Advice please on what to do about growling and snapping

[Top Barks]

I am sorry if my query has caused a heated debate and I want to thank all that have replied for your advice - I am sure Joanne didn't expect to get the backlash she is getting, as she was just trying to give me tips on worse case scenario, so thanks for that.

The point I am trying to make is that this advice might just get you bitten!
People are free to do whatever they want with their own dogs but you have to be ever so careful when giving advice that has potential to go wrong no matter how well it is intended.
People often take advice as gospel.
 I went to see a dog yesterday whose owner had been given the advice of buying a choke chain and giving it a damn good yank by a gentleman she respected and had been a dog owner for forty years.
It took me the whole hour to convince her this was a bad idea.
Rather than looking for a solution on here, I would enlist a local reputable trainer who can show you safe and non confrontational ways to deal with this issue first hand.
Any aggression, guarding against humans is a serious problem and needs to be looked at.
aggression towards you has nothing to do with the pecking order as you are not a dog and cannot act or communicate like one. your dog just sees you as just a threat to a valuable resource period.
This is all about resources and the ability to posses them and this is the issue you must address.
best of luck with this one.
Mark

[Claire83]

I'm not overly experienced but I would agree with Penny. Although Roxy is a puppy our trainer told us that you should never just take something away from them as this can cause guarding problems but to offer them something  valuable to them in return like a tasky bonio or favourite toy.
She taught us the phrase " Hands are there to give, not take".
HTH and Good luck. x

[Spangles]

Sorry Mark I probably confused you in my initial posting but I do realise that I am not in the pecking order as the view that you have got to be "top dog" is very outdated and not something I have ever tried to put into practice - I meant pecking order between the dogs.   That was kind of the reason for my initial posting as the dogs may grumble at each other but never at me before so it was a shock.

I do know about trading rather than snatching from a dog and I suppose if I had have done that this situation may never have occured.  My worry is that by returning things to Lottie that Jess has stolen from her may now be causing Jess to get grumbly with me, she probably thought I was taking it to give it to Lottie.?  You just don't know sometimes how their little minds work.

She is still my gorgeous munchkin (they both mean the world to me) and I am sure I can work it out - if it means they can only have chewies with strict supervision then that is what I will do,  maybe I have relaxed things a little too much as they usually get on so well?

[Cob-Web]

I know it is probably wrong to take things back from Jess that she has taken from Lottie and give them back to her but its a bit heartbreaking to see Jess sat chewing one chew with another in reserve and Lottie having none.  I usually do supervise when they have these items and they are both fine, it only occurs if I am distracted by someone at the door or the phone etc, as soon as this happens Jess is in like lightening and Lottie might make some grumbling noises but usually accepts it.  Would it be best to leave Jess with both in future if it happens or I maybe just go back to not allowing them to have chewies, even though they both really enjoy them.

We have only been a "two dog" family for a few months - but I try not to interfere with their interactions at all; so if Bonnee takes something from Molo, or Molo from Bonnee, I leave them to sort it out  Sometimes they will defend their own treat/toy, but other times they don't bother, or go back and retrieve it when the thief has lost interest 

[Abby]

Hi Munchmunch

Your 2 sound quite like ours sometimes, when it comes to 'sharing' toys (though not treats luckily). When Dyl joined our family, I had limited experience about 2 dog familys, and I must say I defo made the mistake of reuturning Dyl's stolen toys to him after Clive had pinched them. Im sure now that this encouraged Dylan to bark extensively after Clive nicked a toy, he's probaby saying 'mum! he did it again, get it back for me!' because he quickly learnt that's what I Did do  . Dogs don't think like we do, but they do learn veruy quickly that a behavious will get a certain reaction.

So, these days, like Rachel says I either leave them to it, and if I have to deal with Dyl's barking. Or if its causing annoying levels of chuntering I put the toy away altogether, then no-one gets it. And the toy is not taken away in an angry way, but eithe rin a bright and breezy 'toys away now' way, or as a trade to the one involved.

I think you dealt with the tea towel incident well, by backing off. Like Mark said, guarding against people needs sorting out pronto, so if you can do find a good local behaviourist. If it helps, separate the dogs while they have their chews, just to ensure there are no problems. You don't want this to get worse while you help Jess sort out her guarding issue.

[Spangles]

Thanks for that Abby you've made me realise I am not the only one with this issue.

This really is the first time she has shown me or anyone else any agression and I do blame myself.

I just want the best for both of them.

I was quite shocked when we first got Jess how vocal they can be with one another when tussling over toys but I have got used to that now and know it is all just noise really because they are constantly wagging their tails.

As you said they quickly learn how to push your buttons.

I think I will do as you suggest and separate them whilst having chewies for a while and if Lotties does gets pinched I will just ignore it, she tends to take advantage of the situation anyway by coming over with a sad face for a bit of a cuddle and Jess is usually too busy chomping to notice.

[Abby]

Oh God you're Definitely not alone!

There are two great books I always trot out on these occasions, both by Jean Donaldson, "mine" all about guarding and "Fight" which I think every multi-dog house should have, not just for scrapping dogs, but it has a great section on dog-dog guarding. They're not immediately easy to use, as they are technical training manuals really, but well worth reading a few times. They helped me to come up with a trainnig plan for my two to work on Clive's guarding behaviour.

I started by writing down in simple sentences the things I wanted to change and then, going through the books to see what they said, looking for connection between the behaviours (sometimes the most obvious behaviour isn't actually the one you need to tackle first), prioritising the issues and then coming up with a step-by-step plan to solve them. Really helped me feel more confident about my training abilities.

Let us know how you get on. But do take heart that Jess is giving you warning signals - the growling and air snapping, and continue to take note of them. They are very important.

[joanne_v]

Not going to elaborate on a response to previous posts but I would be very interested to hear how anyone else would deal with the situation I described. Once again can I point out it was meant as a last resort for an extreme case and that I do practise lots of positive behaviour techniques and have also studied dog behaviour extensively. Rescue dogs are a lot more complicated than most and i've worked with them for over a decade. I'm sure all my clients would vouch that I have helped with a number of training and behaviour issues and that their dogs are delighted to be in my company 

The thing with forums is that its not an ideal place to give advice on serious issues. A solution to a behaviour problem needs a thorough session with a good behaviourist so bits and pieces of advice from here is not necessarily going to help at all. Perhaps no advice should be given other than to find a reputable behaviourist.

[Top Barks]

Not going to elaborate on a response to previous posts but I would be very interested to hear how anyone else would deal with the situation I described. Once again can I point out it was meant as a last resort for an extreme case and that I do practise lots of positive behaviour techniques and have also studied dog behaviour extensively. Rescue dogs are a lot more complicated than most and i've worked with them for over a decade. I'm sure all my clients would vouch that I have helped with a number of training and behaviour issues and that their dogs are delighted to be in my company 

The thing with forums is that its not an ideal place to give advice on serious issues. A solution to a behaviour problem needs a thorough session with a good behaviourist so bits and pieces of advice from here is not necessarily going to help at all. Perhaps no advice should be given other than to find a reputable behaviourist.

Personally I do feel qualified to give advice on here because of my experience,qualifications and what i do for a living, but if someone comes to you for advice you have to be so careful that you get it right.
I do agree with Joanne that a forum is not the place to solve complex behavioural issues from because many people will not have the knowledge or experience to do so.
To advise on behavioural issues involves a process of questioning, obeservation of the dog and owner and listening to the client to get to the bottom of what is going on and this process cannot be done without a face to face meeting.
Some issues can be advised upon however on a forum and need to be done so in an informed and educated manner that puts neither dog or owner at risk of harm.

Mark