Author Topic: What's your views on harnesses?  (Read 3726 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Top Barks

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5234
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.topbarks.co.uk
Re: What's your views on harnesses?
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2010, 07:28:45 PM »
I have pretty much all of the harness' mentioned above including the mekuti which works well and the easy walk which i also use as well as the halti.
I still do use two points of connection if I am going somewhere new and exciting however I do find using two points of connection with some clients takes some practice!
A lot of folks just can't seem to coordinate so with anything what works for one sometimes doesn't work for another.

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline Emma xx

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3114
  • Gender: Female
  • Meg
Re: What's your views on harnesses?
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2010, 07:34:57 PM »
Alfie is turning into a bit of a puller. I have tried the standing still technique and this doesnt work and also the changing direction technique. This helped a bit but within 5 mins he's doing it again no matter how many times i repeat it. Walking with a treat in my hand and treating him when the lead loosens works, but the moment he see's i no longer have a treat he just tanks off again ::) and i cant really rely on having a treat in my pocket everywhere i go :-\. Is it adivsed for 8 month old pups to wear these harnesses or should i perservere and hope he grows up a bit ph34r? Im just scared he's going to damage his little neck.

Thanks xx
Emma, with Meg (11) and Alfie (3)



Watch Alfie's first year!
http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?p=c5e5e2eace5d415d7d989a&skin_id=7

Offline ggilly

  • Site Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 312
  • Gender: Female
Re: What's your views on harnesses?
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2010, 08:34:15 PM »
We used a Halti harness with a double ended lead for Lizzy for a few months because we failed to stop her pulling using any of the other methods. It was an instant success  :D couldn't believe how much difference it made  :005: :005: we progressed to just using the lead on the chest ring with no bother.

Once we had her walking really nicely with no pulling at all we went back to collar and lead to check how she was doing and found that she was really good. So much so that we now only use the harness very occassionally if she shows signs of forgetting that she's supposed to walk to heel or there are going to be lots of distractions. :luv: :luv:
Team Shenjela - Jane, Shel, Lizzy, Neala and Duffy

Offline praia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 407
Re: What's your views on harnesses?
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2010, 02:29:17 AM »
I'll probably get attacked for saying this, but I don't like them.  Most of the time they only mask unresolved training issues.  Dog harnesses came about, because of activities that required pulling (tracking, sledding, cart dogs).  It distributes the weight to the strongest parts of the dog so if you think about it, don't harnesses only encourage pulling?  Yes, it prevents damage to a dog's neck, but you're not exactly training the dog how to walk properly.  It's my personal belief that a dog isn't properly leash trained if it always has to be walked on a harness or any other kind of "training" gimmick like a head halter.  I consider my dogs leash trained only once I can walk them on just a leash and collar with absolutely no tension on the lead.

I tried a harness for a short while with my spaniel until I got tired of the constant matting on his chest and arm pits and until I realized that he wasn't exactly learning how to walk properly, because the harness was only restraining him, not training him.  I suppose some people are fine with not actually addressing the source of why the dog is pulling while on a leashed walk, but I find that having a well-trained dog that can walk nicely on just a leash and collar is extremely rewarding and a great source of pride for me. 

Offline AnnieG

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 988
  • Gender: Female
Re: What's your views on harnesses?
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2010, 09:35:27 AM »
I am a complete convert to the Mekuti harness.  It saved my sanity with our lovable but exuberantly uncontrollable new rescue dog. Gillon is a working cocker who had probably been given up after an extended period in his old home without any exercise. When he arrived on the open fells of Cumbria, he couldn't believe his luck. The result was chaos! He tried to pack every experience he had ever missed into a single walk.  My arm was beginning to stretch further than Alice in Wonderland's. I can't believe what difference the harness made in only a week. We got his lead walking under control in a single day. He now walks to heel beautifully, even with only one end of the lead attached. Because he is now a lot calmer, he has also begun to listen. As a result, his off-lead work has improved a thousand-fold. The photo shows one of Gill obeying a command that was unthinkable only two weeks ago - 'Leave' on a much-loved tennis ball - alongside his new sister, Cassie. Life is a great deal more enjoyable for all of us.




Offline clairep4

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2922
  • Gender: Female
  • The Two Muppeteers!
    • Chow Bella Pet Bowls
Re: What's your views on harnesses?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2010, 09:53:16 AM »
I'll probably get attacked for saying this, but I don't like them.  Most of the time they only mask unresolved training issues.  Dog harnesses came about, because of activities that required pulling (tracking, sledding, cart dogs).  It distributes the weight to the strongest parts of the dog so if you think about it, don't harnesses only encourage pulling?  Yes, it prevents damage to a dog's neck, but you're not exactly training the dog how to walk properly.  It's my personal belief that a dog isn't properly leash trained if it always has to be walked on a harness or any other kind of "training" gimmick like a head halter.  I consider my dogs leash trained only once I can walk them on just a leash and collar with absolutely no tension on the lead.

I tried a harness for a short while with my spaniel until I got tired of the constant matting on his chest and arm pits and until I realized that he wasn't exactly learning how to walk properly, because the harness was only restraining him, not training him.  I suppose some people are fine with not actually addressing the source of why the dog is pulling while on a leashed walk, but I find that having a well-trained dog that can walk nicely on just a leash and collar is extremely rewarding and a great source of pride for me. 

Harnesses that are designed to encourage a dog to pull have only a single point of contact far down the back (the further back it is, the more likely they are to pull).  They work by deliberately triggering the opposition reflex so that the dog pulls - very different to having a dog in a harness with a point of contact on the chest and another between the shoulder blades.

Personally I find it just as rewarding having a dog walk beautifully to heel in a harness as I would a dog in a collar  :D
Claire, Bella & Zorro - the two muppeteers!
Tellington TTouch Practitioner P1
www.tellingtontouch.org.uk

Offline LindyLou

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 954
  • Gender: Female
Re: What's your views on harnesses?
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2010, 09:58:18 AM »
Well thank you all for the feedback.

There are so many types of harness out there that I had become a bit boggle eyed!  ::)

It seems that overall you have had successes with one or other type. Just need to decide which one to go for!

  Most of the time they only mask unresolved training issues. 

It's my personal belief that a dog isn't properly leash trained if it always has to be walked on a harness or any other kind of "training" gimmick like a head halter.  I consider my dogs leash trained only once I can walk them on just a leash and collar with absolutely no tension on the lead.

I suppose some people are fine with not actually addressing the source of why the dog is pulling while on a leashed walk, but I find that having a well-trained dog that can walk nicely on just a leash and collar is extremely rewarding and a great source of pride for me. 


The reason I posted originally, is because I recognise Baxter is not properly leash trained, and no, I am not fine with it!

I would also find it very rewarding to have him trot sedately at my side, however,having tried many methods, I am wanting to cover all options to try to achieve more improvement.

There are thousands of harnesses sold to owners who may be struggling with loose lead walking and it appears they have success with them.

Personally speaking, if Mark at Top Barks has used them, I wouldn't imagine he was trying to mask "unresolved training issues" merely using available tools to assist in resolving those problems?
Linda & Baxter

Offline PennyB

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13830
Re: What's your views on harnesses?
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2010, 11:33:10 AM »
Its often best if you use a harness combined with sometimes using a collar and lead

Thinking is when you have the time to train you use the collar and lead but when you're in a rush or haven't time to train for pulling use a harness - and don't half-heartedly try to train them on the way to a walk and let them fail - if you're off to the park their head is all over the place so its often best to get that out the way (use the harness then) then may be do a bit of lead training when they're settled a bit and if you have the time.

By allowing him to pull it sets them up to fail so they never learn how not to pull ;)
Friends of Hailey Park
Four Paws Animal Rescue (South Wales)

Cockers are just hooligans in cute clothing!

Offline LindyLou

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 954
  • Gender: Female
Re: What's your views on harnesses?
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2010, 11:38:35 AM »
OK, been looking at the Easy Walk harness, but there are 2 types:

First clips between the shoulders:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Medium-Easy-Walk-Dog-Training-Harness-Walking-Pets-Dogs-/290459240745?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Dogs&hash=item43a0b84929

And the second on the chest:

http://www.friendsoffido.co.uk/easy-walk-harness-c12.html

Is one better than the other?
Linda & Baxter

Offline cfordham2710

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 807
  • Gender: Female
Re: What's your views on harnesses?
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2010, 12:05:54 PM »

Yes, Skye was always a puller but now a harness is a must since she slipped her disc.  We can't use the collar as thats where the offending disc is.  The harness does stop her pulling and wheezing and gasping loudly!!

Offline Top Barks

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5234
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.topbarks.co.uk
Re: What's your views on harnesses?
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2010, 03:26:40 PM »
Ideally we would want our dogs to walk with a loose lead without harnesses and with training you can get there, but there are always still for me situations where i find harnesses invaluable.
Going into a new situation, where my dogs are likely to be stimulated or somewhere i have to concentrate on other stuff rather than my dogs.
I wouldn't dream of walking my dogs on flat collars for any distance even though i can have them next to me with slack leads if i wish.

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline SkyeSue

  • Inactive
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5139
  • Gender: Female
Re: What's your views on harnesses?
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2010, 04:31:09 PM »
I totally agree with Mark.
As I said in a previous post, I found the halti harness really good for Chloe in circumstances where it was vital that she didn't pull all over the place...ie in the village. The only time it didn't work for her, was in her highest distraction environments, in other words, around sheep. That is a training issue and something I am working on. I chose to stop using the halti harness on normal, familiar walks and in the village, because she has learnt to walk nicely on a normal collar or harness and lead now, but if I were taking her to a new, busy place, I wouldn't hesitate to use it again.


Sue and Chloe, happy girls on the Isle of Skye

Offline praia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 407
Re: What's your views on harnesses?
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2010, 08:20:27 AM »
I don't know Mark or Top Barks so what I wrote is not at all directed at him, but you must admit that there are plenty of people out there that do use such devices as crutches more than as training aids.  Ideally, harnesses that clip to the front or other items like head halters should only be used to teach a dog proper behavior so you can move on to pleasant and controlled leashed walks, but usually the case is people relying on harnesses to prevent their arms getting ripped out their sockets or their dog's necks getting injured, because they haven't found a training method that works for their dog.   Usually once the harness is off, the dog is back to pulling.  I don't mean for my reply to be a sermon on training, but that's my biggest reason for not liking harnesses at all.  In my personal experience, most people rely too much on them so that they don't actually have to properly train their dog.

I still have my dog's first harness, but still don't use it even though he's great on the leash.  The matting number it does on his full coat is painful for him and aggravating for me and I find that I have even less control over him if he's wearing a harness while in a new excitable environment. It's not a specialized training harness, so yes, his harness does make it easier for him to pull towards what he's set his sights on and what's worse is that with his harness I can't correct him versus with a leash and collar it only takes a light pop on the lead to direct his focus back to me. This probably isn't an issue for those that use specialized harnesses that allows the dog to correct itself when it pulls on a lead.

All I'm saying is that I don't like them and that they don't work with my personal training philosophy.  If it works with your dog and you're happy with it that's fine too, but you have to remember that you won't really know how well-trained your dog is until she's back on a flat buckle collar and lead or better yet, completely off leash.

Offline clairep4

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2922
  • Gender: Female
  • The Two Muppeteers!
    • Chow Bella Pet Bowls
Re: What's your views on harnesses?
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2010, 10:15:32 AM »
Praia - your "light pop on the lead" is exactly the reason I really don't advocate using flat collars. You are jerking your dog's neck and many a McTimoney animal chiropractor will be able to tell you the number of dogs whose necks are put out by exactly this kind of thing.  The subsequent tension that builds up in the neck has a ripple effect throughout the body and can (and does) cause behavioural problems.

The other issue with giving a "pop on the lead" is that people tend to do this when their dog is reacting to something, which can in turn make them more reactive (as they are usually reacting as they're worried about whatever it is, and that reactivity can be as mild as pulling on the lead, but you then give them a jerk to their neck which they may associate with the thing they were reacting to, and so you end up with their fear increasing).

As a Ttouch practitioner I always recommend to clients that they either switch to a harness, or they walk the dog in a balance leash (where you use a long lead which you hook around the dog's chest so you end up with two points of contact and the pressure is to the chest and not to the collar). I have worked with many dogs when they are being reactive to something, straining on the collar, up on the back legs barking at something, and the simple exercise of wrapping the lead around the front of the chest and holding them this way so that you take all pressure off the neck, can be enough to get the dog to really calm back down.

I generally do not advocate anti-pull harnesses as they physically stop the dog from pulling and I agree that some people rely on this rather than training the dog to walk in balance. However some dogs are REALLY pully and an anti-pull harness can be a starting point as you can then click and treat the dog the moment it's in balance, build from there and then switch to a normal harness.

Personally I think you can have far more control over a dog in a harness with two points of contact - it is much easier to guide a dog in the direction you want by leading from the front, firmly stroking the contact from the chest and looking in the direction you want to go so that the dog has very clear signals, both through the contact on the lead (stroking the lead encourages the dog to move whereas "popping" the lead just feels very unpleasant and sets up more tension in the body), and through you looking at where you want to go (as the dog will follow your eye direction).

I don't really understand your view that "you won't really know how well-trained your dog is until she's back on a flat buckle collar and lead" - if your dog is walking to heel in a normal (not an anti-pull) harness then she IS trained!  :dunno:
Claire, Bella & Zorro - the two muppeteers!
Tellington TTouch Practitioner P1
www.tellingtontouch.org.uk

Offline Top Barks

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5234
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.topbarks.co.uk
Re: What's your views on harnesses?
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2010, 04:19:33 PM »
Praia - your "light pop on the lead" is exactly the reason I really don't advocate using flat collars. You are jerking your dog's neck and many a McTimoney animal chiropractor will be able to tell you the number of dogs whose necks are put out by exactly this kind of thing.  The subsequent tension that builds up in the neck has a ripple effect throughout the body and can (and does) cause behavioural problems.

The other issue with giving a "pop on the lead" is that people tend to do this when their dog is reacting to something, which can in turn make them more reactive (as they are usually reacting as they're worried about whatever it is, and that reactivity can be as mild as pulling on the lead, but you then give them a jerk to their neck which they may associate with the thing they were reacting to, and so you end up with their fear increasing).

As a Ttouch practitioner I always recommend to clients that they either switch to a harness, or they walk the dog in a balance leash (where you use a long lead which you hook around the dog's chest so you end up with two points of contact and the pressure is to the chest and not to the collar). I have worked with many dogs when they are being reactive to something, straining on the collar, up on the back legs barking at something, and the simple exercise of wrapping the lead around the front of the chest and holding them this way so that you take all pressure off the neck, can be enough to get the dog to really calm back down.

I generally do not advocate anti-pull harnesses as they physically stop the dog from pulling and I agree that some people rely on this rather than training the dog to walk in balance. However some dogs are REALLY pully and an anti-pull harness can be a starting point as you can then click and treat the dog the moment it's in balance, build from there and then switch to a normal harness.

Personally I think you can have far more control over a dog in a harness with two points of contact - it is much easier to guide a dog in the direction you want by leading from the front, firmly stroking the contact from the chest and looking in the direction you want to go so that the dog has very clear signals, both through the contact on the lead (stroking the lead encourages the dog to move whereas "popping" the lead just feels very unpleasant and sets up more tension in the body), and through you looking at where you want to go (as the dog will follow your eye direction).

I don't really understand your view that "you won't really know how well-trained your dog is until she's back on a flat buckle collar and lead" - if your dog is walking to heel in a normal (not an anti-pull) harness then she IS trained!  :dunno:

Totally with you Claire :D

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk