Pulling

[Alpha]

Now I feel really mean again...

[Nicola]

Now I feel really mean again...

Don't. One quick check back on the lead is kinder than them constantly straining and choking themselves against it, I've seen dogs practically walking on their back legs garrotting themselves on their collars. That force is a lot more likely to cause damage.

[cazza]

Agree totally with Nicola   

[Alpha]

i have just had 2 of the best walks ever with Lils, however i did do the most severe of the lot and did the kneeling down and pulling her back to me. 

I don't think that is sever at all it is what I've been shown by a professional working dog trainer 

As long as you kneel down or go low and pull you are not hurting them

How can it not be uncomfortable or painful to pull on an animals neck?   

No matter what the "angle" you use, or what level you stand at, if you use force against living flesh, then it will compress, leading to pressure on nerve endings, which sends pain signals to the brain  It also leads to damage to the delicate blood vessels under the skin and consequently, bruising   

I have to say I've only had to do this to Lilly twice, but the advice i have had from others who have working cocker's has been invaluable she has gone from "pulling like a steamtrain" to acknowledging "no" very quickly.
IYO what other way could I have done this, as i have tried treats, stopping and turning around and she still bounds off in front and insist on being in front of me and Luke, which is a bit of a liability with a 4 year old on a bike, one of them would get hurt. She doesn't pull in a dominant way just a "hurry up mum and let get me off my lead"  . Its more enthusiasm than naughtiness.

[Top Barks]

i have just had 2 of the best walks ever with Lils, however i did do the most severe of the lot and did the kneeling down and pulling her back to me. 

I don't think that is sever at all it is what I've been shown by a professional working dog trainer 

As long as you kneel down or go low and pull you are not hurting them

Sorry but I could not read this with out having to have a rant.
HOW DO THEY KNOW they are not hurting the dog.
This makes me really angry
I would much prefer to persevere with reward based methods and use a harness in the meantime rather than risk hurting my dog or my relationship with it.
If you use punishment it should be so severe as so the dog will NEVER repeat the behaviour.
How many gun dog trainers hand on heart can say they use only one jerk on the lead and their dog never pulls again.
I doubt very few if any!
 

Mark

[Top Barks]

Now I feel really mean again...

Don't. One quick check back on the lead is kinder than them constantly straining and choking themselves against it, I've seen dogs practically walking on their back legs garrotting themselves on their collars. That force is a lot more likely to cause damage.

I Don't agree Nicola, surely a harness is a more ethical solution in the best interests of the dog rather than any yanking back of the dogs neck no matter how brief.
Mark

[Nicola]

Now I feel really mean again...

Don't. One quick check back on the lead is kinder than them constantly straining and choking themselves against it, I've seen dogs practically walking on their back legs garrotting themselves on their collars. That force is a lot more likely to cause damage.

I Don't agree Nicola, surely a harness is a more ethical solution in the best interests of the dog rather than any yanking back of the dogs neck no matter how brief.
Mark

I wasn't talking about harnesses though, the OP uses a slip lead on her dog and in that case then I do think that checking them back is more 'ethical' than continually letting them choke themselves.

[Cob-Web]

Now I feel really mean again...

Don't. One quick check back on the lead is kinder than them constantly straining and choking themselves against it, I've seen dogs practically walking on their back legs garrotting themselves on their collars. That force is a lot more likely to cause damage.

I Don't agree Nicola, surely a harness is a more ethical solution in the best interests of the dog rather than any yanking back of the dogs neck no matter how brief.
Mark

I wasn't talking about harnesses though, the OP uses a slip lead on her dog and in that case then I do think that checking them back is more 'ethical' than continually letting them choke themselves.

Or, presumably, change the lead for something more humane? 

[Susie B]

Hello there,  I too am getting quite distressed about Sally pulling on the lead.  She is only 12 wks old and has only been out on the lead for 1wk.  We give her lots of off-lead time and her recall is pretty good, but as soon as the lead goes on she starts pulling.  I'm so worried it's going to do her some damage.  She may only be a puppy but I'm sure her pulling power would compete with that of my brother's huskies  Seriously though, it is a real worry.  In all other respects she has been a star in her response to training.  I've tried stopping, turning around etc...it doesn't seem to matter what direction we are heading in she pulls!!   Is she too young for a harness?
(Hope you don't mind me jumping in on your thread Alpha)
Sue

[Top Barks]

I found a small sporn harness works well depending on the size of your pup.
mark

[Susie B]

I found a small sporn harness works well depending on the size of your pup.
mark

Thanks for the advice Mark, I shall look into that.

[debz]

Now I feel really mean again...

Don't. One quick check back on the lead is kinder than them constantly straining and choking themselves against it, I've seen dogs practically walking on their back legs garrotting themselves on their collars. That force is a lot more likely to cause damage.

yeah you ought to see some go round the show ring :005:front legs don't even touch ground some times  i have done the same with tom one quick check better than be constantly choked!

[Top Barks]

Is it just one check though?

[debz]

If it hurt them that much they would'nt pull again but of coarse they do  i'm all for finding the kindest methods that work and use reward but he still sometimes pushes it he is like a 3/5 yrs child and they need guidence and some boundries sorry if this affends mark but everyone works differently

[Top Barks]

If it hurt them that much they would'nt pull again but of coarse they do  i'm all for finding the kindest methods that work and use reward but he still sometimes pushes it he is like a 3/5 yrs child and they need guidence and some boundries sorry if this affends mark but everyone works differently

No it doesn't offend me at all  and as you say everyone has different methods but all I'll say in response is would you put something round your child's neck and yank it back?
If not why not? Don't they need to learn boundaries in the same way?
Yanking a dog back does not teach a dog what is right or wrong.
Dogs learn to ignore punishment (even if it hurts and dogs are very good at masking pain) and that is why low levels will not work and you will have to keep using it.
If someone kept yanking you back by your neck I'm sure it would do your long term health prospects a world of good.
You have the potential to damage your dog's  health and your long term relationship by constantly yanking back but hey that is up to you.
If you are going to use punishment then it should be so severe so that it is only needed to be used once and not having to be constantly applied.
I really am becoming disillusioned with this forum at the minute as there is lots of talk of yanking and other aversive methods which have no place in the modern dog trainers armoury.
I went to a springer last week who's owner had been showed the Jerk and release method by a local gun dog trainer and been advised to use a slip lead and give it a damn good yank.
The owner wondered why the dog cowered when having the lead put on.
Why do you think that was then?
I'm not saying this is the case in every dog but it has the potential to be.
I have said  before on this forum that owners must do what sits right with them but personally I can't bring myself to use physical punishment for what is a reflex action (which is what pulling is).
I suppose it's like if a doctor hit your knee with a hammer and your knee moved (reflex action) that someone yanked your leg as a punishment.
No matter what punishment you dole out the reflex action will still happen (You can't help it).
The key to this is to teach the dog to walk on a slack lead in the first place but this takes time and patience.
A lot of people I meet want it done yesterday so use punishment, which works for a time before the dog learns to ignore it which then makes matters worse as they have to keep using it and upping the anti.
I am not saying that yanking a dog back by its neck never works, but most owners I come accross do it in anger and frustration and do not understand how to apply punishment and have no concept of the possible pitfalls that go with it which is why many dogs end up being PTS or rehomed.
Mark