Author Topic: I Have A Confession....  (Read 16162 times)

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Penel

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I Have A Confession....
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2006, 06:40:01 PM »
I wrote a really long reply earlier and it disappeared when I hit send !!!  :angry:

I get Salmon oil from Holland & Barrett, and the EPO and Vit E also.
Garlic - I get those tubes of fresh squeezy garlic from the supermarket herb section and they get a little dollop of that each on their mince meal at breakfast time.

Re rabbits and worms - I guess that's a decision you have to make - personally I don't worm mine if they eat a rabbit ...

Tilly has been without her raw food for a week now and I can already see the difference in her teeth  :( .  I chose not to feed her on raw while her lipfolds were healing - so she's been on chicken and rice, and fishfingers  :)   She keeps trying to mug the others for their bones though, she really really does not like having cooked food anymore !

Offline sarahp

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« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2006, 09:33:10 PM »
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  She keeps trying to mug the others for their bones
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 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  the thought of Tilly, with her lampshade, mugging the rest of the crew for their bones is hilarious  :ph34r:  Sorry Tilly ;)   Now if she was trying to mug the little guy - that I could understand :P
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Offline Cob-Web

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« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2006, 09:37:40 PM »
I will watch Molo's teeth with interest - he is temporarily going back on Burns for a few days, as I am having my wisdom teeth out tomorrow so will be laid up for a day or two, and OH can't quite cope with feeding raw yet  ;)
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Offline sarahp

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« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2006, 09:43:20 PM »
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I am having my wisdom teeth out tomorrow
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Good luck Rachel - hope you feel better soon :D
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Penel

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« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2006, 11:24:38 PM »
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  She keeps trying to mug the others for their bones
[snapback]181697[/snapback]

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  the thought of Tilly, with her lampshade, mugging the rest of the crew for their bones is hilarious  :ph34r:  Sorry Tilly ;)   Now if she was trying to mug the little guy - that I could understand :P
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size doesn't come into it - Tilly is in charge and they all know it.... besides - little guy isn't arriving til tomorrow !!!  :)  the lampshade is OFF - woohoo !!!

Offline shonajoy

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« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2006, 07:57:18 AM »
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I know I've said it before Shona - but I really was exactly like you before I fed this way  :)  I used to vehemently argue with people why NOT to feed raw !!!! years of experience now though, and chatting to several vets who are pro raw feeding, and I feel differently, obviously !  (I'm not trying to change your mind though I promise !)

Garlic - good for deterring worms n fleas apparently... natural immune "booster".

Salmon oil and EPO - good for coat and numerous other things - basically essential fatty acids, omega 3,6,9 - or you can just get Omega 3,6,9 capsules from Holland & Barrett.

I get kelp powder from www.dorwest.com  they also do another good herbal mix called Keepers Mix - they also sell TreeBarks powder, which is Slippery Elm - the most fabulous powder to give to dogs (and people) with upset tummies....  Dorwest usually have a stand at Crufts if you are going.
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I've chatted to lots of vets that aren't pro-raw feeding, and have had very different answers I bet. ;)  I've also talked to undecided vets, but I haven't met one yet who is pro, to be honest.

I'm sure there are lots of dogs who do fine on it, but I don't get the positives - bone itself isn't particularly nutritious, apart from the marrow, of course the teeth benefits are positive, but I don't even let my dogs play with sticks because of the splinters and their palate. Anal glands - yes, but neither of mine have problems or have them emptid, on a non barf diet, and their teeth are fine too, not a spot of tartar.

Since I have been at the vets, we have had a dog brought in with a bone wedged in it's palate, which had punctured it, and one that had on removed from it's stomach surgically. I don't like this diet being promoted as fabulous all round - I'd feel better about it if there were also information given on the downsides, like there are pointed out all the time to non barf feeders, and what to watch out for.You must have some ngative stories too?

I also think worming is very important if a dog is eating raw, and vital if there are children in the house.


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Offline shonajoy

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« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2006, 07:59:41 AM »
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I was the same as you a few months ago, Shona - its been all the info on here that has driven me to read up loads - and so far, it seems to suit us  :)  We can always go back to kibble if we decide its not for us (Molo might not be too impressed though  :rolleyes: )

One thing that has always slightly worried me about feeding dry food is the long term risk to the kidneys due to the lack of water in the diet - a dry diet relies on the dog to drink enough  <_< The first difference I have noticed with the BARF diet is that Molo is peeing a lot more because there is more liquid in his diet - which can only be a good thing  :)

It has led to some very odd comments though - has anyone else been told that feeding raw meat will turn your dog vicious?? :blink:

Thanks for all the help - I'm sure I'll be back with more questions  ;)  Molo's not had any breakfast yet this morning; I came down to find he had been sick, so I'm waiting to see if its a one-off or a bug  :(
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Bel;ieve me Rachel, I've read a lot on the subject - both for and against. Just because I don't agre or haven't changed my mind, dosn't equate to not having read enough. ;)
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Offline clairep4

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« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2006, 09:44:01 AM »
I'm actually putting forward an idea to the publisher I work for about a book that really deals with canine nutrition properly - the pros and cons of the various diets. I swapped Bella over to raw in November for health reasons (and it does seem to be helping her - she'd had numerous eye and ear infections prior to that and it may just be coincidence but since November she hasn't had any - may not seem like a long time but we were at the vet's every 3-4 weeks before that!).

I agree that it is very hard to get proper information as people either tend to be absolutely pro raw, or absolutely against it. My vet actually has a foot in both camps, he sees the benefits of giving bones for teeth cleaning (he advocates beef bones, this is what he feeds his own dogs because they can chip away at the bone and there is much less risk of splinters - he has not come across dogs who have actually broken their teeth on bones but he has come across dogs who've broken their teeth on stones!). He also said that the most common obstruction he's had to remove from dogs stomachs is conkers and that as long as you are sensible with feeding them bones it should not be a problem - I know that is only one vet's attitude - my mum's vet is vehemently against bones of any kind and my mum, who has owned dogs for over 40 years and had always given them recreational bones and hardly supervised them at all, and never once had a problem, is now absolutely terrified of giving them to he current dog.

I know that there are stories of dogs with bones being stuck and undoubtedly this happens if inappropriate bones are given - I think everyone on here who feeds raw has done alot of reading about it, gives suitable bones, supervises their dog whilst they eat them, and feels at the end of the day that their dog is doing so much better on this diet than they were before, that it is worth the risk. This is how I feel - I am a big worrier about Bella and bones so I am extremely cautious, I smash up chicken and rabbit for her so that she can't swallow big chunks of bone, I avoid lamb because I think it too splintery, I supervise her like a hawk. I'm also not hugely keen on having to deal with raw meat for her but at the end of the day her health has improved and I'd rather have that bit more hassle than be at the vet's every 3-4 weeks with yet another ear infection or watery eyes.

If Bella's health had been good on kibble then I'd have kept her on it - my cats eat kibble and have done so for their whole lives (although interestingly my old cat with failing health, who has been losing weight for 18 months and despite various prescription diets cannot keep much food down, has started pinching raw meat whenever she can and is never sick on it, so much so that we are trying to switch her over to raw completely).

I think alot of the problem is that it's so hard to get decent information, it seems to be such a contentious subject and that makes for mis-information on both sides of the fence. Personally I think at the end of the day you have to do what you think is right for your dog - if they are fit and healthy on kibble (and many are), then stick with it, if they are suffering from numerous niggling infections and the vet cannot find out why, then give raw feeding a try for a few months and see if there is an improvement - if not you can always switch back.  ;)
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Penel

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« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2006, 01:26:24 PM »
Personally - I have no negative experiences. :)

Offline Cob-Web

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« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2006, 02:18:55 PM »
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Bel;ieve me Rachel, I've read a lot on the subject - both for and against. Just because I don't agre or haven't changed my mind, dosn't equate to not having read enough. ;)
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I agree that all the text available is positive and one sided - although John Burns, for whom I have a lot of respect, has written a very interesting article, challenging Ian Billinghursts theory  ;)  

Not having access to many different vets, it is difficult for me to canvas their opinion - but the clinic I am currently registered with sell petfood which is full of ingredients such as maize, soybean extract, egg - all of which I avoided pre-BARF - and if the vets are prepared to endorse these products, I don't think they would share my overall philisophy of avoiding un-natural ingredients  ;)

In my limited experience - 2 weeks of full BARFing, and giving Molo occasional raw bones since he was a pup - we have not experienced any negative reactions/incidents - maybe because as Claire says, I am careful about what and how I give them to him  ;) I  genuinely would like to hear of any cases where an informed/supervised BARF diet has led to problems/injuries......it may lead to me deciding it is too much of a risk  :)
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Offline shonajoy

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« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2006, 02:36:15 PM »
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Bel;ieve me Rachel, I've read a lot on the subject - both for and against. Just because I don't agre or haven't changed my mind, dosn't equate to not having read enough. ;)
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I agree that all the text available is positive and one sided - although John Burns, for whom I have a lot of respect, has written a very interesting article, challenging Ian Billinghursts theory  ;)  

Not having access to many different vets, it is difficult for me to canvas their opinion - but the clinic I am currently registered with sell petfood which is full of ingredients such as maize, soybean extract, egg - all of which I avoided pre-BARF - and if the vets are prepared to endorse these products, I don't think they would share my overall philisophy of avoiding un-natural ingredients  ;)

In my limited experience - 2 weeks of full BARFing, and giving Molo occasional raw bones since he was a pup - we have not experienced any negative reactions/incidents - maybe because as Claire says, I am careful about what and how I give them to him  ;) I  genuinely would like to hear of any cases where an informed/supervised BARF diet has led to problems/injuries......it may lead to me deciding it is too much of a risk  :)
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I'd love to see more unbiased avvounts too, the point I was making is th assumption that people who do not BARF feed, do so because they haven't read enough, which is the way your initial comment cam across. I'd nevr dream of saying to a parent *I used to think like you too, but then I saw the light* idea.

Personally, I won't take the risk. I'm going to ask at work about the incidents I mentioned, and see if I can find out more, but I don't get how sticks ar not good, and crunching through bone is? Cany anyone shed some light on that one  http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Raw_Food_Diet.htm?

Edited to include the Burns link - I've read it before, but maybe others haven't.Have to say the following quote resonated thoroughly


*BARFism puts forward a flawed theory with a certainty which bears comparison to religious fundamentalism; it brooks no dissent. It advocates a system which is impractical and does not fit well into the lifestyle of present society, denying the possibility of alternatives, thereby condemning those pet owners, the majority, to feelings of inadequacy for failure to follow its teachings.*
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Offline Cob-Web

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« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2006, 03:18:55 PM »
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I'd love to see more unbiased avvounts too, the point I was making is th assumption that people who do not BARF feed, do so because they haven't read enough, which is the way your initial comment cam across. I'd nevr dream of saying to a parent *I used to think like you too, but then I saw the light* idea.

Shona, I'm sorry, I did not realise my comments could be taken that way  :( I was only explaining what changed MY mind; I was not suggesting that you had not read up about it or that if you did you would feel the same way - that would be so arrogant and I'm really sorry if I sounded like that  :(  :(

There is a theme of *fundamentalism* running through a lot of raw feeding references that I have read.....I hope I have managed to maintain a scientific scrutiny of the evidence - I certainly seem to being using Google Scholar daily to find journal references and research papers on all aspects of canine nutrition  :rolleyes:  It is one of those subjects that taps into some primative passion though; a couple of doggie people have asked how the new diet is going and I find myself still talking about it after 5 minutes, when they were only expecting a "fine, thanks"  :rolleyes:  :lol:

I agree with you about playing with sticks - I'm totally paranoid; but I have never seen a raw bone spinter in the same way..... :unsure:  I gave Molo a roast knuckle once when he was pup, and that splintered into really sharp shards, but none of the raw bones I have evner given Molo have broken in this way; maybe we're lucky ?? :unsure:

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Offline PennyB

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« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2006, 03:21:15 PM »
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Personally, I won't take the risk. I'm going to ask at work about the incidents I mentioned, and see if I can find out more, but I don't get how sticks ar not good, and crunching through bone is? Cany anyone shed some light on that one  http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Raw_Food_Diet.htm?
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would the bone incidents be with cooked bones though as this would make a difference (mine occasionally get 'stolen' bones from someone's rubbish which are a no-no but do occasionally get given raw chicken wings).
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Offline shonajoy

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« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2006, 03:52:55 PM »
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Personally, I won't take the risk. I'm going to ask at work about the incidents I mentioned, and see if I can find out more, but I don't get how sticks ar not good, and crunching through bone is? Cany anyone shed some light on that one  http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Raw_Food_Diet.htm?
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would the bone incidents be with cooked bones though as this would make a difference (mine occasionally get 'stolen' bones from someone's rubbish which are a no-no but do occasionally get given raw chicken wings).
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I'm going to find out.
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Penel

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« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2006, 07:01:01 PM »
Bones provide calcium - they are of nutritional value.
If you homecook for your dog you have to *add* calcium in some form or other, as just meat, carbs and veg don't include it.