I went to a really interesting seminar today.

[JoC]

I would doubt it's usefulness in real life as well. Are you supposed to tell an owner to stay there while your dog makes scary faces at theirs until it stops?  I suppose you could always threaten to drop the lead if they didn't 

That demonstration sounds really uncomfortable to watch. I remember watching a very upsetting demonstration at a seminar a few years ago. I felt the dog was pushed into reacting and then the owner belittled for it. It doesn't sound as bad as yours though.

Wasn't there a Q&A session? How did that go?

[Coco]

Must be like being put into a roomful of, say, spiders (if you were really scared of spiders) and then being expected to react in a rational way

Knowing absolutly nothing about behaviour training methods (touch wood we have a fairly steady ride with ours) the above idea interests me.
If someone stood in front of me with a large spider I want to run, If I couldn't i'd want to push them away, shout at them, anything to get rid. If they said they'd leave as soon as I said 'pretty please with a cherry on top' i'd do it to get rid of them but it wouldn't stop me being scared of the spider each time it happened. I know that's humanising again but obviously that's the way I understand it 

Sooo, is there not a way to stop the fear and therefore the reaction? It seems like if it worked it'd make for a much 'easier' dog but one that'd still be fearful in itself. Is the aim then to just stop the agressive behaviour for the benefit of the owner or is the idea that the dog will eventually see there is not such a threat and will eventually relax around other dogs?

Sorry if i'm being thick and not grasping it, it's just quite interesting and i'd never thought of it. I.e is behaviour therapy often for the benefit of the owner or the dog?

(also, I'm not saying it's a terrible thing, I can understand why even if it is just for the owner it is still beneficial for the fact that if the owner can't control the dog it could become unwanted)

[spanielcrazy]

I'll try to explain it, using your spider analogy, as best as my own understanding of it is (which may be all wrong!  )

First of all, bear in mind that this is done very gradually, over a period of weeks, months, however long it takes. It's not going to happen in one or two sessions.

Let's imagine that you are the dog, and I as the trainer take you to a place where you can see the scary spider, but it is at enough distance away that you are not reacting with more than alertness yet, you are aware that it is there but not quite ready to run screaming yet.  (Preferably there is a fence or some sort of safe feeling barrier between you and the spider)

(Possible drawback: requires a lot of space as every dogs "panic area" is different; also requires the trainer and/or owner to have excellent skills at "reading" dogs, signals of discomfort may be as subtle as a tightening of the mouth or a "hardened" expression in the eyes)

I (trainer) toss you (the dog) a high value reward, (maybe chocolate) since you maintained your composure, and we retreat.

In the next session, we decrease the distance to the spider based on your body language. (Again, exquisite skills in reading dogs required, as we will be moving toward that line between bearable, mild stress and total panic or aggression) We progress to a point where the spider tosses you chocolate  (or the handler of the stooge dog, or the "scary stranger" tosses the reward)

Over time, we move closer and closer to the spider until it is just on the opposite side of the fence from you. The spider has showered you with enough chocolate that you remain interested (your fear may still be there but hopefully lessened), so now we progress to intermittant rewards to maintain your interest. Eventually we hope to remove the fence between you and the spider.

The ideal goal would be to have the spider pet you and have you enjoy it. However, depending on you we are willing to settle for having a civilized encounter with the spider ( especially in the case of aggression we are looking for a civilized encounter)

On the other hand, the term "flooding" would be correct in putting you in a room full of spiders in the hope that you would become "used to" them, and conquer your fear. What usually happens in flooding however, is that the dog shuts down and can suffer from something like psychosis from it 

[Coco]

Got it  Excellent explanation! I see the main distinction is between flooding and a controled level of exposure. 
I can see how/why that'd work in the right hands which is obviously the key. 
Though a spider big enough to toss me chocolate    

[Hurtwood Dogs]

It's so complicated isn't it.. At first I thought that a dog that is aggressive through fear may struggle to benefit from something like this but a dog that was aggressive through guarding might be able to learn from it - but I guess knowing why they are guarding in the first place can be difficult. With the problems I've had with Norms in the last year, I know that certain things calm her and one of them is being able to watch the situation for a while. For example, if we go on a COL meet - she will kick off and bark and lunge when we get out of the car as she sees so many other dogs - give her five mins of being asked to sit quietly and watch them, I can let her off and she's fine. Same thing happens at training classes yet if a new dog comes into the class late she will kick off again until she's been able to watch the dog for a while then she's fine and same thing happens if we meet another dog whilst walking on the lead  - is this fear or guarding?

Certainly, when a trainer tried the 'if you kick off, you loose your owner' method, that worked very quickly - suggesting to me that she's guarding rather than fearful - but then why would she calm down when she's had a few minutes of being exposed to the situations that trigger her? The more she is exposed to these situations then the time it takes her to relax is definitely reducing as the months pass and the level she will react to initially is also less (thank doG!).

Hannah xx

[Top Barks]

Wasn't there a Q&A session? How did that go?

Yes there was Jo, but I couldn't hang around.