Author Topic: the value of a reward  (Read 1966 times)

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Offline ips

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the value of a reward
« on: April 03, 2017, 12:28:56 PM »
Does anyone consider that there dog values verbal praise as much or even more than an edible treat ??

Discuss 😁
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Mari

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Re: the value of a reward
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2017, 12:46:50 PM »
Depends on the situation and how the verbal praise is delivered I think. Not to mention how much verbal praise the dog recieves in general. I pretty much talk to and praise my dog all day long, so if it was going to work as a reward I would have to learn to be less chatty with my dog  :005: She gets praise just for being alive and cute, so how would she know when she did something good  :lol2:

In a training situation I think verbal praise is not high enough value reward. There should be no dubt that it is a reward, and a"good dog" is just not enough when learning something new. But in other settings when the dog does something she has already learned, then a verbal praise will be good enough to reinforce the behaviour in most cases. A "good girl" gets the tail wagging every time so clearly it's valued by the dog.

Sometimes treats are almost in the way because she is having too much fun to swallow so she inhales them and starts coughing. So for anything with speed I prefer to use a toy or myself to reward. Just playing and jumping around and doing stuff she is entertained by. But let's say you are training recall, praising the dog is not going to compete with a world full of exciting stuff. So in that setting praise is a pretty weak reward. A tug toy however...

So I think the important thing is to use different types of rewards for different situations. I do think praise can be a valuable reward. But not nearly as useful as treats or toys :) I guess it depends on the dog too, some dogs don't care for food rewards, but I dubt many cockers fall in that category  :005:

Offline ips

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Re: the value of a reward
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2017, 01:05:54 PM »
Interesting, thank you.
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Londongirl

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Re: the value of a reward
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2017, 01:23:02 PM »
I've read somewhere that food treats actually change the dog's brain chemistry in a significant way, so they are more reinforcing than other types of reward.

I also chat a lot to my dog. He enjoys verbal praise accompanied with a thorough ear rub for one-off events, but food rewards keep him focused on training when it's an ongoing situation.
Rachael (me) and Henry (him)


Offline Pearly

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Re: the value of a reward
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2017, 01:28:00 PM »
I don't "talk" to my dogs, they do get verbal praise and hands on reward, treats are a last resort and useful for reinforcement of much needed positive behaviour.

It's taken a long time but at training yesterday, Coral hunted off lead for around 30 minutes in a field adjacent to sheep  ph34r she stayed close, stopped first time every time at distance, found a lost ball from OHs young cocker who bogged off  :lol: and recalled every time.........yes, really it was Coral!   She even stayed in the same field! :luv:

Offline Blueberry

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Re: the value of a reward
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2017, 02:40:42 PM »
I prattle all the time to Blue, and the trainer we saw last week told me to stop it!  She said if I'm always blathering, he won't listen any more and I may as well be talking to myself.  She was in favour of minimal gas-bagging, and rewards could be either edible or play related.

Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: the value of a reward
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2017, 03:21:41 PM »
My poor deprived dogs don't get food rewards during gundog work or training as I find it just gets in the way of them working properly.  And yet both absolutely live for working - because it's what they're bred to do.  They only get verbal praise and a stroke or whatever, I suppose their reward comes from working itself and being allowed to do that?  I don't want my dogs to recall just because I have cheese in my hand.  I want them to recall because it means we're going to do something fun.  And I 'condition' this from the day I get them. I do use food rewards when training my one worker for agility - but I can assure you his favourite thing is flushing/retrieving birds sans treats.
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline ips

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Re: the value of a reward
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2017, 03:37:22 PM »
Same here.
I do not use food as a reward anymore (not in the field or when working anyway) i phased it out twelve months ago. Reward now is my verbal praise but mainly reward is continuation of or being released to hunt or to retrieve. Seems dogs are a bit thick and will stop hunting to the whistle purely for the reward of being allowed to hunt on....go figure 😁
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Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: the value of a reward
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2017, 03:44:40 PM »
 :lol2: - they are funny things!  I had an argument on a 'positive gundog' fb group a couple of years ago where one of the admins insisted that verbal reward/ praise means nothing to dogs and only food can work as a reinforcer...  they were all a bit hysterical imo - the positive food based training was a bit of a religion for many on there.  I think sometimes all the scientific analysis and pontification about training and methodologies obscures the relationship between dogs and humans and just how unique it is  :luv:
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline ips

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Re: the value of a reward
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2017, 03:57:20 PM »
Eze got to the stage of refusing edible reward, she looked at me with disgust as if to say "put the cheese away and lets get back to some serious training"
I am convinced that my verbal praise is good enough for her. Hence the topic really.
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Londongirl

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Re: the value of a reward
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2017, 04:46:03 PM »
Eze got to the stage of refusing edible reward, she looked at me with disgust as if to say "put the cheese away and lets get back to some serious training"
I am convinced that my verbal praise is good enough for her. Hence the topic really.

And we reach the almost inevitable conclusion to pretty much every thread on this very well balanced and reasonable forum, which is that each dog is different and only their own humans know what works best.
Rachael (me) and Henry (him)


Offline Mari

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Re: the value of a reward
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2017, 05:04:12 PM »
:lol2: - they are funny things!  I had an argument on a 'positive gundog' fb group a couple of years ago where one of the admins insisted that verbal reward/ praise means nothing to dogs and only food can work as a reinforcer...  they were all a bit hysterical imo - the positive food based training was a bit of a religion for many on there.  I think sometimes all the scientific analysis and pontification about training and methodologies obscures the relationship between dogs and humans and just how unique it is  :luv:


Sounds like they misunderstood reward based training, typical for the more hysterical type (I should know, I used to be one :005:) I think most people that really start to learn about positive training understand the value og different rewards. One of the most useful things I learned from clickertraining is adapting reward to situation. Dog loves to run? Running is a reward!

But I think in the beginning when teaching new behaviours (not in a working situation) food rewards and toys are very useful. It is much easier when you want to repeat commands. Quick reward and back into it. And it is probably very different training a working dog than a non working. The non working dog might not have 'built in motivation' and needs a reason to perform.

One of the reasons why I use food rewards often is because I have a very excitable dog. And when she gets to hyper there is no learning happening. So if I want her to stay (relatively) calm and focused eating has a calming effect on dogs.

I think learning how to use all types of rewards in suitable situations is super helpful. Food when you want calm focus and repetitions. Toys and playtime when you want speed. Cuddles or food for when you want the dog to relax. And work for working makes perfect sense.

I don't walk around with treats in my pocket anymore. Only for training new stuff or the occasional refresher session. In day to day life some praise or a pet is more than enough to confirm for the dog that she did good. If we did the training right she already knows anyway :)

Offline Mari

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Re: the value of a reward
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2017, 05:06:11 PM »

And we reach the almost inevitable conclusion to pretty much every thread on this very well balanced and reasonable forum, which is that each dog is different and only their own humans know what works best.
:005: We need some unreasonable fanatics in here!  :lol2:

Offline Archie bean

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Re: the value of a reward
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2017, 05:18:09 PM »
Speaking only for Archie.....Nope. Verbal praise? Meh!  :shades: :005: He will also decide whether a reward is of high enough value to warrant his compliance.  ;)

Offline Murphys Law

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Re: the value of a reward
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2017, 05:42:33 PM »
Murphy is all about a treat as reward, Millie is all about the ball.

If I offer Millie a nice cocktail sausage as reward for a job well done she will completely ignore it if there is a ball in play.