What would you do?

[PennyB]

I suppose it does make sense.It's the same as treating for obeying the 'off' the settee command. Some dogs soon learn that all they have to do is jump on the settee to get a treat.  Bailey has learnt if he barks and then stops, he will be rewarded. So you need to work towards rewarding for not barking at all. 

Sometimes this can also be down to bad timing on the trainer's part (am speaking generally here) --- as it can be quite subtle (I learnt that in the early days as it was very easy for my dog trainer to point out in the 1-2-1s we had that I was mistiming and accidentally rewarding the bad behaviour which wasn't obvious unless you were observed doing it)

I find with the 'usual' stuff they don't receive treats other than praise any more but the more difficult stuff I break down into stages where the simpler parts they already know are not rewarded so they have to work harder to get to the next part of the process.

In cases where they just aren't listening and are going loopy on the lead I've obviously missed the point where they will listen to me any more so walking them away is the only way to go; however, if I see a flashpoint in the distance (usually in Wilf's case its a collie or large black male dog that's often a problem --- he just doesn''t like them generally) before they do then I began focusing their attention on me (food bar technique or similar) so I can either walk them away without them even noticing the problem ahead or they're pretty well focused on me not to care by the time we get there.

[waisis]

Thanks for the replies.  It's always good to know I'm not the only one with on-leash problems...especially after we were pretty much obsessive about socializing Bailey with other dogs when he was a pup to make sure he wouldn't have aggression problems later on due to lack of socialization.  You try to do the best, but things don't always turn out exactly as you had imagined...kinda like life in general I guess!

I don't use my clicker at all in these situations as my trainer says sometimes the dog associates the click with rewarding the emotion. So Casper thinks he is being rewarded for feeling anxious and will look upon it as a good thing. I'm not sure I've explained that very well so I hope you understand what I mean. 

That's kinda interesting...but then any time you use the clicker, it will always be marking the present emotion as well as the actual action/behaviour.  What if the dog was still feeling anxious, but able to look at you even though he was anxious--I think you would still want to mark that, wouldn't you??  Just asking.  I generally use the clicker as much as I can, and never thought about not using it in these specific situations.  More food for thought!   

[Rhona W]

I don't use my clicker at all in these situations as my trainer says sometimes the dog associates the click with rewarding the emotion. So Casper thinks he is being rewarded for feeling anxious and will look upon it as a good thing. I'm not sure I've explained that very well so I hope you understand what I mean. 

That's kinda interesting...but then any time you use the clicker, it will always be marking the present emotion as well as the actual action/behaviour.  What if the dog was still feeling anxious, but able to look at you even though he was anxious--I think you would still want to mark that, wouldn't you??  Just asking.  I generally use the clicker as much as I can, and never thought about not using it in these specific situations.  More food for thought!   

I don't really know the answer to that. 
Reuben has on lead aggression and had lunged at a dog at training class. I got his attention and sat him behind my chair. The trainer then said she wouldn't click in that situation as he was anxious and it could mark the emotion and not the behaviour. I could still treat him for sitting, but not click.
I know Mark (Top Barks) has said something about this before. I'll see if I can find his explanation as I'm sure it will be better than mine.   

[Top Barks]

Hi guys, just picked up on this.
I would have turned around and got me and my dog out of this situation asap maybe throwing food at the other dog to distract it.
Once your dog reacts he is in self defence mode and you giving him instructions just will not work.
Mark

[Rhona W]

Found it. 

I would also be careful when using a clicker when emotions are running high.
The saying goes you get what you click and some behaviourists believe the click can capture not only a behaviour but also emotions.
If you therefore click a stressed, frightened dog you could be in effect reinforcing the dog for her emotions.
Mark

I don't know if this would apply in Bailey's case or not.    I know I was advised not to click Reuben when he was stressed/anxious, so I don't use it in stressful situations at all for either of my dogs. 

[waisis]

Interesting...
Thanks Mark for your thoughts...I'll have to remember not to stand there yelling commands like an idiot the next time!

[Jan/Billy]

Found it. 

I would also be careful when using a clicker when emotions are running high.
The saying goes you get what you click and some behaviourists believe the click can capture not only a behaviour but also emotions.
If you therefore click a stressed, frightened dog you could be in effect reinforcing the dog for her emotions.
Mark

I don't know if this would apply in Bailey's case or not.    I know I was advised not to click Reuben when he was stressed/anxious, so I don't use it in stressful situations at all for either of my dogs. 

Billy's behaviourist advised the same , she said their is currently a big "clicker debate" going on in the dog behaviour/training world 

[waisis]

Ooooo really?  I'll have to talk to my doggy daycare person, she is attending a big animal training conference this weekend and gets lots of the latest information.

[Sheryl]

My trainer said to me that there was no use using my clicker when Kali is hell bent on something else nor was there any point in keep calling frantically in a situation that I wasn't going to be able to manage.  I use my clicker all the time, it is becoming second nature now, even after three weeks!  Billie (trainer) told me that dogs see in pictures, they have to recognise the picture before you can put a word to it.  Never had a lead aggressive dog but I do have one that won't stop barking when you stop still for even a few seconds   Working on it though    

[Cob-Web]

Billy's behaviourist advised the same , she said their is currently a big "clicker debate" going on in the dog behaviour/training world 

I'd be interested in hearing more about that 

I have to admit, I don't use a clicker the way a lot of people do; I use it in planned "training sessions" (some of which are *on the road*) but don't use it in any day-to-day situations 

[Top Barks]

Found it. 

I would also be careful when using a clicker when emotions are running high.
The saying goes you get what you click and some behaviourists believe the click can capture not only a behaviour but also emotions.
If you therefore click a stressed, frightened dog you could be in effect reinforcing the dog for her emotions.
Mark

I don't know if this would apply in Bailey's case or not.    I know I was advised not to click Reuben when he was stressed/anxious, so I don't use it in stressful situations at all for either of my dogs. 

Billy's behaviourist advised the same , she said their is currently a big "clicker debate" going on in the dog behaviour/training world 

Whats the big debate about using a clicker?
It is just a case of using operant or classical conditioning in various situations.
The way i work i use classical conditioning(pairing something scary with some thing nice if my dog is fearful) and operant conditioning using a conditioned reinforcer such as the clicker when teaching a new behaviour where there is no upset or fear present.
You can use a clicker when teaching an appropriate behaviour around other dogs but do it at a distance where your dog feels comfortable.
if the dogs are up close and personal there is the chance that emotions are running high you need to get to a distance where the dog will be able to relax before using a clicker.
If I thought the dog was too wound up i personally wouldn't use one as there is every chance in the dogs stressed state that learning anything would be impossible anyway.
Mark

[Cob-Web]

The way i work i use classical conditioning(pairing something scary with some thing nice if my dog is fearful) and operant conditioning using a conditioned reinforcer such as the clicker when teaching a new behaviour where there is no upset or fear present.

Mark - that is what I was trying to say, badly  I only use a clicker when I am "in control" of the whole situation, I wouldn't use it in a situation where triggers/distractions were not of my making, iyswim   

[Jan/Billy]

Found it. 

I would also be careful when using a clicker when emotions are running high.
The saying goes you get what you click and some behaviourists believe the click can capture not only a behaviour but also emotions.
If you therefore click a stressed, frightened dog you could be in effect reinforcing the dog for her emotions.
Mark

I don't know if this would apply in Bailey's case or not.    I know I was advised not to click Reuben when he was stressed/anxious, so I don't use it in stressful situations at all for either of my dogs. 

Billy's behaviourist advised the same , she said their is currently a big "clicker debate" going on in the dog behaviour/training world 

Whats the big debate about using a clicker?

Basically what you said about clicker reinforcing the emotions.

Originally I came up with the idea that I take Billy out and when he sees a dog I immediately click & treat ( providing he was being good of course) . She told me to stop doing this as I don't know whats going through his mind at the time I click, He could be thinking "oh I want to kill that dog!!" and me clicking is rewarding the thought. So instead only click when he gets into the habit of seeing another dog & looking at me.

Apparently different behaviourists currently have differing views on this & is hot topic

[Cob-Web]

Found it. 

I would also be careful when using a clicker when emotions are running high.
The saying goes you get what you click and some behaviourists believe the click can capture not only a behaviour but also emotions.
If you therefore click a stressed, frightened dog you could be in effect reinforcing the dog for her emotions.
Mark

I don't know if this would apply in Bailey's case or not.    I know I was advised not to click Reuben when he was stressed/anxious, so I don't use it in stressful situations at all for either of my dogs. 

Billy's behaviourist advised the same , she said their is currently a big "clicker debate" going on in the dog behaviour/training world 

Whats the big debate about using a clicker?

Basically what you said about clicker reinforcing the emotions.

Originally I came up with the idea that I take Billy out and when he sees a dog I immediately click & treat ( providing he was being good of course) . She told me to stop doing this as I don't know whats going through his mind at the time I click, He could be thinking "oh I want to kill that dog!!" and me clicking is rewarding the thought. So instead only click when he gets into the habit of seeing another dog & looking at me.

Apparently different behaviourists currently have differing views on this & is hot topic

I agree with your trainer - I would not use a clicker in that way........ 

I would use the clicker to teach the "watch" command in a non-distraction environment, so that there is no association between emotion and the command. I would slowly shape the behaviour in higher distraction environments that I could control, working up to using a stooge dog in a carefully managed environment.......only once the command was bomb-proof would I ask the dog to look at me when I was walking in a non-training environment 

I suppose it depends how you have been taught to use the clicker - I was taught to identify the command I wanted to teach first, and then teach this with no distractions first - then shape it in different environments before I expected the command to "work" in day-to-day situations 

It sounds to me as if the debate is about an adaptation of the original clicker training principle......tbh, I've not read any clicker training material that advises that it is used in a "live" situation like you describe   

[Jan/Billy]

I agree with your trainer - I would not use a clicker in that way........ 

I would use the clicker to teach the "watch" command in a non-distraction environment, so that there is no association between emotion and the command. I would slowly shape the behaviour in higher distraction environments that I could control, working up to using a stooge dog in a carefully managed environment.......only once the command was bomb-proof would I ask the dog to look at me when I was walking in a non-training environment 

I suppose it depends how you have been taught to use the clicker - I was taught to identify the command I wanted to teach first, and then teach this with no distractions first - then shape it in different environments before I expected the command to "work" in day-to-day situations 

It sounds to me as if the debate is about an adaptation of the original clicker training principle......tbh, I've not read any clicker training material that advises that it is used in a "live" situation like you describe   

The idea is that I don't ask him to look at me, he instinctively does it when he sees another dog. At the moment I'm throwing food on the floor when he sees a dog, eventually he will realise that another dog means food & he will automatically look at me, rather than look at me because I've asked him to do so.

I know my idea of clciking when he saw a dog was a bad idea, I just thought i was moving things along a bit    I only did it for one day though