Trouble at `t mill

[J]

 

I really though we'd bossed this but.

I have read loads of posts relating to our problem but everyone seems to have similar yet very different problems so, as with every other post I have been through, please bear with me and any advice would be more than welcome.Wit`s end springs to mind!

Bayliss is now 3 (neutered) and full working strain
Desmo, nearly 1, (entire) and again, full worker.

We brought desmo home at 9 weeks old and had a few issues with Bayliss but for obvious reasons expected that. Pup was and still is 100% submissive to bayliss all the time yet, Bayliss is still attacking him.

When pup got to 6 months old( as many of you know) the attacks got that bad that after taking advice from many of you and our vet, we had bayliss `done`. This helped for a while then slowly the playing got rougher and the full on attacks started again.
Bayliss seems to have a split personality,,most of the time he is fantastic, then he sets to playing and the red mist descends and off he goes. Nothing will stop him until he has had enough. This is now starting with other dogs on walks. He`ll play nicely then from out of nowhere, he goes mental. No warning, no grumbling, no growling, no teeth shown, not all lot of chance for me to try and calm the situation down and take his mind away from scrapping. Pup (and other dogs) thus far haven't been injured although pup does show many battle scars on his face.
I have changed his diet on someone`s advice which again, seemed to help for a month but back to square one!

Does pup need neutering to help with the quandary? Do I muzzle Bayliss? Do I change a diet again?
Any help would be great

[fifer]

Just out of interest has Bayliss had a vet check and a full blood panel done?

[J]

No,, please enlighten me?

[sophiew]

I'm sorry you're having problems, it's horrible to have dogs fighting in the same household.

I think the vet check / blood tests would be to rule out any medical reason that might be causing his change in behaviour and aggression. It's common to rule medical stuff out before treating the behaviour.

You say he gives no warning - does the play escalate to a point that he can't cope with it i.e can he withstand low levels of play and be called away, or does all play always end in the 'red mist'?

The neutering question is a tricky one as it's irreversable, I would think about seeing a good behaviourist before taking that sort of action.

Sorry, not much help!

Sophie
x

[J]

Hi Sophie

The red mist doesn't come down everytime,, generally if he is out,, he seems to get really frustrated if he can't catch Desmo. They'll run together and as pup is generally in front of bayliss and he'll chase after him trying to bite him playfully,, if he catches him, he goes off on one!

At work, they'll run around the warehouse playing quite vocally almost play biting  and again, bayliss gets frustrated in not being able to catch pup but when he does,, fur and feather fly.

It happened in the van once but that may have been over a toy,,
It happens in the house
in the garden
our on walks.
I`m at the stage I'm reluctant to have any toys in the house in case that is a trigger,, I going to look for a soft muzzle at the weekend and head for the vets to seek more info/advice.

My thought process with the neutering was that desmo may now be of the age where bayliss might be aggrevated by any scents desmo is giving off as a fully grown

[Harveypops]

Oh no!   No advice, for obvious reasons- I have no 2nd dog, but I hope you find a solution!

[J]

Cheers honey

Hope the boys are OK

[clairep4]

If toys can or have been a trigger in the past then I would remove them all, we've done this in our house as they were a trigger for Zorro to have a pop at Bella.

It's very hard to say without seeing him in action. I'd definitely get a full health check and then get a good behaviourist in to have a look at him, it could be that he gets over-stimulated by the play which then causes him to escalate as he cannot cope as he's just overloaded. Have you tried letting him play very briefly and then distracting him or is that not possible?

[Hurtwood Dogs]

Really feel for you and tbh a good behaviourist + vet test is probably the way to go if this continues but based on dogs displaying habitual behaviour and the fact that the less they do something the less likely they will be to do it, if it was me I'd concentrate on not having any incidents for a while to see if keeping Bayliss 'happy' may help him relax more consistently:

- Remove ALL potential triggers at home
- Consider completely avoiding situations where it happens for a while for example; think about keeping them on lead alternately on walks or walking separately for a while.

Something else that might give you a bit of hope! Dave had always been an obsessive humper and a little over exuberant in play, I had him neutered when he was 2 years and I think it took about nine months for him to settle down after that - he did have a period where he was more aggressive also for a while so Bayliss may still be going through the process of adjusting to it all.

[Helen]

all good advice and I really really hope you find the solution to the problem 

One thing I will say is that sometimes dogs just don't get on and will never get on and this is out of the owners control - I really hope this doesn't happen but it is a possibility that you have to consider.

Also with Desmo becoming an adult and of equal strength he will start to fight back as an equal and it could get nasty.

[spanielcrazy]

You may want to try him on the herb Valerian, to help take the edge off. You could also try Bach flower essences, I'd try a mix of Holly and Vine. They can be very helpful with behavioural issues

[fifer]

No,, please enlighten me?

Sometimes this type of behaviour has a medical cause.  The fact that it eased off then restarted would make me wonder.

Certainly a vet check should always be carried out first, before recourse to a behaviourist, to rule out any underlying medical problem.

[pete19873.5efi]

Your youngster is doing quite well if he can stand that much abuse form the older dog.
If the older has no medical problems I would point the finger to a dominance issue, having his bits off will help long term but it won’t overrule thousands of years of dog pack behaviour set in his mind.

I have seen before that when this situation gets this bad that you the master has to go in and sort it out with quite harsh treatment of the aggressor, not easy to do but can solve the problem. I used to own retrievers; my boy was quite an aggressive dog and would stand up to most others so you had to be a little careful with him. I looked after my brothers 2 very large Alsatians for a while and had some real issues as my boy thought he had lost his pack placing
Quite amazing to watch a soft mouthed working dog take on a large dog like that, after I waded in a couple of times with more aggression than him he started to behave, life was never perfect until they went home though.

Its often said that boys fight with lots of noise but no real injury, bitches will fight to the death. If your pup is getting injured it may be worth considering moving him to a home where he will be safer. Hard decision but one which is best for the dog.

[EmmaA]

We only ever have handbags at dawn here  I just wanted to say I am sorry to hear that it has got this bad with Bayliss and Desmo  I would definitely get Bayliss checked over by the vet. If his bloods come back clear then I would bring ina  behaviourist. Hopefully you will be able to make some progress because if not I know how hard it would be but I think you would have to consider rehoming one of the boys  I really really hope it doesn't come to that.

[Helen]

Your youngster is doing quite well if he can stand that much abuse form the older dog.
If the older has no medical problems I would point the finger to a dominance issue, having his bits off will help long term but it won’t overrule thousands of years of dog pack behaviour set in his mind.

I have seen before that when this situation gets this bad that you the master has to go in and sort it out with quite harsh treatment of the aggressor, not easy to do but can solve the problem. I used to own retrievers; my boy was quite an aggressive dog and would stand up to most others so you had to be a little careful with him. I looked after my brothers 2 very large Alsatians for a while and had some real issues as my boy thought he had lost his pack placing
Quite amazing to watch a soft mouthed working dog take on a large dog like that, after I waded in a couple of times with more aggression than him he started to behave, life was never perfect until they went home though.

Its often said that boys fight with lots of noise but no real injury, bitches will fight to the death. If your pup is getting injured it may be worth considering moving him to a home where he will be safer. Hard decision but one which is best for the dog.

and here we disagree.

COL does not advocate the use of physical violence or aversives, nor do we hold any credence with outdated pack theories.  You are not a dog and your dogs know that - physical aggression may temporarily seem to quell the problem but you are potentially causing more issues with the dogs and not resolving anything.

We don't recommend these methods, and will remove posts promoting them.