barf debate

[Magic Star]

Incidentally as I already said the fact that the trial I quoted found commercial food to be 100% salmonella free was unexpected. But by allmeans give me the information on dry food - I would welcome it!

I've asked that question before of Barfers and got the response that the trials are run by the commercial dog food manufacturers, so therefore its not a balanced view, I don't think you will ever get a balanced view of for and against Barfing, it seems a subject that people are very defensive over for some reason  

[Rhona W]

I think I read on another thread that the meat has to be raw because that is how the dogs would have eaten it in the wild. Cooking it kind of defeats the object!
So on a similar note: would dogs really eat vegetables and pasta in the wild?

[Magic Star]

I think I read on another thread that the meat has to be raw because that is how the dogs would have eaten it in the wild. Cooking it kind of defeats the object!
So on a similar note: would dogs really eat vegetables and pasta in the wild?

Thanks Rhona

Exactly, and would they have supplements added, nope I doubt it

[Penel]

Morning everyone !
I am slightly reluctant to reply in fear of being accused patronising - honestly really truly I am trying not to be - I really am trying to explain things to you in the simplest way possible - if you find that patronising then I apologise in advance.  
Our homeopathic vet has told me that at least 60% of dogs will test positive for Campylobacter regardless of what they are fed.  As I mentioned earlier Campy is found in most unchlorinated water - so if your dog goes in or drinks puddles, streams, lakes, bogs, it is likely that it will carry Campy.  Most dogs are healthy enough to withstand this - but if your dog is slightly under the weather, then it could well get poorly from Campy.
The reason for leaving meat raw, is that as soon as you "process" (cook) it, the enzymes change completely, and it becomes much harder for a dog to digest.  Dogs have not evolved to eat cooked meat.
Look at your dogs' teeth - they are all sharp and pointy, they have no molars.  We have molars for grinding and breaking down veg and carbs before we swallow.  Dogs do not.  They are not designed to eat grains - be that wheat, pasta, corn, oats.  A wild dog would not eat grains - unless it was the weeniest bit of grain found in its preys tummy - albeit that most rabbits tummies are probably full of green stuff (not grain)....
The commercial pet food industry is a multi billion pound industry - heavily featuring cheap cereals as the basis for most pet foods.....
If you really do feed a true raw diet, you should not have to supplement.  My dogs will graze on herbs and grasses, especially ones that grow beside rivers for some reason.... Omega oils would come from things like eyes and brains, which most people don't want to feed.  Fibre would come from fur and feathers - again most people don't want to feed, so they add veg and hope it will replace those components of the diet.
If raw feeding is so awful for dogs and their humans, how come there aren't thousands of us becoming ill ?  I know loads and loads of people that feed raw - and I have only heard of one person getting salmonella - because he stupidly put a chicken wing in his mouth raw as a joke...

I do find it very frustrating that people can spend so much time on researching and critisizing the negative points of a diet they never intend to feed, what is the point - why can't you accept that we who feed raw are happy with it - we are defensive because you are accusing us of doing something which puts us and our dogs at risk.

[Magic Star]

Thank you Penel for explaining it so well   and no you weren't patrionising this time  

I think the whole Barf V Complete kibble/wet food discussion/debate ends up offending everyone, as Barfers feel got at and peeps who feed complete are made to feel that we aren't doing the best for our dogs, by not going back to nature   I don't think any of it is intended to offend anyone, but in the process of each trying to justify their reasons for their way of feeding thats what happens sadly

At the end of the day, I am very happy feeding Arden Grange to my girl, it suits her, shes extremely healthy, I don't buy into the whole Barf thing, but fair play to you if you think thats whats best for your dog(s), but I feel I am doing the best for my dog too

It is a shame that there isn't any impartial research for us to make an informed decision from though

[clairep4]

Well put, Penel.

Bella's been on a raw diet for about 8 months now. I handle her raw meat the way I do raw meat for myself. I also buy it from the same source, my local butcher. I wash all utensils that have been used to prepare it in hot soapy water the same as I do when I'm preparing a chicken for myself. I wash my hands after putting her breakfast out, if she's dragged a bone onto the floor I mop the floor, her bowl gets washed up after each meal. So to me I can't see where the extra risk comes in, really.

I personally feel that a raw diet has really helped Bella's diet. She was a dog who, in the 7 months we fed her on good quality kibble (either Burns or Arden Grange), had at least 5 bouts of ear infections, 3 eye infections, was almost diagnosed with dry eye, had blocked anal glands all the time and generally didn't seem to be able to fight off infections very well (she had a cough which lasted nearly 8 weeks despite 4 lots of antibiotics of varying kinds - in the end it took a week's rest in the country to sort that one out!).

In the 8 months she's been on a raw diet, she has not had a single ear or eye infection or any other kind of infection (her 3 visits to the vets have been for compllications with her stitches coming undone after a spay, and then for a claw she'd ripped out). IMO that is clear evidence that the raw diet has improved her health.

As Penel has said, alot of this thread seems to be about making out that people who choose to feed raw are being irresponsible in some way, putting their families at risk from horrible diseases and just being faddy about the whole thing. I decided to feed Bella raw after doing lots of research into the risks and benefits and decided that I'd rather handle a bit more raw meat than I do normally and potentially have a much healthier dog. Which is exactly what has happened. I personally think it's up to each owner what they choose to feed, but having said that, I'd have no qualms in recommending a raw diet - not because I think kibble is the root of all evil, but because my experience of a raw diet has been very positive and my experience of kibble was not.

I find it frustrating that whenever these debates come up, it always seems to be about raw feeders having to defend their actions, and if a raw feeder says anything against kibble they're seen as preaching, but kibble feeders saying things against raw feeding aren't - doesn't seem all that balanced to me.

Maybe to balance things out a bit, now that some of us raw feeders have said what benefits we think the diet has for our dogs, some kibble feeders could put forward the benefits they've seen in feeding their dogs kibble? I'm not saying that to spark a war, I just think it would be interesting to have a positive view from the other side of the fence rather than it all being about the "downsides" of a raw diet.  

[Penel]

It is a shame that there isn't any impartial research for us to make an informed decision from though

I agree.  Unfortunately that is the because of the multi billion pound / dollar pet food industry.... however I am sure you have noticed several pet foods trying to make their foods look more "natural", so they are aware of the sway towards more natural feeding.  For example one of the Hills foods now has a picture of a raw chicken breast on the front.  I recently worked on a Pedigree labelling job, and part of the photo was raw lamb chops. lambs kidneys, and some chicken breast.... (I got to take them home for the dogs afterwards !)

[Rhona W]

Thanks Penel that explains a lot.  
Having checked the ingredients on my dogs'dry food it does contain rice and maize, along with other things, so I suppose that is the same as Barfers adding veg. to their dogs' diets.

You see - that is how I was hoping this thread would go. A positive debate where people from both sides explain why they feel their way is best for their dogs, rather than a negative one with both sides putting down the opposition!  

[Magic Star]

Maybe to balance things out a bit, now that some of us raw feeders have said what benefits we think the diet has for our dogs, some kibble feeders could put forward the benefits they've seen in feeding their dogs kibble? I'm not saying that to spark a war, I just think it would be interesting to have a positive view from the other side of the fence rather than it all being about the "downsides" of a raw diet. 

Ok, Indie is fed AG but that hasn't always been the case, as she used to be a very faddy eater   She has been through most of the complete dry foods, she was even on Bakers for a while out of complete desperation by myself to get her to eat   Anyway, in the time we have Indie shes been extremely healthy, she has been the vets a handfull of times in her three years of life, shes had a couple of ear infections and she had pyoderma once.  Her coat is very shiney as are her eyes, she doesn't have dandruff and her tummy is never upset (unless she eats chicken, chicken does not agree with her) her stools are never sloppy, always small and well formed    She has no allergies, is not overweight or underweight, her breath is not pongie (although it was when she was on Bakers) but she does fart now and again  

I have to say I would certainly recommed AG to anyone, it has been a real godsend to us, Indie loves it and shes obviously thriving on it, the only time I would change to something else would be if the product changed in any way, or if Indie stopped eating it, I don't mess with her diet too much as I worry incase she goes back to being Mrs Fussy Drawes   She gets the AG and raw vegetables, with a tin of tuna/pilchards a couple of times a week   I am very happy with her on it!

I am interested to hear about Bellas lack of ear problems since shes been on raw though

[Magic Star]

Emma - thank you for providing me with the most facinating topic to consider while walking to pick Molo up from kennels this morning; I had never considered the possibility that the selective breeding of dogs may also have altered their digestive capacity and give them the ability to tolerate manufactured foods......

Rachel, I didn't start the topic   and i'm not sure what you mean, I am bit slow this morning, are you being funny with me? 

[Rhona W]

Emma - my pups are fed on Bakers as it is what they were weaned on. We asked the vet what he thought of it when we took them for their injections and he said it was as good as any other. However. in the last week or so their poos have turned to mush, bordering on dia-whatsit (sp)! They also stink - the poos, not the dogs! They don't have a problem with bad breath, but Reuben is beginning to fart rather more often than my nose can take!
So we are weaning them onto Arden Grange in the hope that this will improve things. We were advised to do it slowly over 4 days. But to be honest, at the rate their food goes in one end and out the other so quickly, I can't see that it would make much difference if we just switched the food totally straight away.

[Cob-Web]

As below 

[Magic Star]

Edited: due to misunderstanding

[maximus]

The reason for leaving meat raw, is that as soon as you "process" (cook) it, the enzymes change completely, and it becomes much harder for a dog to digest.  Dogs have not evolved to eat cooked meat.
Look at your dogs' teeth - they are all sharp and pointy, they have no molars.  We have molars for grinding and breaking down veg and carbs before we swallow.  Dogs do not.  They are not designed to eat grains - be that wheat, pasta, corn, oats.  A wild dog would not eat grains - unless it was the weeniest bit of grain found in its preys tummy - albeit that most rabbits tummies are probably full of green stuff (not grain)....
The commercial pet food industry is a multi billion pound industry - heavily featuring cheap cereals as the basis for most pet foods.....
If you really do feed a true raw diet, you should not have to supplement.  My dogs will graze on herbs and grasses, especially ones that grow beside rivers for some reason.... Omega oils would come from things like eyes and brains, which most people don't want to feed.  Fibre would come from fur and feathers - again most people don't want to feed, so they add veg and hope it will replace those components of the diet.

I do find it very frustrating that people can spend so much time on researching and critisizing the negative points of a diet they never intend to feed, what is the point - why can't you accept that we who feed raw are happy with it - we are defensive because you are accusing us of doing something which puts us and our dogs at risk.

really well explained, thank you! 

we converted max to raw food from bakers/pedigree (he came to us on pedigree) 6 months ago after max kept getting infections and have never looked back, max hasnt once been to the vet since, he's really heathy, i don't think by feeding barf you are inceasing the risk of bugs if you are careful to keep feeding areas clean.

[kb]

The point of researching this is in the hope that I may find the best way of feeding my dog - even if it does not include raw meat, but substitutin it with cooked meat.

You can argue all youlike but research does show that feeding raw meat increases the risk of nasty bugs to and the transmission of those to humans. This is not opinion it is fact. Increased exposure to pathogens by its very nature increases the risk of infection. I f you could microscopically examine how far your dog can spread these live pathogens from its mouth, its fur, its pooh you would probably be surprised. Why take any precautions with raw meat at all if there is no risk.

No dry kibble is not the best diet for my dog in my opinion - hence the interest in feeding alternatives. As for the wild dog debate- well again people' sopinions are going to be divided. A wild dog is probably not the best model on which to build the optimum diet.

Dogd is the wild are scavengers primarily. They will eat what they can and certainly do eat grass, herbs and naturally occurring foods they can. Yes they sre carnivores but not true carnivores like the cat. Thier digestive system shows this - their teeth are different also than dogs. Dogs digestive systems contain complex processes for breaking down carbohydrate as well as meat. They are born not to eat meat alone. In the wild wolves are not eating prime cuts of cattle, lamb, chicken and so on. They are more likely to eat rats, rabbits and so on, which porvides only a small amount of raw meat, as well as fur etc. Wolf poo is described as being furry to look at. Wolves also suffer severe parasitic infections which often kill them and on being brought in for treatment to rescue centres and so on are often found to be extremely malnourished - because of the poor nature oftheir diet.

Again I am not arguing against BARF - merely presenting some facts for consideration.