Dog keeps having a go at Freya on walks

[sandie72]

There are some idiots out there.

I'm aware Honey can be horrid to submissive dogs - strangely she's fine with nervous/anxious dogs, but with happy but submissive dogs she can be horrid - but I know that' *Honey's* problem, not the submissive dog's.  "Fear vibes" indeed.... *rollseyes* 

sandie72 - if that was your puppy trainer's advice, I wouldn't be going back.  We have a very hectic puppy class at the minute, with a little shit-zu who is very growly/barky if other dogs are looking at her - we are working with the owner to help keep her distracted and calm so that she can get used to the other dogs about her without having to confront them.  What exactly did your trainer suggest you should be doing?
(Incidentally, if the situation you described happened in our puppy classes, we would ask the owner of the big dog to keep their dog away, and encourage all owners to keep their dog's focus on them rather than the other dogs.  It's hard work, but it's the best way to keep the situation calm and relaxed for the pups!)

What is really annoying is that Kayla has never growled at any dog until this incident with the chocolate lab...training class we go to is a mixture of ages and we have been attending since Kayla was 10 weeks old where she has already gained her bronze award. Trainer should know Kayla is not in the habit of growling so I was quite taken aback with the telling off.
The other dog was new to class so Kayla hadn't met it before...trainer has told us to turn your dog into you and hold their collar so you are face to face with your dog and angrily say 'don't you dare' if they do anything unacceptable.
The worst thing was she told me I should actually set up an event like this to happen again to see how Kayla would react.    Kayla is submissive and I know it was through fear that she reacted the way she did and through the event with the choc lab.

Any advice appreciated. Sorry for butting in on your thread.   

[Jonnydog]

So sorry to hear about this. It's inexcusable for people to be so rude and the JR owner should not be allowed to let her dog behave like that especially as she knows the reaction that will happen.

First a question: has Freya ever met the JR while she's off the lead? I'm asking because when Jonny and Jess met an aggressive GSD one day while all three were off lead, Jonny ran for the hills, even though the GSD was actually attacking Jess (he'd had a scary encounter with a GSD before and was and still is terrified of them). Jess, who was a very timid wee cocker, rolled over onto her back immediately and after a very scary (for me) moment, the GS lost interest and his owner managed to drag him away. Jess was fortunately unhurt and not particularly upset. Thereafter, with a few exceptions, she would avoid eye contact with other dogs we met and slink along the ditch or undergrowth and keep a low profile. Funny wee thing!

The other thing is, I used to have a JR long ago who could be aggressive to big dogs such as GSDs. I was very careful to watch her body language when we were out and about if another dog approached and if I saw the hackles go up, I knew to get her on the lead. However, if she approached with tail lowered and her body in a 'comma' shape, I knew she had friendly intentions.

I don't know if any of this is helpful, but I can so understand how you feel with Freya. Other dogs will be dogs, but owners can be a nightmare! (I once was clasped amorously round the waist by an oversexed collie who refused to let go while the owner walked by either oblivious or deliberately not looking!)
 
Di

[Karma]

The other dog was new to class so Kayla hadn't met it before...trainer has told us to turn your dog into you and hold their collar so you are face to face with your dog and angrily say 'don't you dare' if they do anything unacceptable.
The worst thing was she told me I should actually set up an event like this to happen again to see how Kayla would react.    Kayla is submissive and I know it was through fear that she reacted the way she did and through the event with the choc lab.

Any advice appreciated. Sorry for butting in on your thread.   

Seriously??
All that has is the potential to make a little bit of nervousness turn into full on reactive aggression.
This is a good article about dogs growling in general http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com/dog-growls-snaps.aspx
In your circumstances I would try to prevent Kayla being put in that position - as this was a class situation, I assume she was on-lead?  That would have meant she had no option of running away, so warning the other dog off would be her only way of telling it (and you) she was unhappy.  So I would walk away with my dog if another dog approaches - if possible getting between my dog and the approaching dog.
I'd also work on a "look at me" command, so that you can ask Kayla to focus her attention on you rather than what she perceives as threats.  But you need to be able to ensure that other dogs don't gatecrash this attention... You can also reward her looking at, but not reacting to, approaching dogs - so getting a reward in as she spots an approaching threat, and then moving away.  In the longrun this will help change her reactions to threats.
I would also try and get as much off-lead socialisation with calm confident dogs as possible, to rebuild her confidence - especially larger breeds like labs, so that you can undo the negative association built up.

And I'd tell your trainer where to stick their advice... 

[Goggins]

  Just wanted to Thank you All for all your comments and its made me sad hearing how many others have been through this too...

Posted by: Jonnydog
Insert Quote
So sorry to hear about this. It's inexcusable for people to be so rude and the JR owner should not be allowed to let her dog behave like that especially as she knows the reaction that will happen.

First a question: has Freya ever met the JR while she's off the lead?

Everytime Freya has encountered this JR she has always been off lead. I didnt want to start putting her on the lead in case my tension and crossness went down the lead to her.

My poor sis came home to find me in floods of tears and after talking it through to my mum we have decided that one or both of them will walk with me and Freya if we go out and are likely to meet the woman and her JR. We will also take Merlin (mums collie) as one time we did take him with Freya, the JR went to have a go and Freya hid in between Merlins legs and it couldnt get to her. I walk Freya separately as I think its better for her not to rely on the other 2 woofs...and be independent. As I say she loves meeting all other woofs including the huge Northern Inuit dog at dog club who she tarts with and rolls on her back for him to have a very good sniff (rolleyes!!)...

Thank You All once again...I really dont know where Id be without you all 

[Toni-UK]

You are not alone, unfortunately it happens to all of us at some time or another.This thread also discusses what is bad manners and what isn't.

http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=84465.0

my problem is with two rottweillers,their owner is rude and aggressive so i shouldn't expect anything different from the dogs really.

[sandie72]

The other dog was new to class so Kayla hadn't met it before...trainer has told us to turn your dog into you and hold their collar so you are face to face with your dog and angrily say 'don't you dare' if they do anything unacceptable.
The worst thing was she told me I should actually set up an event like this to happen again to see how Kayla would react.    Kayla is submissive and I know it was through fear that she reacted the way she did and through the event with the choc lab.

Any advice appreciated. Sorry for butting in on your thread.   

Seriously??
All that has is the potential to make a little bit of nervousness turn into full on reactive aggression.
This is a good article about dogs growling in general http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com/dog-growls-snaps.aspx
In your circumstances I would try to prevent Kayla being put in that position - as this was a class situation, I assume she was on-lead?  That would have meant she had no option of running away, so warning the other dog off would be her only way of telling it (and you) she was unhappy.  So I would walk away with my dog if another dog approaches - if possible getting between my dog and the approaching dog.
I'd also work on a "look at me" command, so that you can ask Kayla to focus her attention on you rather than what she perceives as threats.  But you need to be able to ensure that other dogs don't gatecrash this attention... You can also reward her looking at, but not reacting to, approaching dogs - so getting a reward in as she spots an approaching threat, and then moving away.  In the longrun this will help change her reactions to threats.
I would also try and get as much off-lead socialisation with calm confident dogs as possible, to rebuild her confidence - especially larger breeds like labs, so that you can undo the negative association built up.

And I'd tell your trainer where to stick their advice... 

Thankyou for all your great advice above and it definately makes much more sense than what my trainer has told me to do. I am really going to work hard with Kayla with the socialising again...such a shame that she has lost this confidence due to other offlead dogs bounding up to her. 

[Uncon]

Isn't it just good manners for everyone to put their dogs on a lead when they encounter another for the first time? That is accepted etiquette where I am as hpwever friendly your dog is they may take exception to another.

I'm having a little trouble with the new girl who has gone from incredibly quiet and nervous to over confidence and bossiness, luckily we have some great dog owners here willing to help me teach her that friendly dogs get all the fuss and treats and silly barky ones who try to look tough get ignored!

[praia]

As someone who owns a JRT, I am appalled and sickened by how rude and ignorant that woman is.  She is a disgrace to all responsible JRT owners and truly does a disservice to the breed. 

Good for you for confronting her, though I probably would have been much more harsh in my tone and words.  She sounds just like way her dog has turned out to be under her ownership: a bully. 

[Toni-UK]

Isn't it just good manners for everyone to put their dogs on a lead when they encounter another for the first time? That is accepted etiquette where I am as hpwever friendly your dog is they may take exception to another.

If i put Ruby on lead every time we met a new dog,i would spend half my walk clipping and unclipping her lead,so no i don't.I leave the greetings to them,they are best at it as i don't speak dog.
One dog taking exception to another is all part of walking your dog,sometimes it happens.  

The one thing i don't allow Ruby to do is to approach an onlead dog when she is offlead,the other dog is onlead for a reason so i just won't let her do it,i think that is good etiquette but no many people follow it.

My friends mini schnauzer approached an onlead saluki,and was grabbed and shook like a ragdoll for his trying to say hello,i did warn my friend............

[Uncon]

If i put Ruby on lead every time we met a new dog,i would spend half my walk clipping and unclipping her lead,so no i don't.I leave the greetings to them,they are best at it as i don't speak dog.
One dog taking exception to another is all part of walking your dog,sometimes it happens.  

The one thing i don't allow Ruby to do is to approach an onlead dog when she is offlead,the other dog is onlead for a reason so i just won't let her

I think we shall have to agree to disagree there. Personally if it means clipping on and off the lead when your dog approaches a new one in order to ensure there is not a problem...then it is fine by me. Harvey was attacked by three JRT's when he was two - he was on a lead and they were not. Their owner had that attitude and they also had a rather large bill to pay and have to sign an agreement to ALWAYS keep their dogs on a lead in public areas.  When you have control over your dog then you have taken responsibility. We are talking about our pets not our pack.

[Karma]

Except that, where there are lots of off-lead dogs, by putting your dog on-lead, you put them at the disadvantage in communicating - off-lead Honey normally avoids other dogs, on-lead she doesn't have that option, so will have-a-go at them instead.

Yes, an off-lead dog shouldn't be allowed to approach an on-lead dog (though plenty of people round here do just that), but two off-lead dogs meeting is the best way for dogs to meet appropriately. 

[Uncon]

If everyone keeps their dogs on a lead for the first few seconds meeting a strange dog, then what harm could befall either dog? Is a risk free first aquaintance so bad?

[Sarah.H]

Millie is definitely worse meeting other dogs on lead. In fact I'd say she is probably 100% likely to react in a defensive manner when she is on a short lead. But if off lead or on the flexi lead she will only react if the other dog does something to provoke her.

[Toni-UK]

If everyone keeps their dogs on a lead for the first few seconds meeting a strange dog, then what harm could befall either dog? Is a risk free first aquaintance so bad?

Harm could still occur when both dogs are leashed,it is an un natural way to greet.

If one dog does take a dislike to another as you say,if both dogs are unleashed they have a chance to move/run/dodge/defend (you name it)them selves from harm.

When you say the JRT owner had "that attitude",what exactly do you mean 

[Uncon]

The attitude was that it was better for her dogs to be off the lead...that would be the dogs who attacked my dog which resulted in multiple wounds and an operation to stitch his throat back together - total cost nearly £600 in money and a lifetime in trauma for my dog.

I do appreciate what you say, but experience and a lot of work to make Harvey the bomb proof specimen he is (except with JRTs) tells me that perhaps letting your dog off to menace others potentially before knowing how the other owner or dog will react is not as brilliant as people are making out...I really feel for Freya