-walk-harness-c12.html
I think its quite similar to the Mekuti harness
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Thanks for all the info!
Claire I've had a look on the Tilley Farm website. Is it the "Step in Harness" you refer to? I can't seem to get a good look at the harness and see if it has any padding?
Also not sure what size I would need - the medium?
Ah, I think actually they're not advertising them as yet as they're still getting stock together. The step-in ones are not the TTouch harnesses. The TTouch ones are green and are branded with a TTouch label but they're very new, Sarah had the first ones in May and I emailed her the other day and they were waiting for different sizes to come in. You might be best emailing her directly to find out what she has. I think Zorro has the small size but not 100% sure as I just measured him up at Tilley Farm and bought one on the spot. They do matching leads as well :D
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I use the Easy Walk Harness for both Ellie and Lexi (as rescue dogs their heelwork training left a lot to be desired), but now they put Misha & Roly to shame. The harness leads from the chest rather than the neck or nose. The link below also shows a further link to a youtube demonstration.
http://www.friendsoffido.co.uk/easy-walk-harness-c12.html
I think its quite similar to the Mekuti harness
These are different to the Mekutis - the Easy-Walk works in a similar way to a Sporn in that it's about restricting the dog's movement by tightening when it pulls:
"The Easy Walk Harness' unique front-chest leash attachment stops pulling by tightening slightly across your dog's chest and shoulder blades. The gentle pressure steers your dog to the side and redirecting his attention back towards you." Personally I think they talk about the opposition reflex incorrectly but that's just me being fussy! :shades: :lol2:
Mekuti and TTouch harnesses just have extra D rings so that you can have a double-ended lead attached to the chest and the back or side, but if the dog pulls, nothing tightens up and the dog can still pull, so you do have to put in the work of being in the correct position and stopping your naughty hands from automatically pulling backwards whenever the dog pulls forwards (a tricky old habit to beat, believe me!). So it's more about re-educating the dog to walk on its own 4 feet.
Supergirl, just out of interest do you find that your two now don't pull at all (as in could you walk them in a normal harness and they'd automatically walk by your side, or would they pull as they didn't have the anti-pull harness on)? I did look at the Easy Walk harnesses a few months ago and wondered if they worked. I always try to keep an open mind as what works for one owner may not work for another.
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Supergirl, just out of interest do you find that your two now don't pull at all (as in could you walk them in a normal harness and they'd automatically walk by your side, or would they pull as they didn't have the anti-pull harness on)? I did look at the Easy Walk harnesses a few months ago and wondered if they worked. I always try to keep an open mind as what works for one owner may not work for another.
To be honest I haven't tried walking them in a standard harness since I got these. The dogs can still pull even in the Easywalk harness - like everything you have to do the work as in the video. If I walk the dogs individually in the harness, they will walk very nicely - I initially got the harness so that my mum could walk Lexi easily, without any danger of pulling her over and the harness worked very well.
My main problem is when I walk all dogs together, if they see anything interesting their cumulative pulling is very strong and the harness does diffuse this - a lot of it is my fault as I don't practice enough lead walking except to and from the car.
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I have Mekuti Harnesses for the girls but I also have the Ruffwear Webmaster harnesses too for when I go places that they may need lifting out of ph34r
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We use a harness on Glen as no matter how much we tried we failed to be successful in training him to walk nicely on a lead. It is completely our fault as wear we live the leads come out about 3 times a year for special occasions and unless I want arms like a gorilla a harness is the only way for us ;)
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If you have a dog that pulls on the lead, then a harness is definitely going to help stop them throttling themselves ;) I have a Red Dingo one which you attach the lead to a ring on the back.
I haven't really found anything that completely prevents pulling (though I haven't tried the mekuti harness) - I have tried Sporn (effective for about 2 days!); a Premiere Easy Walk harness (effective for a bit longer, but didn't really fit very well, and made a horrid jangly noise all the time!) and the most successful was the Halti harness, but even that failed to stop Chloe pulling through it when we walked by livestock.
I've given up on non-pull harnesses now; I just keep having to revisit basic lead training and I also spend a lot of time teaching walk to heel off lead.
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I have pretty much all of the harness' mentioned above including the mekuti which works well and the easy walk which i also use as well as the halti.
I still do use two points of connection if I am going somewhere new and exciting however I do find using two points of connection with some clients takes some practice!
A lot of folks just can't seem to coordinate so with anything what works for one sometimes doesn't work for another.
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Alfie is turning into a bit of a puller. I have tried the standing still technique and this doesnt work and also the changing direction technique. This helped a bit but within 5 mins he's doing it again no matter how many times i repeat it. Walking with a treat in my hand and treating him when the lead loosens works, but the moment he see's i no longer have a treat he just tanks off again ::) and i cant really rely on having a treat in my pocket everywhere i go :-\. Is it adivsed for 8 month old pups to wear these harnesses or should i perservere and hope he grows up a bit ph34r? Im just scared he's going to damage his little neck.
Thanks xx
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We used a Halti harness with a double ended lead for Lizzy for a few months because we failed to stop her pulling using any of the other methods. It was an instant success :D couldn't believe how much difference it made :005: :005: we progressed to just using the lead on the chest ring with no bother.
Once we had her walking really nicely with no pulling at all we went back to collar and lead to check how she was doing and found that she was really good. So much so that we now only use the harness very occassionally if she shows signs of forgetting that she's supposed to walk to heel or there are going to be lots of distractions. :luv: :luv:
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I'll probably get attacked for saying this, but I don't like them. Most of the time they only mask unresolved training issues. Dog harnesses came about, because of activities that required pulling (tracking, sledding, cart dogs). It distributes the weight to the strongest parts of the dog so if you think about it, don't harnesses only encourage pulling? Yes, it prevents damage to a dog's neck, but you're not exactly training the dog how to walk properly. It's my personal belief that a dog isn't properly leash trained if it always has to be walked on a harness or any other kind of "training" gimmick like a head halter. I consider my dogs leash trained only once I can walk them on just a leash and collar with absolutely no tension on the lead.
I tried a harness for a short while with my spaniel until I got tired of the constant matting on his chest and arm pits and until I realized that he wasn't exactly learning how to walk properly, because the harness was only restraining him, not training him. I suppose some people are fine with not actually addressing the source of why the dog is pulling while on a leashed walk, but I find that having a well-trained dog that can walk nicely on just a leash and collar is extremely rewarding and a great source of pride for me.
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I am a complete convert to the Mekuti harness. It saved my sanity with our lovable but exuberantly uncontrollable new rescue dog. Gillon is a working cocker who had probably been given up after an extended period in his old home without any exercise. When he arrived on the open fells of Cumbria, he couldn't believe his luck. The result was chaos! He tried to pack every experience he had ever missed into a single walk. My arm was beginning to stretch further than Alice in Wonderland's. I can't believe what difference the harness made in only a week. We got his lead walking under control in a single day. He now walks to heel beautifully, even with only one end of the lead attached. Because he is now a lot calmer, he has also begun to listen. As a result, his off-lead work has improved a thousand-fold. The photo shows one of Gill obeying a command that was unthinkable only two weeks ago - 'Leave' on a much-loved tennis ball - alongside his new sister, Cassie. Life is a great deal more enjoyable for all of us.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f103/AnnieGregory/Stay.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f103/AnnieGregory/GillonbyDave.jpg)
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I'll probably get attacked for saying this, but I don't like them. Most of the time they only mask unresolved training issues. Dog harnesses came about, because of activities that required pulling (tracking, sledding, cart dogs). It distributes the weight to the strongest parts of the dog so if you think about it, don't harnesses only encourage pulling? Yes, it prevents damage to a dog's neck, but you're not exactly training the dog how to walk properly. It's my personal belief that a dog isn't properly leash trained if it always has to be walked on a harness or any other kind of "training" gimmick like a head halter. I consider my dogs leash trained only once I can walk them on just a leash and collar with absolutely no tension on the lead.
I tried a harness for a short while with my spaniel until I got tired of the constant matting on his chest and arm pits and until I realized that he wasn't exactly learning how to walk properly, because the harness was only restraining him, not training him. I suppose some people are fine with not actually addressing the source of why the dog is pulling while on a leashed walk, but I find that having a well-trained dog that can walk nicely on just a leash and collar is extremely rewarding and a great source of pride for me.
Harnesses that are designed to encourage a dog to pull have only a single point of contact far down the back (the further back it is, the more likely they are to pull). They work by deliberately triggering the opposition reflex so that the dog pulls - very different to having a dog in a harness with a point of contact on the chest and another between the shoulder blades.
Personally I find it just as rewarding having a dog walk beautifully to heel in a harness as I would a dog in a collar :D
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Well thank you all for the feedback.
There are so many types of harness out there that I had become a bit boggle eyed! ::)
It seems that overall you have had successes with one or other type. Just need to decide which one to go for!
Most of the time they only mask unresolved training issues.
It's my personal belief that a dog isn't properly leash trained if it always has to be walked on a harness or any other kind of "training" gimmick like a head halter. I consider my dogs leash trained only once I can walk them on just a leash and collar with absolutely no tension on the lead.
I suppose some people are fine with not actually addressing the source of why the dog is pulling while on a leashed walk, but I find that having a well-trained dog that can walk nicely on just a leash and collar is extremely rewarding and a great source of pride for me.
The reason I posted originally, is because I recognise Baxter is not properly leash trained, and no, I am not fine with it!
I would also find it very rewarding to have him trot sedately at my side, however,having tried many methods, I am wanting to cover all options to try to achieve more improvement.
There are thousands of harnesses sold to owners who may be struggling with loose lead walking and it appears they have success with them.
Personally speaking, if Mark at Top Barks has used them, I wouldn't imagine he was trying to mask "unresolved training issues" merely using available tools to assist in resolving those problems?
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Its often best if you use a harness combined with sometimes using a collar and lead
Thinking is when you have the time to train you use the collar and lead but when you're in a rush or haven't time to train for pulling use a harness - and don't half-heartedly try to train them on the way to a walk and let them fail - if you're off to the park their head is all over the place so its often best to get that out the way (use the harness then) then may be do a bit of lead training when they're settled a bit and if you have the time.
By allowing him to pull it sets them up to fail so they never learn how not to pull ;)
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OK, been looking at the Easy Walk harness, but there are 2 types:
First clips between the shoulders:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Medium-Easy-Walk-Dog-Training-Harness-Walking-Pets-Dogs-/290459240745?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Dogs&hash=item43a0b84929
And the second on the chest:
http://www.friendsoffido.co.uk/easy-walk-harness-c12.html
Is one better than the other?
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Yes, Skye was always a puller but now a harness is a must since she slipped her disc. We can't use the collar as thats where the offending disc is. The harness does stop her pulling and wheezing and gasping loudly!!
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Ideally we would want our dogs to walk with a loose lead without harnesses and with training you can get there, but there are always still for me situations where i find harnesses invaluable.
Going into a new situation, where my dogs are likely to be stimulated or somewhere i have to concentrate on other stuff rather than my dogs.
I wouldn't dream of walking my dogs on flat collars for any distance even though i can have them next to me with slack leads if i wish.
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I totally agree with Mark.
As I said in a previous post, I found the halti harness really good for Chloe in circumstances where it was vital that she didn't pull all over the place...ie in the village. The only time it didn't work for her, was in her highest distraction environments, in other words, around sheep. That is a training issue and something I am working on. I chose to stop using the halti harness on normal, familiar walks and in the village, because she has learnt to walk nicely on a normal collar or harness and lead now, but if I were taking her to a new, busy place, I wouldn't hesitate to use it again.
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I don't know Mark or Top Barks so what I wrote is not at all directed at him, but you must admit that there are plenty of people out there that do use such devices as crutches more than as training aids. Ideally, harnesses that clip to the front or other items like head halters should only be used to teach a dog proper behavior so you can move on to pleasant and controlled leashed walks, but usually the case is people relying on harnesses to prevent their arms getting ripped out their sockets or their dog's necks getting injured, because they haven't found a training method that works for their dog. Usually once the harness is off, the dog is back to pulling. I don't mean for my reply to be a sermon on training, but that's my biggest reason for not liking harnesses at all. In my personal experience, most people rely too much on them so that they don't actually have to properly train their dog.
I still have my dog's first harness, but still don't use it even though he's great on the leash. The matting number it does on his full coat is painful for him and aggravating for me and I find that I have even less control over him if he's wearing a harness while in a new excitable environment. It's not a specialized training harness, so yes, his harness does make it easier for him to pull towards what he's set his sights on and what's worse is that with his harness I can't correct him versus with a leash and collar it only takes a light pop on the lead to direct his focus back to me. This probably isn't an issue for those that use specialized harnesses that allows the dog to correct itself when it pulls on a lead.
All I'm saying is that I don't like them and that they don't work with my personal training philosophy. If it works with your dog and you're happy with it that's fine too, but you have to remember that you won't really know how well-trained your dog is until she's back on a flat buckle collar and lead or better yet, completely off leash.
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Praia - your "light pop on the lead" is exactly the reason I really don't advocate using flat collars. You are jerking your dog's neck and many a McTimoney animal chiropractor will be able to tell you the number of dogs whose necks are put out by exactly this kind of thing. The subsequent tension that builds up in the neck has a ripple effect throughout the body and can (and does) cause behavioural problems.
The other issue with giving a "pop on the lead" is that people tend to do this when their dog is reacting to something, which can in turn make them more reactive (as they are usually reacting as they're worried about whatever it is, and that reactivity can be as mild as pulling on the lead, but you then give them a jerk to their neck which they may associate with the thing they were reacting to, and so you end up with their fear increasing).
As a Ttouch practitioner I always recommend to clients that they either switch to a harness, or they walk the dog in a balance leash (where you use a long lead which you hook around the dog's chest so you end up with two points of contact and the pressure is to the chest and not to the collar). I have worked with many dogs when they are being reactive to something, straining on the collar, up on the back legs barking at something, and the simple exercise of wrapping the lead around the front of the chest and holding them this way so that you take all pressure off the neck, can be enough to get the dog to really calm back down.
I generally do not advocate anti-pull harnesses as they physically stop the dog from pulling and I agree that some people rely on this rather than training the dog to walk in balance. However some dogs are REALLY pully and an anti-pull harness can be a starting point as you can then click and treat the dog the moment it's in balance, build from there and then switch to a normal harness.
Personally I think you can have far more control over a dog in a harness with two points of contact - it is much easier to guide a dog in the direction you want by leading from the front, firmly stroking the contact from the chest and looking in the direction you want to go so that the dog has very clear signals, both through the contact on the lead (stroking the lead encourages the dog to move whereas "popping" the lead just feels very unpleasant and sets up more tension in the body), and through you looking at where you want to go (as the dog will follow your eye direction).
I don't really understand your view that "you won't really know how well-trained your dog is until she's back on a flat buckle collar and lead" - if your dog is walking to heel in a normal (not an anti-pull) harness then she IS trained! :dunno:
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Praia - your "light pop on the lead" is exactly the reason I really don't advocate using flat collars. You are jerking your dog's neck and many a McTimoney animal chiropractor will be able to tell you the number of dogs whose necks are put out by exactly this kind of thing. The subsequent tension that builds up in the neck has a ripple effect throughout the body and can (and does) cause behavioural problems.
The other issue with giving a "pop on the lead" is that people tend to do this when their dog is reacting to something, which can in turn make them more reactive (as they are usually reacting as they're worried about whatever it is, and that reactivity can be as mild as pulling on the lead, but you then give them a jerk to their neck which they may associate with the thing they were reacting to, and so you end up with their fear increasing).
As a Ttouch practitioner I always recommend to clients that they either switch to a harness, or they walk the dog in a balance leash (where you use a long lead which you hook around the dog's chest so you end up with two points of contact and the pressure is to the chest and not to the collar). I have worked with many dogs when they are being reactive to something, straining on the collar, up on the back legs barking at something, and the simple exercise of wrapping the lead around the front of the chest and holding them this way so that you take all pressure off the neck, can be enough to get the dog to really calm back down.
I generally do not advocate anti-pull harnesses as they physically stop the dog from pulling and I agree that some people rely on this rather than training the dog to walk in balance. However some dogs are REALLY pully and an anti-pull harness can be a starting point as you can then click and treat the dog the moment it's in balance, build from there and then switch to a normal harness.
Personally I think you can have far more control over a dog in a harness with two points of contact - it is much easier to guide a dog in the direction you want by leading from the front, firmly stroking the contact from the chest and looking in the direction you want to go so that the dog has very clear signals, both through the contact on the lead (stroking the lead encourages the dog to move whereas "popping" the lead just feels very unpleasant and sets up more tension in the body), and through you looking at where you want to go (as the dog will follow your eye direction).
I don't really understand your view that "you won't really know how well-trained your dog is until she's back on a flat buckle collar and lead" - if your dog is walking to heel in a normal (not an anti-pull) harness then she IS trained! :dunno:
Totally with you Claire :D
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Praia, your comments about some people using harnesses and head collars as a crutch has substance but then really that sometimes is not a problem to them.
Not everyone has the skill, time, patience and dedication to have their dogs walk with a loose lead 100% generalised to all situations.
I myself as a trainer would not claim this of my four cocker's, does this make me bad?
Should I then walk them on flat collars and leash pop them when they go wrong?
My dogs do not walk anywhere with a tight lead whether that is on a harness, collar or whatever equipment, but the average pet owner is not prepared to go to the lengths that i do to ensure this.
Does this make them wrong?
I go to clients houses and sometimes dispair as to what i could do with their dog if it were mine, i see a lot of wasted potential sometimes and it is sad.
As a trainer you have to learn to deal with that and at the end of the day my job is to help the owner give the dog a better quality of life and in doing so try and give them a means to facilitate what is important to them.
If that means a harness so be it.
So yes it can be an easy way out, a crutch if you like but if it proves better for the dog and owner then I'd take that over an ill timed leash pop that may cause harm to the dog.
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Rogue pulls on the lead, so i have to use a harness - well I use a halti. After finding out I have a major spinal problem and several operations later, my surgeon said I had to get rid of her because if she jolts me then it will cause damage. Compromise = halti.
But we only use it to walk the 20 meters to get onto the field behind our house - only then because there are cars that drive up the gravel track.
The halti is amazing, completley stops pulling! and we do put it on her if we go somewhere e.g. town centre where she can attempt to lick faces :005:
However, for some reason, when OFF the lead, she walks perfectly to heel. I have no idea why the lead transforms her to a puller. We were told to only use positive reinforcement for getting her to heel - just praise her for doing it. Pah! after hours of trying, she was having none of it. Until my hubby did a stern 'Oiiiii' when she ran ahead - now she walks to heel perfectly and the occassional 'oii' if she goes ahead. And her positive reward is being told 'good girl' which is her release command, so she can go speeding off into the fields ::)
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This thread was originally about whether one liked harnesses and I stated my reasons why I don't. I didn't post to push on people my methods of training. I just came here to state that harnesses are fine, but that many people use it as an excuse to not properly train their dog to a reliable heel while on a leashed walk. I should have known better that it would all end in a lecture from certain members.
I knew I'd be opening up a can of worms if I wrote "light pop on the lead." The light pop on the lead is not a corrective jerk. It's more of a "hey, get back in touch with reality and look at me" touch on the shoulder. Of course, correcting a dog too severely is dangerous physiologically and psychologically, but in my opinion, a well-timed corrective pop on the lead is an effective way to nip the problem in the butt. However, I've already lurked around on this forum long enough to know what the general consensus on dog training is on here so I'm sure a collective shocked gasp of animal cruelty is echoing throughout the forum. ANY tool, whether it be collar or harness, can be used cruelly or ineffectively.
The person posting the originally question asked "what's your views on harnesses" and I clearly stated my position backing that opinion with my belief that too many people use harnesses as a crutch. If they're okay with that, I clearly stated that it's okay to do whatever works best for you and your dog. What I wrote was more of cautionary advise so that the original poster was aware that though anti-pull harnesses may work in the meantime, they certainly don't mean that the dog is trained well enough to walk well without the anti-pull harness. If all they want is a pleasant walk then that's fine. It certainly doesn't make them wrong, but if they don't want to always depend on such a training tool then maybe they should consider other options.
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Sorry if you felt you were lectured. ;) You have put your point across well IMO and i totally get where you're coming from. :D
I still do not agree with leash pops, no matter how insignificant you deem them to be but that is my choice.
This forum does have a reward based training ethic and one we are proud of but everyone is entitled to an oppinion even if "some members" may disagree. Hey it's a forum and would be a boring place should we all agree on everything. :lol2:
I think we agree that training a dog to walk on a loose lead is very rewarding and satisfying and is the ideal solution to any pulling problem.
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As someone who has six rescue dogs who have come from different circumstances I am proud of the fact that I can walk 5 of them on leads without them pulling (albeit only at the start of a walk, as they then go off lead).
Our sixth dog though is different. She's an almost blind, ex puppy farm breeding working cocker bitch. She is highly intelligent. She spent the first six years of her life locked in a shed, starving, uncared for and producing litters of puppies. To say that she is 'over stimulated' when out on a walk is the understatement of the year!
I've tried hours and hours and hours of training, I've tried training her on her own, training her with our steadiest dog, training using leads, long lines, harnesses, you name it, I've tried it. Because she's almost blind, she has to stay on some sort of lead (and even then I have to be very vigilant to make sure she doesn't run into trees). She gets so excited when she's out that despite frequent returns to sit with me to calm down, she rarely listens when she's in full flight, which is all of the rest of the time.
So, to stop her damaging her neck and to stop my arms and neck from being damaged, I use a harness. Maybe I'm avoiding training issues, but I honestly don't see a better way of doing this at the moment....
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Praia, I think some of the misunderstanding has been because you seemed to be saying that ALL harnesses are used as a crutch when you specifically meant anti-pull harnesses ;)
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Poppy is normally walked on a harness beause I think it is more comfortable for her. She has never pulled on the lead since she was a puppy- not through my training by any stretch of the imagination- she just doesn't.
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My two are sooo much better on a harness :D Have just lent one to friends who has just got a rescue cocker and they said it worked wonders and have now bought one ;)
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Thank you all for your opinions and experiences regarding harnesses.
I have ordered one and it arrived today ;) I am thrilled with it :blink:
Our walk from the house to the park was smooth, controlled and a joy!
As I mentioned in my first post, Baxter was not a lunger or a constant puller, but always slightly ahead with tension on the lead. I have continually stopped, brought him back to heel and once the lead was loose, started again. Yes, those outings could take a long time, but I thought "He has to get it soon" so perservered. I also practiced at home, but Baxter will do anything you want at home, just not in the outside world which is far too interesting.
I appreciate what Praia has said about people using the harness as a crutch or an excuse not to train their dogs, but I would much rather see a dog on a harness, that being yanked roughly by a frustrated owner or not walked at all because people find there is no enjoyment taking their dog out anymore.
In a perfect world we would all have the time, patience and expertise to have our dogs behave impeccably.
I am not giving up on the flat collar and lead, as I do believe he and I can master it, but neither do I see it as a failure to have him walk nicely on a harness. ;)
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My two are both walked on a harness. Jessie is a small cocker spaniel and I don't want any tension on her neck saying that she is fine walking to heel. Started off using a K9 Bridle . Now they have an cosy dog harness with the ring attachment at the front. Dylan needs to wear a harness as he has cataracts and his sight is poor. I have to put him on a flexilead for his safety sometimes and wearing a harness is more comfortable.
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I am not giving up on the flat collar and lead, as I do believe he and I can master it, but neither do I see it as a failure to have him walk nicely on a harness. ;)
Hi
I found the easiest way to walk both mine to heal on a flat collar and lead, was to walk to an area on a harness, and then to allow the dog off lead running etc, and then to practise the walking to heal on the flat collar and lead on the way home. This worked for me, as I didn't get frustrated with the dog, and then also the dog is tired on the way home so less likely to pull, therefore it was easier to reinforce the good behaviour.
Hope this helps.
Jenny, Harley & Mayhem
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Well, my dogs both have (non-restraining) harnesses and they pull like trains :D They are rarely on lead for long, so we've never spent time to train them to walk nicely. I guess a whole other thread could be created on the topic of "Should you train your dogs to do x,y,z even if you don't need them to"!
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I guess a whole other thread could be created on the topic of "Should you train your dogs to do x,y,z even if you don't need them to"!
I agree :shades: :005: Go for it :005: