Badly Bitten By My Dog

[correna]

My mums dog that has a pocession aggression is a blue roan!!

I have 2 blacks and my eldest is wonderful would trust him with anyone and anything.... my baby is only 8weeks but got him from the same breeder who put the same consideration into breeding sound puppies

Most reputable breeders would ensure temperament when putting a dog and bitch together, like any dog i believe it is in both breeding and rearing the dog as to how a dog turns out.

Cocker rage is a problem, but could well  be due to bad breeding ie: puppy farming where there is no consideration into how a puppy turns out...

I am no expert but feel it is unjust for a breeder to say all solids are a risk... i personally would always have a solid cocker

Correna, and MY MEN IN BLACK... Bailey and Harvey

[Joelf]

I don't know whether you have read an interesting article in the June edition of "Dogs Today"? It was written by Dr. Peter Neville & he tries to explode the
myth of so called "cocker rage".

His theory is that no such condition exists, but that it is just a form of frustration from an active breed with insufficient stimulation which causes the dog to act in an aggressive way.

I don't know how true this is but it might be worth you obtaining a copy of the magazine to read to see if any of it is relevant to your dog. I think if you ring
01276 858880 they would be able to send you a copy.

My own two dogs have gone through the "Kevin the Teenager" stage although they have never shown any aggression. It tends to be more a gesture of defiance i.e. not coming back when called if something more interesting is happening!!

I hope you are able to sort something out.

Regards
Jo & Doggies.

[PennyB]

Hello,there was no provocation as we were completely on our own on this countryside path. Up until he became "grown up" he never showed any nastiness at all.After he bcame a young man he had a "funny" week where he acted a bit wierd,going under chairs and into corners but he stopped all that nonsense.However the aggression started if I tried to stop him from doing things he shouldn't,eg biting shoes,eating nasty things like ciggy ends. Now I am more wary of taking things away so I do a swap with him,eg a pice of cheese or a biscuit and he normally gives them up.

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This sort of thing can happen to any dog (cocker of any colour, or any other breed/x-breed), some do it some don't. My blue roan bitch has done this in the past which I've trained her not to now. Adolescence can be quite a challenging time for most dogs, some breeze through it with little problem and some stretch the patience of the most patient.

I'm a great believer in that sometimes we need outside help rather than muddling through for both us and the dog (sometimes we need the training just as much) if there is a continuing problem. Some solutions can be quite simple.

[Sue H]

Sometimes, Bramble has gone mad about a stick I am holding - because we throw sticks, and he fetches sticks out of the rivers we visit - if he sees us holding a stick he will go ape !!!  Wwe just say 'No - off you go..' if it is not appropriate ....

If he gets into that frame of mind, and we are just standing there with a stick, he will jump and bite at the stick to try and get it - could that have been what your dog was doing ??  He thought 'It's MY stick'  and just went for it ??!!

I think I remember your post saying that you laid there for an hour, yet you were just bruised - have you ever played ruff'n'tuff games with a dog before? Have you ever been savaged by a dog before??  Don't want to downplay what happened, but Cockers aren't exactly known for their killer charcteristics ...

[zarina]

Sometimes, Bramble has gone mad about a stick I am holding - because we throw sticks, and he fetches sticks out of the rivers we visit - if he sees us holding a stick he will go ape !!!  Wwe just say 'No - off you go..' if it is not appropriate ....

If he gets into that frame of mind, and we are just standing there with a stick, he will jump and bite at the stick to try and get it - could that have been what your dog was doing ??  He thought 'It's MY stick'  and just went for it ??!!

I think I remember your post saying that you laid there for an hour, yet you were just bruised - have you ever played ruff'n'tuff games with a dog before? Have you ever been savaged by a dog before??  Don't want to downplay what happened, but Cockers aren't exactly known for their killer charcteristics ...

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Sue, If you saw THIS bruise you may change your mind.My arm is still black and blue from the underarm right down to 3 inches from my elbow.Following the bite my arm was really swollen with 2 distinct rows of teeth,the surface skin just cut, and my bluse torn through. I have had dogs all my life and been bitten before, but this was really dreadful because of the force.

[PennyB]

Sue, If you saw THIS bruise you may change your mind.My arm is still black and blue from the underarm right down to 3 inches from my elbow.Following the bite my arm was really swollen with 2 distinct rows of teeth,the surface skin just cut, and my bluse torn through. I have had dogs all my life and been bitten before, but this was really dreadful because of the force

If there's anything you are not happy with in a dogs behaviour as I said before its often best to see someone (that is someone who doesn't think rage 1st and looks at the behaviour of the dog not the breed). You seem to be struggling with his possessiveness so may be that should be something that needs working on as well.

[zarina]

Forgot to say! Even though my friend with the kennel thinks I am mad,I still love my Golden boy and he still loves me.I know he does as we often have "smooching" sessions, and by his eyes I can tell he is full of love.

It is a pity about the aggression in him, I know he dislikes any form of "telling offs" and cheeks me back when I  do.. I have never been heavy handed I would never condone that.A few in my family and a friend said they would have brought the stick right down on top of him for what he did-- but I would not do that as 2 wrongs do not make a right..

[PennyB]

It is a pity about the aggression in him, I know he dislikes any form of "telling offs" and cheeks me back when I  do.. I have never been heavy handed I would never condone that.A few in my family and a friend said they would have brought the stick right down on top of him for what he did-- but I would not do that as 2 wrongs do not make a right..

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I assume you've never had cockers before, they can be very strong-willed.

Why don't you try to deal with his 'aggression' rather than just accepting it, after all he is a youngster and some elements of his behaviour may just be because he's trying it on (give cockers an inch and they'll take a mile). All the young confident male cockers I come across have gone through a yobbish phase which if handled properly turn into lovely non-aggressive boys rather than thugs. Sometimes if not handled properly or not dealt with they can get worse though. If we allow them to become too much the centre of our lives they begin to take over in more ways than one (my vet often sees the elderly bringing in their dogs who are their sole companions who've also now become aggressive, guarding the sofa, the bed and just about everywhere so much so they can't cope and won't follow the vets sound advice to begin treating the dog like a dog and giving boundaries and then vet puts the dog to sleep even though the dog could've been helped but owner doesn't want to stop overspoiling the dog and can't see the link between using simple measures). NILIF and TTouch may help:

NILIF

www.tilleyfarm.co.uk

TTouch/TTeam

I met the new owner of the young lurcher I rehomed last week and her arms are covered in bruises and scratches because Maddy's just trying it on/being too boisterous and forgetting her size and still learning how to behave but her new owner is guiding/training her now which is something she's lacked in her previous life.

[zarina]

It is a pity about the aggression in him, I know he dislikes any form of "telling offs" and cheeks me back when I  do.. I have never been heavy handed I would never condone that.A few in my family and a friend said they would have brought the stick right down on top of him for what he did-- but I would not do that as 2 wrongs do not make a right..

[snapback]136094[/snapback]

I assume you've never had cockers before, they can be very strong-willed.

Why don't you try to deal with his 'aggression' rather than just accepting it, after all he is a youngster and some elements of his behaviour may just be because he's trying it on (give cockers an inch and they'll take a mile). All the young confident male cockers I come across have gone through a yobbish phase which if handled properly turn into lovely non-aggressive boys rather than thugs. Sometimes if not handled properly or not dealt with they can get worse though. If we allow them to become too much the centre of our lives they begin to take over in more ways than one (my vet often sees the elderly bringing in their dogs who are their sole companions who've also now become aggressive, guarding the sofa, the bed and just about everywhere so much so they can't cope and won't follow the vets sound advice to begin treating the dog like a dog and giving boundaries and then vet puts the dog to sleep even though the dog could've been helped but owner doesn't want to stop overspoiling the dog and can't see the link between using simple measures). NILIF and TTouch may help:

NILIF

www.tilleyfarm.co.uk

TTouch/TTeam

I met the new owner of the young lurcher I rehomed last week and her arms are covered in bruises and scratches because Maddy's just trying it on/being too boisterous and forgetting her size and still learning how to behave but her new owner is guiding/training her now which is something she's lacked in her previous life.

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Thanks for all the helpful tips.I would like to add that I have very strong boundaries for my dog. For eg.,he knows exactly which rooms he can go into and which he cannot and he sticks rigidly to this without gates etc.He is never allowed upstairs either.In the car the same rules apply,he sits on his own on the back seat as he has since 12 weeks, he never ever tries to cross into the front seat even though he has no gate to bar him.I could drive a long journey and he is as quiet as a mouse.He knows not to bark when I leave him,he just accepts all of this as normal as I have never spoilt him although I have given him plenty of love.
I have spoken to a behaviourist who is associated with our groomers, and she said that there is nothing she could do to make him any better as she knows by the staff in the groomers that my Cocker is one of the best behaved dogs that they see.She also added that unfortunately she feels that it is a hereditary aggressive/rage fault that so many of the Gold cockers do have-- Her words not mine.She also put me in touch with a behaviourst from a well known GB Canine trust, and this gentleman said that nearly all the solid cockers they get for re homing do have these recessive genes,so much so that now they have to refuse them due to the danger these dogs are posing not just to the families but to their staff, as many have not been bred by knowledgeable breeders.
Although my dog  was not bought from a shop or puppy farm, he is very well bred indeed.
Thankyou to all who have given advice.

[Katina]

If your dog really has rage, then nothing in the world will ever make him better. I know this sounds harsh, but there is no "cure".
My friend had a golden boy with similar behaviour, and unfortunately I have to say, he had to be put to sleep.  He too was a very well behaved and loving boy in between his "fits".
I personally, don't tolerate any kind of biting from any dog. I want to be able to trust in my dogs in every possible situation. And with my present dogs, I can, I know they wouldn't harm a fly   .

[Cob-Web]

I have spoken to a behaviourist who is associated with our groomers, and she said that there is nothing she could do to make him any better as she knows by the staff in the groomers that my Cocker is one of the best behaved dogs that they see.She also added that unfortunately she feels that it is a hereditary aggressive/rage fault that so many of the Gold cockers do have-- Her words not mine.She also put me in touch with a behaviourst from a well known GB Canine trust, and this gentleman said that nearly all the solid cockers they get for re homing do have these recessive genes,so much so that now they have to refuse them due to the danger these dogs are posing not just to the families but to their staff, as many have not been bred by knowledgeable breeders.
Although my dog  was not bought from a shop or puppy farm, he is very well bred indeed.

Have you spoken to your dogs breeder and asked about the temperment of litter mates? A reputable breeder will want to know the problems that you are having and may well contact the owners of the other pups from the litter to ensure that your problems are not shared. The sires owner will also need to know; it will affect their future breeding plans.

Did the behavoiurist SEE your dog when he was in one of his agressive moments (what is your dogs name BTW?) - I'm afraid there are many experienced dog people who are too quick to use  the RAGE label  in the case of cockers - your yourself said in a previous post that he does not exhibit the expected signs of RAGE   . Your dogs breeder should be prepared to help you find someone suitable

I was unaware that RAGE had been confirmed as a genetic condition - although I know that some research has concluded that  there may be a genetic predisposition. How has the gentleman from the "well-known GB Canine Trust" identified that the cockers that have been through his hands have these recessive genes - is he testing for a specific allele combination   ?

If you distrust your dog to the extent that your posts suggest I would strongly advise that you take steps to ensure he does not endanger you or anyone else; otherwise the decison as to how to deal with his agressive nature (whatever its cause) will be taken from your hands  

Whatever the cause; I hope you and your doggy find the cause and resolve it  

[zarina]

Thanks for all the help from this forum.To answer some questions, yes the breeder knows and wants him back,but I have to seriously think before making this decision.The breeders are very stern and uncompromising and I am afraid there will be a "Death Row" finale.
By the way my dog is called Raj.Since posting on here I have read just about everything I can on Cocker madness/Rage,and I still do not think that Raj has this.It could be a form of nervous aggression that must be handled very carefully I fully agree -but Raj is basically a good boy at home, any rough play I now completely ignore,although I did read about mouthing on this website and I will give the link here if the Forum will kindly allow.I think it could help others. http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm

The signs that Raj should be showing for Madness -Rage,call it what you will,are not truly present.He does not mind sharing any of his toys with anyone,and will freely give them up.He really likes me to hand feed him at mealtimes,I know this will be frowned on by some but anyway into the bowl my hand goes and he eats with no aggression at all.He lies quietly in the evening and I can put my hand on him while he is lying and stroke him, and he does nothing at all.He shows no aggression in the rooms he is allowed in and if I allow him on a sofa he shows no unpleasantness to anyone else sitting by him.He is excellent outside the home with people and dogs.

However if he picks up something in the garden or out on a walk that he really wants to keep,something like a stick or garbage paper,then I can only get him to let it go by a swap,eg a bit of cheese or a biscuit.No way could I take bits off him as he would snarl and snap at my hand.With a swap he does nothing.Also if he does not want to do something that I want him to,like washing his feet today with some soap and water, then we do get a bit of temper tantrums and I have to be careful.He seems very distrustful sometimes and I wonder if something happened when he was with his mother before I had him.

The Behaviour therapist has not seen Raj in a temper tantrum,only what I described to them.The Behaviour therapist from the well known animal charity told me that Rage is truly a medical problem, and he went into a deep explanation of medical terminology that was way over my head.However the bottom line was his last sentence"No dog suffering from rage can be made safe" .He also emphasised the fact that most solid Cocker owners who come to them for help do lie about the disposition of the dogs needing re homing.He did not mention about part coloured dogs only plain or solid coloured dogs.

[Bonnie]

Dear Zarina

I have just read all the postings and I just wanted to say it is evident how much you care for Raj and what great advice other COL members have given.

I truly hope this works itself out well for you both.  Fingers crossed he is going through a teenager phase and the future is good for both of you.

Bonnie

[suki1964]

Being no expert, reading all your posts, i too would say that Raj doesnt have rage.

I would advise as Penny has done, find a behaviorist who isnt hung up on rage. Behaviourist are human too and there are some that will take the rage route as the easy route, rather then work with a very strong willed cocker. And lets face it cockers are indeed strong willed and would try the patience of a saint.

My year old blue roan really is a wee darling, but hes also one of the most wilful dogs around Go tell him off and he tells you off right back and even takes to barking at you and running He will happily hand over his bones or treats but try and get him to give up a bit of something he knows he shouldnt have and its only achieved by bribary or by prising his jaws open. I have to be firm with him the whole time else he would run rings round me.

Do try find a behaviourist to help you. If the first thing they mention is rage, keep looking.

best of luck

[zarina]

Once again I want to thank everyone, including the senders of the private messages for all the support they have given to Raji and myself,it has been like a breath of fresh air. If the people on this forum were all breeders then there would be no problems with Cocker Spaniels temperment,as you have all shown how much you REALLY care for the breed

Dear Raji is going to stay with me as long as there is no escalation in aggression.I have made up my mind once and for all,and I think we can work this out.I have read so many articles on the Internet ,borrowed books from the library and books I have purchased that I feel better equipped now to handle the situation,and far more knowledgeable about the breed than before.
Also this discussion can only do good for others as it has brought the Dominant aggression/Rage, into the open so to speak, and, hopefully the breeders who keep an eye on this forum(I am sure there must be many because of the quality  mails of the posters)will think long and hard about their own breeding lines and possibly get together with other breeders to eliminate  this problem once and for all.
Cocker Spaniels are wonderful clever,handsome dogs,and quite rightly popular,but the bloodlines of the plain or solid colours do need to be thoroughly examined to see what has gone wrong in the breeding lines. If these excessively dominant dogs are used at stud on the broken or parti coloured bitches then the problem will surely soon be the same in these lines also.

Edited to remove material quoted without source/name of author