Author Topic: I went to a really interesting seminar today.  (Read 3746 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cob-Web

  • Inactive
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10276
  • Gender: Female
  • To err is human, to forgive, canine
    • Walking on Wight Blog
Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2008, 06:52:09 PM »
I'm afraid I'm not seeing what is "negative reinforcing" or even negative about the principle that Mark posted  :huh:

From the dogs perspective, the aversive (the thing they don't like, which in this case, is the other dog) goes away when the dog performs the desired behaviour (remaining calm). The calm behaviour is reinforced by removing an aversive, hence negative reinforcement  ;)

This a good website for explaining the principles of Operant and Classic conditioning:
http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/
Enrich your life with an Oldie!
Oldies Club


Offline spanielcrazy

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4446
Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2008, 07:10:08 PM »
I get those terms confused  ph34r I tend to think of the word "negative" as meaning "bad" or not wanted, when in dog training lingo thats not necessarily what it means
The madhouse: Michelle, Joy, Jordie, Gizmo, Bracken, Jewel

"My darlings,I love you more than life itself, but you're all ****ing mad!"  Ozzy Osbourne


Offline emms

  • Site Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 411
  • Gender: Female
Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2008, 07:41:53 PM »
Negative reinforcement can be a bad thing starting or a bad thing ending.

Offline Top Barks

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5234
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.topbarks.co.uk
Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2008, 09:23:06 PM »
Negative reinforcement takes away something the dog finds unpleasant which in the Case of CAT is something it finds scary such as the presence of another dog or human.
The down side to negative reinforcement is that you have to introduce this unpleasant stimulus in the first place.
The idea of CAT was to introduce the unpleasant stimulus(ie scary dog or person at a distance and withdraw at the slightest signs of discomfort which may have been only a tightening of the mouth or hardening of the eyes.
The idea so i believed was not to cross the dogs aggression threshold.
I went to the demo day today and for me the jury is out on whether I will use this now.
I'll let you know more of what happened when I get chance tomorrow.
Mark

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline sooze

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2008, 10:12:11 PM »
Must be like being put into a roomful of, say, spiders (if you were really scared of spiders) and then being expected to react in a rational way - I have to say that most dogs' problems stem from something far more basic and expecting them to react in a way that can be rationalised so easily is a bit hopeful - not to say that I hope you have some success but to be honest it all seems a bit too humanised to actually translate to animal behaviour, which is a little bit more, not simplified, but different, and I can't help feeling that this approach is too much like human psychology and not dog behaviour which is quite complicated when in contrast because we don't factor in all their olfactory, facial and 'pack' behaviours ....  They aren't like us and, much as we would like it, we can't plaster our human emotions onto their little features, so as much as we try to emote for them, we don't even come close a lot of the time ...

It will be interesting to see how this comes along - I know that dogs respond to positive reinforcement for commands simply because they want to please us, but whether their fears can be overcome without any help is moot - do keep posting and let us know how the trial goes and what the successes and failures are - I am sure that we can all learn from it whatever the outcome ....

Offline Hurtwood Dogs

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6304
  • Gender: Female
  • Little Lionheart
Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2008, 09:56:09 AM »
I think the other factor is the dog's character itself.

IMO, some dogs will respond well to something like this and others not. I have to train my two in totally different ways and they seem to 'get' different approaches. If I'm enthusiastic, silly and over the top with my cocker it works... if I do that to my Weim she huffs at me and turns her back on me (She does the same to other trainers/vets etc). If I talk quietly to my Weim and 'ask' her nicely to do things I get her attention instantly and pin sharp reactions... if I do that to my cocker he doesn't even know I'm there.

My cocker freaks out totally with any kind of negativity happening to him - he hurt himself jumping into the car the other day and he was terrified of the bit he had jumped into and bashed himself on for days - the bigger picture of cause and effect thing really isn't there with him, but stuff like that isn't a problem for my Weim - if she hurts herself she seems to know why it happened and not be scared of whatever hurt her after. If my cocker was aggressive to other dogs, I couldn't put him in the situation Mark describes on the first page as I'm pretty sure it would freak him out and he'd not actually learn from it - but I KNOW my Weim would deal with it and learn from it. My cocker loves clicker training, my Weim shows total disdain for it but being my 'partner' works for her i.e. she just wants eye contact and a respectful 'good girl yes that's it'

I think different characters can handle and benefit from different methods of training - I guess determining what's suitable is the tough part?

Hannah x

Hannah, Dave & Normy xx

Trev 2001-07 soul dog, always in my heart and dreams x

Offline LurcherGirl

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1744
  • Gender: Female
    • Wagging Tails Dog Training
Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2008, 10:11:12 AM »
Must be like being put into a roomful of, say, spiders (if you were really scared of spiders) and then being expected to react in a rational way
What you are describing is flooding... overwhelming someone/dog with what they are frightened of... which in most cases results in shut down! Not what you want. And not what this method does and should do! If it floods the dog, then it is done wrongly!

CAT is not used to flood a dog,  you don't go right up to the aggressive dog and make it react! You do it at a distance so the dog is still very able to behave correctly!

- I have to say that most dogs' problems stem from something far more basic and expecting them to react in a way that can be rationalised so easily is a bit hopeful - not to say that I hope you have some success but to be honest it all seems a bit too humanised to actually translate to animal behaviour, which is a little bit more, not simplified, but different, and I can't help feeling that this approach is too much like human psychology and not dog behaviour which is quite complicated when in contrast because we don't factor in all their olfactory, facial and 'pack' behaviours ....  They aren't like us and, much as we would like it, we can't plaster our human emotions onto their little features, so as much as we try to emote for them, we don't even come close a lot of the time ...
Dogs, humans, any animal learns the same way... through consequences, which can be good or bad! And yes, canine psychology is very much like human psychology! The more I learn about it and the more I discuss issues with teacher and psychologists, the more I find they are both very similar indeed! We all learn the same way and our reactions are very often very similar, just expressed species specific!
It is perfectly normal for both dog and human to try to avoid something that we don't like. If we find that a certain behaviour gets us a certain consequence we want, we do it more and more to get that consequence. Example: if you find that stomping your foot makes a spider run away every time, then that is what you are going to do when faced with a spider that scares you! That is negative reinforcement... stomping makes the uncomfortable situation go away and is therefore reinforcing (it is called "negative" because something is taken away, not because it is bad! As opposed to "positive" where something is added to reinforce behaviour!) and you will therefore be more likely to stomp your foot as soon as you see a scary spider.
It's the same with dogs in this principle... the dog learns that the scary dog goes away if they behave in a certain way, in this case when looking away, turning away, stop barking etc. The dog going away is therefore reinforcing the wanted behaviour and the dog will be more likely to do it again when he is faced with another dog that scares him.

I know that dogs respond to positive reinforcement for commands simply because they want to please us
I don't agree with that... dogs' behaviour, just like humans' behaviour always has a purpose, and if it is just to make themselves feel good! Yes, some dogs are more interested in co-operating with humans, but I don't think there are many dogs that do things just to please us... an illusion that I have given up a long time ago.  ;)

Vera
Vera Marney
BSc (Hons) Canine Behaviour and Training, APDT UK
www.wtdt.co.uk and www.wtdt-eastanglia.co.uk

Offline LurcherGirl

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1744
  • Gender: Female
    • Wagging Tails Dog Training
Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2008, 10:13:26 AM »
I think different characters can handle and benefit from different methods of training - I guess determining what's suitable is the tough part?
Very true, and that's why it is so important that a good behaviourist has many strings to their bow and can use whatever method that works best for a dog, as long as it is human of course and does not have any bad side effects!

Vera
Vera Marney
BSc (Hons) Canine Behaviour and Training, APDT UK
www.wtdt.co.uk and www.wtdt-eastanglia.co.uk

Offline Top Barks

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5234
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.topbarks.co.uk
Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2008, 11:16:25 AM »
Thanks Vera for saving me a lot of typing. :D
I was not impressed with the demo day however.

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline KellyS

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1993
  • Gender: Female
Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2008, 12:01:34 PM »
Whats made you change your mind Mark? I have found everybody views and thoughts really interesting :shades:
Kelly & the Keladity Klan

Visit our website
www.keladitycockers.co.uk
Dogs laugh but they laugh with their tails! - Max Eastman

Offline Top Barks

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5234
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.topbarks.co.uk
Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2008, 12:25:16 PM »
Whats made you change your mind Mark? I have found everybody views and thoughts really interesting :shades:

Not sure If I have changed my mind Kelly, just don't think the demo day went too well, the whole idea was to work the dog at a level of stress it could cope with and in one case that is not what I saw.
To make matters worse it was a spaniel, and I ended up walking out as i couldn't watch.
Some of the senior Ttouch people said it made them want to cry.  :'(
I just think it was set up very badly and to me it highlighted everything that could go wrong and that anybody using this method would have to be soo careful.
I need to see more before passing my final judgement on this and there is a DVD which I want to get hold of.

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline LurcherGirl

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1744
  • Gender: Female
    • Wagging Tails Dog Training
Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2008, 12:36:00 PM »
I have decided to use this method on one of my clients... a dog that reacts on sight of other dogs! We have tried all other methods I can think of (positive reinforcement ones) and it doesn't work in the long term. I feel that CAT might work in his case.

But as mentioned, it has to be done very, very carefully indeed! And I have located a huge field where we should be able to find a distance we can work at... though we might have to supply the aggressive dog with binoculars so he can actually see the stooge dog...  :005:

It has to be done very carefully. It's a shame, Mark, that this could not be demonstrated properly yesterday! Did they not have enough space available; or what do you think was the problem?

Vera
Vera Marney
BSc (Hons) Canine Behaviour and Training, APDT UK
www.wtdt.co.uk and www.wtdt-eastanglia.co.uk

Offline Top Barks

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5234
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.topbarks.co.uk
Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2008, 12:42:57 PM »
Let me know how you go Vera, there were several other APDT people who have used it there with success, so i'd be interested in your results.
Just don't think it worked in an artificial situation.
I left on Sunday all upbeat about it but the method she described on Sunday was not what I saw on Sunday at least for one dog and I just thought what they did was wrong.
kelly thought it had been promising with the spaniel which really was reacting to it's environment more than the stooge person coming towards it anyway.
The next dog in was a rottie, and this appeared to go better but the handler seemed to be cuing the dog and the stooge dog used gave great calming signals which is what seemed to be relaxing the rottie

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline Top Barks

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5234
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.topbarks.co.uk
Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2008, 07:11:23 PM »
I have decided to use this method on one of my clients... a dog that reacts on sight of other dogs! We have tried all other methods I can think of (positive reinforcement ones) and it doesn't work in the long term. I feel that CAT might work in his case.

But as mentioned, it has to be done very, very carefully indeed! And I have located a huge field where we should be able to find a distance we can work at... though we might have to supply the aggressive dog with binoculars so he can actually see the stooge dog...  :005:

It has to be done very carefully. It's a shame, Mark, that this could not be demonstrated properly yesterday! Did they not have enough space available; or what do you think was the problem?

Vera
First dog  was a springer spaniel supposedly aggressive to people in a kennel.
 situation.
He was very upset at the situation he found himself in, reactive to the whole environment rather than AL who was the stooge person.
This dog was really distressed and I couldn't watch :'(
What happened to keeping it below threshold??
Kelly also said she worked dogs on harness's well there were no harness's in sight.
The second dog seemed to shut down and the response to that was to move the dog around.
The rottie seemed to relax at calming signals given by the spinone and only became reactive as the stooge walked away.
I also think the rottie had been taught to check in and was being cued unintentionally by its owner to do so.
I didn't see any operant conditioning going on.
The stooge dog then started growling at the rottie so that was that.
This had taken since 9:30 and by 3 pm I had had enough.
Neither dog had made in my eyes significant progress
It just didn't blow me away the way I was expecting.

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline KellyS

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1993
  • Gender: Female
Re: I went to a really interesting seminar today.
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2008, 10:03:06 PM »
Thats a shame as you sounded really excited about it. Did Kelly think it went well?
Kelly & the Keladity Klan

Visit our website
www.keladitycockers.co.uk
Dogs laugh but they laugh with their tails! - Max Eastman