What would you do?

[waisis]

As some of you know, I've posted on here about Bailey's on-leash aggression before.  Today, I was walking Bailey on a small patch of grass and an off-leash dog came running towards us and surprised us both.  Most of the time if I keep the leash REALLY loose, he's okay, but since I didn't see the other dog coming, I must have instinctively pulled the leash taunt as he started his crazy barking and chasing the dog.  So basically I was holding on to the leash and Bailey was going around in circles b/c the dog kept running back for more and the other owner was trying to call off her dog which was not listening.  So what should I have done at this point?  Here are things I thought about afterwards (at the time, I couldn't really think straight):
1) Shorten, tighten the leash and try to walk away?  He was already at the end of his leash and I tried to move but couldn't really pull him anywhere.
2) Try some commands that he knows "come", "sit", "watch me" even though he most likely will not obey at this point?  Is it unfair on Bailey to get him to sit while another off-leash dog is jumping all over him?
3) Let go off the leash (if it's a safe area) thinking that he'll be fine with the other dog off-leash, or is it too late already?
4) Lure him to me with a treat on his nose?...but I don't want to be rewarding him for his barking.
Any other ideas?

Maybe I'm thinking about this too much, but I felt kinda dumb and helpless other than yelling "Bailey" and "sit" a few times which were completely ignored.  I always post bad things in the behaviour section about Bailey, but he did really well this week with responding to the whistle and coming away from a big muddy puddle with 20 tennis balls that he was digging!  Okay fine, I did have to blow the whistle twice   

[Cob-Web]

  I hate it when training is hijacked by irresponsible owners 

I'm not sure what I would have done..........I know that Mark (TopBarks) advises only give a command if you think it will be obeyed, so I probably wouldn't have asked him to come/sit etc at that point  I probably would have let Molo off lead - but that is because I know how he will react.....if you don't know with Bailey, then it's more of a risk.

If you lure him with a treat, then you are not rewarding the barking, per se, but rewarding his moving away from the confrontation - if it worked (and it probably wouldn't with Molo cos the other dog would hold his attention), I would probably jackpot reward him once I had his attention (assuming the other dog wasn't still trying to get in on the act  )

[lexi]

Problems like this often arise when one dog is on leash and the other not. It's a totally unfair situation and very frustrating for the owner!
This has happened to me many times in the past and my spontaneous reaction today is just to let go of the leash.
I wouldn't lure him with a treat because the other dog will smell it too.
From the sound of it, the situation had escalated to such a point that Bailey would not have obeyed your commands, if he at all heard them, as he was focusing on the other dog.
I don't know how Bailey interacts with other dogs off lead but, from my experience, there is far less aggression among dogs off lead than on.

Life with a cocker is never dull, is it!

[jools]

I would probably have done exactly what you did. I agree with Mark's thinking - only give the command if you think it's not going to be ignored.....and I'm going to do that the next time a dog dares to walk past our garden and my 2 go mental.

I don't think I would have let go of his leash. Even if I knew how he would react, I wouldn't be sure of how the other dog would have reacted to the previous show of aggression and wouldn't want to risk putting my dog in danger of getting a beating.

The only thing I can think of to add would be trying to work on Bailey's reaction to oncoming off lead dogs. Is there any way you can borrow a stooge dog and work with Bailey rewarding him when he ignores the other dog coming near him?

Hope this helps - and sorry you were both put in such a stressful situation.

[Saffaroo]

Hmmm...this is interesting, as I have been in the situation many, many times with Saffy and without doubt each 'situation' seems to be different.  I agree that in my (limited) experience, on lead aggression is very often diffused, sometimes completely by releasing the lead; but my immediate reaction is simply not to do that!  on the occasions that I have been able to, ie in a completely safe area (not many around here when we are just town walking) Saffy is a different dog almost instantly and most times she will be nice and friendly with the other dog. Sometimes though, it's like the other dog is completely invisible, and she won't react at all.  It's like 'messages' between them have already been exchanged  could that be ?  We have a number of loose dogs wandering around our streets here in Gozo; it is annoying as they are all owned and it is not usually those Saffy has a problem with, more likely the dog which has got loose - that's when I worry   so, whilst I haven't got any tips to deal with this I can totally understand your worries 

[Billybang]

In that situation I would get my dog to sit at my heal and reign in the lead. I would talk to him calmly and tell him what a good boy he is and practise your stop barking command, whether you use quiet, no, or stop! Until the owner came to collect her untrained dog!!

The golden rule I have always passed on to other dog owners is that if you should spot a dog on lead, lead your own dog or recall to stay away, there is always a reason for a dog on lead, aggression, season, fear or training and other dog owners should always be considerate of this.

It is a shame this happened but work hard at home on your dog recongising a command to stop barking, reward with treats or lots of praise.

I hope that his aggression towards other dogs is soon sorted out, just take small steps and remember lots of praise.

[Cob-Web]

In that situation I would get my dog to sit at my heal and reign in the lead. I would talk to him calmly and tell him what a good boy he is and practise your stop barking command, whether you use quiet, no, or stop! Until the owner came to collect her untrained dog!!

This is not always possible when you have a whirling dervish on the other end of the lead - it is unfair to expect a dog that has not been desensitised to a situation that stresses them to respond to your commands; it just sets them up to fail

Certainly, a calm, heeled dog is the ultimate goal - but achieved through a gradual, structured training programme where the dog is not pushed beyond it's tolerance boundaries 

[Jan/Billy]

I'd definately walk him away from the situation, not in a panic mode just gently as though you were going to walk away anyway. I'd say in a nice cheery voice "this way" & carry on with your walk.  It's happened a couple of times to me too & I know how frustrating it is.

[Rhona W]

In that situation I would get my dog to sit at my heal and reign in the lead. I would talk to him calmly and tell him what a good boy he is and practise your stop barking command, whether you use quiet, no, or stop! Until the owner came to collect her untrained dog!!

Sorry but in the situation Waisis described that would not have worked. It is alright if you see the dog coming and so can head off/prevent your own dog's reaction. But once your dog is lunging and barking then it is too late. Especially if the other dog is still circling/barking/chasing at your dog.     

I agree with Jan and would try to drag walk my dog away from the situation whilst talking calmly to him. But try not to trip over him as he lunges across you and so end up flat on your face sprawled in the street. 

[*Jay*]

I'm another one who would walk away. Disney is very reactive to other dogs so he would most definitely start lunging and barking which in turn sets off the others. When we have been faced with this situation in the past, I just turn around and walk the other way. WE do have a command "watch me" which I can use if I spot the dog first or they are a decent distance away but if they are right in your face, theres no point trying to use it as it will be ignored.

[waisis]

Ah, lots of ideas!  The more I think about it, it probably wouldn't have been safe to let go of the leash if he decided to chase this dog off.  We were also next to a street.  Next time, I will try to walk away and encourage him to do so instead of telling him to "sit".  I think I was confusing myself at the time b/c I know he is fine with a really loose leash and I kept on thinking that he would calm down once the leash went slack...which it never did b/c he was, as suggested, "a whirling dervish"!  The other dog seemed friendly enough, but definitely exuberant and I don't think Bailey appreciates that when he's on-leash.  This same situation happened not too long ago, but the other owner had 2 off-leash dogs and Bailey was barking and lunging at one of the dogs like a lunatic and in the split second after, he was calming sniffing/greeting the guy's other dog!  It was pretty weird--but the one he was sniffing seemed like a very calm, non-reactive Goldie.  Thanks for the replies and reasonings! 

[waisis]

If you lure him with a treat, then you are not rewarding the barking, per se, but rewarding his moving away from the confrontation - if it worked (and it probably wouldn't with Molo cos the other dog would hold his attention), I would probably jackpot reward him once I had his attention (assuming the other dog wasn't still trying to get in on the act  )

That's kinda what I thought too, until I went out with our trainer and she observed me with Bailey.  He barked at another dog and I said "quiet" and he stopped barking so I clicked and treated.  I thought, okay, I marked and rewarded him because he obeyed the "quiet" command.  But what I found out was that it had started a pattern of Bailey barking at the dog until I said "quiet" and then looking at me and wagging his tail like he's all proud of himself and waiting for his treat!  My trainer said that I should pay attention to the sequence of events and that I shouldn't have clicked/treated him as he was associating his reward with "BARKING then QUIET" and he had shown an undersirable behaviour first--i.e., the barking.  It kinda made sense, but gives me even more to think about when training.  For those of you who clicker train, what do you think about what this trainer taught me? 

[Rhona W]

I suppose it does make sense.It's the same as treating for obeying the 'off' the settee command. Some dogs soon learn that all they have to do is jump on the settee to get a treat.  Bailey has learnt if he barks and then stops, he will be rewarded. So you need to work towards rewarding for not barking at all. 
With Casper I praise and treat as soon as he looks at another dog, so as to get in first. He then continues to get treats until the dog has passed us or until he barks, so that (hopefully) tells him that barking stops the treats.  It's a long slow process though, as I'm sure you already know. 

I don't use my clicker at all in these situations as my trainer says sometimes the dog associates the click with rewarding the emotion. So Casper thinks he is being rewarded for feeling anxious and will look upon it as a good thing. I'm not sure I've explained that very well so I hope you understand what I mean. 

[Cob-Web]

My trainer said that I should pay attention to the sequence of events and that I shouldn't have clicked/treated him as he was associating his reward with "BARKING then QUIET" and he had shown an undersirable behaviour first--i.e., the barking.  It kinda made sense, but gives me even more to think about when training.  For those of you who clicker train, what do you think about what this trainer taught me? 

I don't agree  - this is unlikely to occur if you use variable and intermittent reinforcement - once the dog has learnt the command in a training situation via the clicker, then the next step is shaping and at this stage, a reinforcement schedule will be used and this makes the behaviour more resilient  There is a fantastic explanation of how this works in Chapter 5 of The Culture Clash - using the vending machine/slot machine analogy.......

In the case of the quiet command, shaping the behaviour would be training him to respond to the command in a number of different situations, working up to a "stooge" dog training environment - I wouldn't introduce a trigger (in Bailey case, another dog) into a training exercise for the command quiet until I was confident that he was reliable with the command in lower distraction environments.

Although your aim is to train Bailey to stop barking at other dogs, what you actually want him to learn is to stop barking when you say quiet.....so if you teach this first, then you can shape it to be effective in different situations - including when there are other dogs present 

[clairep4]

Bella went through a phase of being on-lead aggressive after being attacked and she is the same, okay if the lead is loose but if another dog were to run up to her she'd probably be pretty unhappy about it.

I guess if it were me I'd have said "this way Bella" in a chirpy voice and tried to move away, but if the other dog wasn't about to leave us alone I'd drop the lead and give her the freedom to move without restriction - I think it's a really difficult one because like you, by that point I wouldn't really know if she'd calm down off the lead because she'd be already pretty wound up by then. But I know that it can be worse if you keep them on a taught lead as you pull them into a more aggressive stance without meaning to and they're caught giving off the wrong signals.

I wouldn't bother trying to get Bella to sit or whatever, it would be more about getting some eye contact with her and trying to move away. I think it's unfair to expect them to suddenly be really calm when actually it's the other dog causing the problem.