the value of a reward

[ips]

Eze got to the stage of refusing edible reward, she looked at me with disgust as if to say "put the cheese away and lets get back to some serious training"
I am convinced that my verbal praise is good enough for her. Hence the topic really.

And we reach the almost inevitable conclusion to pretty much every thread on this very well balanced and reasonable forum, which is that each dog is different and only their own humans know what works best.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. One size does not fit all.

I wonder if we inadvertently condition our dogs as to what the reward is. If you praise or clicker and give some cheese does the dog eventually consider cheese to be a reward in that context or is it born with an understanding that food is a reward  ?
Same can be said for a ball or anything else that the dog has been introduced to in a reward based context. Maybe the dog isn't telling us what it considers rewarding more that we have conditioned it to be so.
Of course I could be talking utter nonsense 😁

[Londongirl]

I don't think dogs think it terms of 'reward' so much as consequences: If I do A, then B will happen. I like B a lot so I will do A to get B.

Eventually the positive feeling they get from B (which is a chemical change in the brain) transfers to A. So dog does A and feels the good feels he got from the A+B combo. Pavlovian conditioning.

i think the concept of 'reward' the way humans think of it is too complex for dogs.

[ips]

Exactly my point re second para. " Eventually the positive feeling from B" as in the dog now understands that B must be a good thing worthy of its consideration so B is now highly valued.

Maybe 😁

[Mari]

What Londongirl said. A reward is just whatever makes the dog feel enjoyment. If you were to condition something to create enjoyment and therefore become a reward then it would not last unless you reinforced it with another reward. A reward has to have some value to a dog on its own. You could teach a dog that doesn't care about balls that balls are fun. But unless the dog actually sees the enjoyment of the ball it will loose interest again. That is the ball will only work as a reward if it is something the dog discovered to be fun or if you continue to use a reward to keep the ball interesting Dogs are simple creatures in many way. When I sit they give me a treat so I will sit

[bizzylizzy]

[quote Dogs are simple creatures in many way.
[/quote]

I think I must be aswell, this is all getting too complicated for me!!   

 

[Mari]

[quote Dogs are simple creatures in many way.

I think I must be aswell, this is all getting too complicated for me!!   

 
[/quote]

  If it's my post you're struggling with, it could be my english is failing me when I try to explain my theories. Maybe I think I'm making perfect sense, but it's all gibberish 
I am not a natural when it comes to dog training so I've read a ton of books. I sometimes get lost in the theory of it all 

[bizzylizzy]

[quote Dogs are simple creatures in many way.

I think I must be aswell, this is all getting too complicated for me!!   

 

  If it's my post you're struggling with, it could be my english is failing me when I try to explain my theories. Maybe I think I'm making perfect sense, but it's all gibberish 
I am not a natural when it comes to dog training so I've read a ton of books. I sometimes get lost in the theory of it all 
[/quote]

Good gracious no, Mari!! I didn't mean that at all - your English is brilliant! - No, I was reading the whole thread through quickly without really taking in its meaning properly  I got lost long before your comment!! 

[ips]

[quote Dogs are simple creatures in many way.

I think I must be aswell, this is all getting too complicated for me!!   

 

  If it's my post you're struggling with, it could be my english is failing me when I try to explain my theories. Maybe I think I'm making perfect sense, but it's all gibberish 
I am not a natural when it comes to dog training so I've read a ton of books. I sometimes get lost in the theory of it all 
[/quote]

All made sense to me, English seems much better than most English folk 😁

[Mari]

Good Because sometimes I read my own sentences and get confused by myself so I'm sure there must be some posts that make less sense than I think they do. Especially with stuff like this, because it is difficult to understand and keep straight in my opinion, but it is so very interesting! Especially the idea that we can condition something into being a reward. Never thought of it that way, but I guess that's what we're doing with a lot of dog activities. Sled dogs running for the joy of running are a good example. But I do think there has to be some interest to build on for it to work.

[Ambler54]

Aaaaagh...Was going to ask re treats as rewards.I am trying to not give a treat so often as a reward mainly because Rosie is getting wide around the beam, have swapped to normal kibble as much as poss, but really need something more highend for recall.But so far all Her training has been treat based , there isnt a toy with a high enough value to Her to replace a 'sweet' and when I attempt to just praise I get the 'yeh, right ,I did as asked now make with the treat' look.Have cut down Her meal to compensate but then She spends Her time 'hoovering' and I feel guilty.Tried changing treats to carrot etc but to little success, She will actually spit out something if it is not to Her high expectations.
Think main problem is this dog is spoiled rotten and probably cleverer than me........

Ps I too chat to Her, but its a different tone to commands.

[ips]

Just for fun in order of what eze values as a reward.

Retrieving a bird
Hunting for a bird
Ball
Retrieving a dummy
Edible treat
Not sure were verbal praise belongs but it is valued

So, a few things available to use BUT were do we stand if the highest value reward is the thing we don't want. For example eze is generally reliably steady BUT on occasions will lose her head in the presence of high numbers of birds. As birds are the highest reward offering a biscuit will not stop the chase / run in, neither will a ball. I found early on that even dummies have a value above biscuits. If your pooch values food above everything else training would be relatively straight forward but I doubt anyone's cocker would turn down a chase of a bird for a biscuit.
My point if indeed there is one is this, is a biscuit really that high up the value ladder or do we just think it is and have conditioned the dog from an early age to consider it so  ?

Ps
I know that possible replies are "the food is a marker to tell the dog it did good" but a verbal good girl/boy will act as a marker as it too is low down the list of value  ??

[Londongirl]

It may just be the high-wire act that the gundog handler has to tread, when the highest value reward is sometimes out of your control.

[Emilyoliver]

i think the instinct to chase prey is just higher - particularly in a working bred dog.  It's wired to find and chase and ultimately catch prey.  some of the supposed 'positive only' type trainers advocate starving your dog for a day or so to increase the value of the food rewards, and only feeding dogs by hand...  it's only us who impose the rules of stopping on flush. if stopping on flush ultimately leads to getting the bird (i.e a retrieve) then this is the ultimate reward (for stopping).  again, because that's what they're wired to do.  with other breeds of dog, a food reward may be higher up the reward value chain because their prey drive is lower.  however, the 'positive only' crew have the right idea in some respects as all dogs have to eat...  and the hungrier they are the more value a food reward will hold as a reinforcer of good bahaviour.  but imo it's very unlikely to stop a dog chasing once it's already engaged in that activity if that makes any sense. 

[Emilyoliver]

It may just be the high-wire act that the gundog handler has to tread, when the highest value reward is sometimes out of your control.

exactly. which is why gundog training has to be done so very carefully - with strict limits to exposure to game early on prior to brakes being installed.  and why so many dogs on shoots get progressively worse through the season and end up wild after a few successive ones.  I think this is also why some form of reprimand is necessary when training working dogs as well.  only rewarding the desired behavior can lead to very quick unraveling of training if a dog learns there are no repercussions for self-rewarding.  (not advocating any kind of overly harsh discipline, but the dogs need strict boundaries).

[ips]

All good points.
Yes training a dog to work is not really comparable to general obedience and I find that once your in the birds one has to think on your feet or "bad things" happen within an instant.

I am always mindful of how confusing it must be for the dog. One minute you tell it to hunt then your bollocking it for doing so. The beating dog Imo has to be the most biddable and have the greatest self control. It is my opinion that nothing compares with the excitement and general feeling of pride in your dog when on a beating line when your dog hunts well in hard cover and complies with stop and recall and heels when required. It is possibly the best thing you can do with your day BUT conversely nothing compares with the feeling of despair when your dog loses its head. Luckily in two seasons at two shoots on the rare occasion that she has gone over the threshold no damage has been done, phew. 😁