Author Topic: Good Book!  (Read 3864 times)

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Offline KellyS

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Good Book!
« on: December 31, 2007, 01:29:59 PM »
My hubby Adam bought me an excellent book for Christmas by dog behaviour expert Cesar Millan called Cesar's Way.

I am already a fan of his TV programme the Dog Whisperer which is on most nights during the week and have already read this book from cover to cover and have found it to be excellent reading. I would recommend anybody that owns a dog gives this book a try, his theory's and methods I feel are spot on.
Kelly & the Keladity Klan

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Offline Jan/Billy

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Re: Good Book!
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2007, 01:32:02 PM »
Not a fan of his at all I'm afraid  :-\  I think there are few , if any, fans of his on this forum  :-\



Offline Helen

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Re: Good Book!
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2007, 01:45:12 PM »
isn't he being sued at the moment?  His use of prong collars and other aversives is completely anti my way of thinking about dog training  :-\

definitely NOT a fan  ph34r
helen & jarvis x


Offline LurcherGirl

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Re: Good Book!
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2007, 02:09:48 PM »
Nope, CM is not my favourite person either... I prefer to train my dogs, rather than bully them...  ;) He generally just forces dogs into submission and shut down (they are so frightened that they just don't react anymore), rather than teach them what they are actually supposed to do instead. I have seen very few happy dogs on his program.

I also can't support anyone that uses prong or electro shock collars.

He does however advocate walking dogs regularly, which is important as "house dogs" are very common in the States...

Sorry, Kelly, I don't mean to be horrible... but he is unfortunately not as good a dog trainer as most people think. Try to turn the volume off when you watch his TV show and just watch the dogs. It then becomes a lot more obvious how depressed and scared most dogs are when and after being trained by him... (which he calls "calm submissive"...).

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Offline KellyS

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Re: Good Book!
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2007, 03:14:26 PM »
Oh dear what a shame to have such a response but I suppose it was to be expected from this forum..... I just thought the book maybe of interest to some..

As far as I am aware he has not be prosecuted for any offense, if it ever happended. ;) I cannot comment on the use of electric shock collars has haven't seen or heard any factual evidence of that.

From what I have seen read and heard IMO he does a fantastic job in rehabilitating and rescuing dogs, lost causes that otherwise would have been PTS. His dog pack consisting of over 35 various breeds of dogs from Rotty's to Pitbulls all look extremely peaceful and happy living together, I'm sorry but they do not look bullied, depressed or down trodden can't understand how that has been interpreted??? His explanations of how dogs react,think and behave just make sense in my opinion when you think about it.

I realise CM may not be to everybodies taste but IMO he is doing a fantastic job in rehabilitaiting dogs and training owners, those of you that haven't heard of him, with an open mind why not read the book, whatch the programme and judge for yourselves. ph34r

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Offline Elmo

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Re: Good Book!
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2007, 03:22:55 PM »
Please dont take this personally Kelly as everyone has there own views on dog training and what works for some may not work for others but this is my take on Cesar Millan :D

Every dog has "dominance" issues and owners being "calm and assertive" cures ALL behaviour problems along with a SHHHHHT and a poke in the neck  ::)
Dogs lying down (or should i say being pushed to the ground) is classes as being calm and submissive.

There was an episode on the other night and he was in the dog park with a Doberman( or doberman x) and it had prong collar on. Its the first time ive noticed one in his programmes and now i know why every time he gives a "little tug" on the collar to " break the concentration" the dog has a much stronger reaction to whenever ive tugged elmo with his normal collar. Not surprising as i would do as im told if i had spikes jabbing my neck too ph34r

Im currently reading the Culture Clash and have the Idiots Guide to Positive Dog Training to start on when ive finished that. I have hoards of Clicker training videos/DVDs and books which i love and find that is an excellent way of trianing :D

Offline Helen

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Re: Good Book!
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2007, 03:51:11 PM »
agree with Elmo...

Everyone's entitled to their views Kelly and I fully respect that, but I'm afraid that I personally am really skeptical about his methods...and it appears others are too....


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/opinion/31derr.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

http://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=nr_news_releases_dog_whisperer


oh and there were 2 lawsuits, the second one was the one I was interested in, in 2006 - a lab retriever that was rushed to the vet's bleeding from his nose and mouth and with bad bruising on his inner thighs (something to do with a treadmill).  This one was silenced with a lot of money  :-\
helen & jarvis x


Offline Jan/Billy

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Re: Good Book!
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2007, 04:49:14 PM »
Oh dear what a shame to have such a response but I suppose it was to be expected from this forum.....  

not sure what you mean there  :huh:

His dog pack consisting of over 35 various breeds of dogs from Rotty's to Pitbulls all look extremely peaceful and happy living together, I'm sorry but they do not look bullied, depressed or down trodden can't understand how that has been interpreted???


I atended a seminar a few months back by a Top american dog trainer ( don't want to name names on this thread  for her sake) . She is absolutely horrified by him and his methods. She is absolutely convinced there is a lot of intimidation etc that goes on behind the scenes between him and his dogs. She said the way his dogs behave ie like statues no matter what goes on around them, is definately not normal happyl dog behaviour and that they are clearly terrified of something. She is an amasing woman & I totally respected her judgement.





Offline PennyB

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Re: Good Book!
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2007, 05:56:10 PM »
Mark (Topbarks) quoted this a while back re Milan

"Here's a few quotes by the experts.

QUOTES FROM EXPERTS:
World-renowned dog trainers, behaviorists and veterinarians had all warned National Geographic that Millan’s methods had the potential for disaster. Below are quotes from noted experts:

“Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”
Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

“Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards.  A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back.  I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him.  To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.”
Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers

"A number of qualified professionals have voiced concern for the welfare of pet dogs that experience the strong corrections administered by Mr. Millan. My concerns are based on his inappropriateness, inaccurate statements, and complete fabrications of explanations for dog behavior. His ideas, especially those about “dominance”, are completely disconnected from the sciences of ethology and animal learning, which are our best hope for understanding and training our dogs and meeting their behavioral needs. Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."
Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO

"Cesar Millan employs outdated methods that are dangerous and inhumane. Using a choke chain and treadmill to treat fear of strangers and dogs is completely inappropriate. Hopefully the National Geographic Channel will listen to the scientific community and discontinue production of The Dog Whisperer."
Vyolet Michaels, CTC (Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Counselor)
Owner of Urban Dawgs, LLC of Red Bank, NJ

"On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog—the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes? The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression. Even used technically correctly as positive punishment for specific behaviors like growling and snarling, aversives do nothing to change the underlying fear or hostility, so the best you can hope for, in the words of famed vet and behaviorist, Ian Dunbar, is "removing the ticker from the time bomb." Thus such methods substantially increase the risk to humans of getting bitten."
Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
Author of the book, "Dogs Bite"

Excerpt of letter from Lisa Laney, Dip. DTBC, CPDT, CBC to National Geographic before airing “The Dog Whisperer”:
“The intended program depicts aversive and abusive training methods - treatment for some serious anxiety and fear based issues - being administered by an individual with no formal education whatsoever in canine behavioral sciences. The "results" that are shown are more than likely not long lasting changes, but the result of learned helplessness, or fatigue, neither of which impact behavior to any significant long term degree - at least not in a good way. For those of us who are pioneering the effort to end the ignorance that drives the cruel treatment administered upon our canine companions, it is disappointing to see that this programming will reach the masses - especially on the NG Channel. The ignorance that this program perpetuates will give equally ignorant people the green light to subject their dogs to abuse. In turn these dogs will react even more defensively, will bite more people - and end up dead.”

Friends of Hailey Park
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Offline KellyS

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Re: Good Book!
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2007, 09:29:32 PM »
Quote
oh and there were 2 lawsuits, the second one was the one I was interested in, in 2006 - a lab retriever that was rushed to the vet's bleeding from his nose and mouth and with bad bruising on his inner thighs (something to do with a treadmill).  This one was silenced with a lot of money 

Was there an actual prosecution? There are such things as accidents ::) I know a horse that fell off a treadmill and broke it's leg, it was a nasty accident, unfortunately things like that do happen...When it happens to somebody in the spotlight all sorts of allegations are alleged.

Sorry but not convinced... I note criticisms typically come from other so called experts  - funny that! Anything to do with 'He has the top-rated program, “Dog Whisperer,” on the National Geographic Channel, a best-selling book and a devoted following, and he has been the subject of several glowing magazine articles. '

CM is not a dog trainer and doesn't claim to be, he rehabilitates dogs and trains owners how to deal with their dogs - those that often forget that dogs are dogs - animals,  not 4 legged furry humans.

At no point in his book does CM advise to use electric collars or to kick or hit your dog. I wouldn't recommend it otherwise - I also didn't see any dogs behaving like statues the other night when they were playing ball with him and playing in the pool? IMO CM has a wonderful gift with dogs, a genuine love of the canine species, has turned many dogs lives around that had long been given up on and his book is well worth a read.

This is my final post on the subject.

Kelly & the Keladity Klan

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Offline Jan/Billy

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Re: Good Book!
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2007, 09:36:44 PM »
CM is not a dog trainer and doesn't claim to be, he rehabilitates dogs and trains owners how to deal with their dogs -


But how can you rehabilitate without training  :huh:


I'd rather put Billy to sleep than use all of his methods, seriously!


ETA - Because Billy is sssoooo sensitive, anything such as Ceasers methods would send him over the edge I think and would destroy him. I would never risk it.



Offline Helen

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Re: Good Book!
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2007, 09:43:04 PM »
I would consider the American Humane Society as somewhat educated on humane training methods...to have them endorse AGAINST someone does, in my view, point to methods that are very much flawed.
helen & jarvis x


Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Good Book!
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2007, 10:02:28 PM »
All good trainers train owners, not dogs, so he is definitely not unique in that regard  :-\

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  You say that you expected the reaction you got, then why are you so upset?  :huh:

If CM motives are so altruistic, then why does he court so much publicity?  The methods on his show are not designed to be copied by inexperienced dog owners - there is even a caveat at the beginning, in order to avoid further law suits  ::)

To me, it seems that his show is merely an hour a week of "look at me!"  My opinion of him is low, not only because he uses methods I don't agree with, but because he refuses to engage in discussion about the merits of his methods with other experts in the field, despite repeated invitations - implying that he knows it all and does not need to adapt his methods as more is learnt about dog behaviour  :-\
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Offline cdpops

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Re: Good Book!
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2007, 10:37:25 PM »
It makes me quite sad to think this man has influenced the way many inexperienced dog owners "manage" dogs with issues. I have watched his show with a mixture of emotions, but mainly anger and horror at his methods. I can not deny they work in the short term, but so do positive methods, but I guess that would not make such good viewing. I have not read the book, but a colleague of mine got it for Christmas, so I will read it when she has finished it!

Offline spanielcrazy

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Re: Good Book!
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2007, 10:50:44 PM »
I note criticisms typically come from other so called experts  - funny that!

The "so called experts" include PhD's in animal behaviour who are working trainers/behaviourists,and veterinarians, and include some pioneers in the field of dog behaviour/learning/training. Without the work of some of these people we would still be in the dark ages of dog training.


CM is not a dog trainer and doesn't claim to be,



Then why on earth does he even have a show?  :huh:


At no point in his book does CM advise to use electric collars or to kick or hit your dog.


Maybe not in his book, but on his show he hit a dog with a tennis racket

There is no question that aversive techniques do work, on some dogs. What he is promoting is not new or radical, it's the same old kind of training that has been going on for eons. Some of what he says is right and makes good sense, but there is quite a bit that is outdated and downright cruel.

If these dogs are being rehabilitated, and this is a last resort for them, then I strongly object to them being trotted out for our "entertainment". And to show these methods to a novice dog owning public, who have no idea about timing or dog body language, is irresponsible at best, and dangerous or damaging to dog and owner.

And we don't get to see the hours and hours of what ends up on the cutting room floor, they pick out the best bits and spoon feed it to us. We never get to see the failures, or hear about them  :-\
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