Author Topic: I went to a really interesting seminar today.  (Read 3744 times)

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Offline Top Barks

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I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« on: September 28, 2008, 09:41:09 PM »
It was the uk registry of canine behaviourists symposium  for me in Coventry today and back again tomorrow for day two.
The speaker is Kelly Schnieder  who has  an Msc in animal behaviour and the topic is constructional aggression treatment.
This has really made me think about the way I view and work with dog aggression.
The thing is her method is so obvious and really makes sense now why didn't i come up with it?
Going back to see the method used on real life cases tomorrow so I'll let you know how it goes.
This could change the way I work with aggressive dogs forever. ;)

Mark

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
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Offline Jan/Billy

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Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2008, 09:42:18 PM »
Sounds interesting Mark. What's her method?



Offline cazza

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Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2008, 09:57:13 PM »
Look forward to hearing more Mark  :D

Offline Top Barks

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Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2008, 10:01:23 PM »
Sounds interesting Mark. What's her method?

All in good time :005: If a dog is dog reactive, in the past we would try to change the emotional response by classical conditioning and pairing the scary dog with a high value reinforcer such as food which takes time by teaching the dog to look at the scary dog then look back at you for a reward.
When a dog is fearful of another dog what do you think the greatest reward would be??
The way Kelly put it I thought was brilliant.
If you and a friend were in a sweet shop and had bought chocolates when all of a sudden a masked raider breaks in to the shop wielding a gun or knife what would you want? Your friend feeding you another chocolate?
The most reinforcing thing in this situation would be distance between you and the mad man.
It's the same for a fearful dog, what he wants the most is for the other dog to go away.
Kelly exposes the dog to what it finds scary and if the dog aggresses the scary person stays right there, but if the dog offers another behaviour other than the aggressive response then the scary person or dog turns and puts distance between the dog and them reinforcing the non aggressive behaviour.
This is a form of negative reinforcement, but done in a way so not to expose the dog to prolonged stress.
Does it make sense?

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline Helen

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Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2008, 10:04:42 PM »
yep it makes complete sense.... it would have to be really carefully done and timing would be everything  ;)

I would say in capable trained hands this method would be fantastic but like anything, in the wrong hands it could backfire badly.
helen & jarvis x


Offline Cob-Web

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Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2008, 10:06:54 PM »
yep it makes complete sense.... it would have to be really carefully done and timing would be everything  ;)

I would say in capable trained hands this method would be fantastic but like anything, in the wrong hands it could backfire badly.

I was thinking exactly the same thing; it makes perfect sense, but I would never have the confidence to try it myself  ph34r
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Offline Top Barks

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Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2008, 10:08:53 PM »
yep it makes complete sense.... it would have to be really carefully done and timing would be everything  ;)

I would say in capable trained hands this method would be fantastic but like anything, in the wrong hands it could backfire badly.
I agree completely with you Helen, but then you wouldn't go to a vet to sort a medical problem without them having some formal qualification or relevant experience to be able to perform the procedure and it should be the same with dog aggression know matter what technique you use.
Many people cock it up using or trying to use more conventional methods already. :005:

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline Top Barks

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Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2008, 10:13:21 PM »
The beauty of CAT is that it is much quicker and can have the effect of the dog who was prieviously dog reactive actually get to really like being round other dogs.
I can't wait to see it in action tomorrow having seen the video clips of before and after today.

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline Jan/Billy

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Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2008, 10:25:50 PM »
I'm on the fence  :lol2:


What happens if the dog doesn't offer a non aggressive behaviour? How long do you subject the dog to the "nasty " thing. eg if Billy really dislikes labs, I subject him to the lab and he goes bollistc lunging growling etc, if he doesn't stop and offer anything other than this what do I do? How long do I keep him there?

Am not saying I disagree ( I don't know either way) am just thinking outloud IYSWIM  :D  Would be very interested to hear how tomorrow goes  :D





Offline KellyS

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Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2008, 09:22:30 AM »
I think it makes sense and could work well in the right hands.
Kelly & the Keladity Klan

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Offline Becky and Wilson

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Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2008, 11:55:39 AM »
Three of the trainers from my club have gone on this course too!  Sounds very interesting, looking forward to hearing about how today went!
Becky - Owned by Wilson(Great Dane), Paisley, Isla, Merfyn (Cockers) the 3 cats and the two rabbits!

Offline Hurtwood Dogs

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Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2008, 12:35:32 PM »
Sounds very sensible to me.. be interested to hear how it goes (having a slightly unpredictable lady in my care!)

It does sound a little along the same lines of something that a trainer tried with Norms when she had a spate of guarding me from other dogs too much - I thought it was fear but we'd noticed she wasn't doing to my OH, mainly me. How it worked was that I had another trainer standing near me and another dog was walked passed us. If she kicked off, I quietly passed the lead to the other trainer and walked away without looking at Norms - the association being if she was seeing guarding me as a way of keeping me we needed to change that so if she started to guard me, she lost me. If she sat quietly, she kept me. It worked very quickly on her - the second she started barking or lunging I walked away and as soon I did this, she stopped barking instantly, forgot about the other dog and looked for me. It didn't take long for her to work out that keeping quiet kept me with her and she got praised etc it's has had a lot of long term benefit to.

Keep us posted!

Hannah xx


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Offline hollyd443

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Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2008, 01:07:20 PM »
I'd love to be able to try this with my nervous aggressive collie. She is fine with her pack (the cockers, Lab X & Papillon), but is very wary of dogs she meets out and about and has to be put on a lead if we see one approaching. Because she gets nasty, the scary dog moves away from her - therefore getting what she wants.

Offline Cob-Web

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Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2008, 01:09:07 PM »
I'd love to be able to try this with my nervous aggressive collie. She is fine with her pack (the cockers, Lab X & Papillon), but is very wary of dogs she meets out and about and has to be put on a lead if we see one approaching. Because she gets nasty, the scary dog moves away from her - therefore getting what she wants.

Have you tried leaving her off lead? Molo gets grumpy with dogs that approach him when he is on lead; but if I leave him off, then he just ignores them and walks away  ;)
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Offline hollyd443

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Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2008, 01:45:57 PM »
I'd love to be able to try this with my nervous aggressive collie. She is fine with her pack (the cockers, Lab X & Papillon), but is very wary of dogs she meets out and about and has to be put on a lead if we see one approaching. Because she gets nasty, the scary dog moves away from her - therefore getting what she wants.

Have you tried leaving her off lead? Molo gets grumpy with dogs that approach him when he is on lead; but if I leave him off, then he just ignores them and walks away  ;)

We can leave her off lead if its a slow steady dog that we know as we can send her round it, however if we don't know the dog or its a bouncy playful dog then no, we can't as its too dangerous as she is nasty and the oncoming dog has to defend itself equalling in a fight. Muzzles aren't good either as we've not found one yet that she can't get off in a matter of seconds! She's 8 years old now, and she's been like it since a pup. She's okay if its a dog her pup that we can take time to introduce to her to, but not dogs she briefly meets on walks.