Author Topic: Possession Aggression  (Read 3891 times)

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Offline noelleybelley

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Possession Aggression
« on: July 31, 2012, 08:20:25 AM »
I had posted this on the end of my other thread, but I think this section may be more helpful.

Just over a week ago we picked up Murphy, a rescue cocker/lab cross, and it turns out he has quite bad possession aggression.

He steals things and then will NOT give them back.  If you try to take it back, he snarls and will lunge for you.  This isn't playing, he really means it.

After the first time, on Thursday, (when he'd pinched a knitted coaster), we've taken to ignoring him until he loses interest in whatever he has.  However, if you're in the same room and he's near the door, it's too dangerous to walk past him, so he just lies and growls at you, no matter where you're looking.  If you're not in the same room but he can see you, he lies and growls at you, never looking away, which is very off putting.  This is happening daily now.

He also tried to bite my 19yr old daughter tonight.  He was counter surfing in the kitchen, she went to move him down and he turned and bit her arm.  

He seems to like men, but has total disregard for women.

The rest of the time he's a normal, loving, sweetie.  

Any advice would be very welcome, please    :-\

Offline Joules

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Re: Possession Aggression
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2012, 08:34:06 AM »
Sorry to hear you are having this problem with Murphy  :'(  I guess he will not be sorted overnight but I am sure you will do the best with him you can.   :D

I am sure someone will be along with lots of help but, in the meantime, have you tried getting him to swap his prize with something else - another toy/tasty treat etc??  If he is really a foodie boy then maybe you could keep an extra special treat just for getting him to give you whatever he has pinched - then he will get to associate giving things up with a nice reward - might take a while and lots of perseverence I guess.  ;)  Don't ever try and take anything out of his mouth or move him though - confrontation is likely to make him worse - better to try and lure him with a treat ;)

You may need to get a behaviourist involved to help with this and better sooner rather than later - you never know what experiences he has had to make him behave this way  :'(

Best of luck with him  ;)
Julie and Watson

Offline phoenix

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Re: Possession Aggression
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2012, 08:48:43 AM »
I think the rescue people should have sussed this out. Its a shame to to discover you have got a difficult situation like this.
There is loads of advice on col on this if you search old posts, but maybe a behaviourist would be  sensible route, since biting has already happened. Poor dog may have had maltreatment over possession issues, and like you said, in other ways he is lovely, and deserving a fresh start. I know small rescue organisations have no money, but could the one you got him from assist with getting an assessment?
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.

Offline Bluebell

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Re: Possession Aggression
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2012, 09:20:23 AM »
I think the rescue people should have sussed this out. Its a shame to to discover you have got a difficult situation like this.
There is loads of advice on col on this if you search old posts, but maybe a behaviourist would be  sensible route, since biting has already happened. Poor dog may have had maltreatment over possession issues, and like you said, in other ways he is lovely, and deserving a fresh start. I know small rescue organisations have no money, but could the one you got him from assist with getting an assessment?
Agree with this. If he is biting, it is a very big issue to deal with, and you will need alot of professional support :-\
I wish you all the best in helping Murphy to deal with the issues of his past  :D

Offline JaspersMum

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Re: Possession Aggression
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2012, 09:24:51 AM »
Nothing beats professional advice face to face but might also be worth getting a copy of Jean Donaldsons "Mine" for some day to day advice.  It's also available in download version on Amazon   ;)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mine-Practical-Guide-Resource-Guarding/dp/0970562942/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343723035&sr=8-1

Jenny - owned by Jasper, Ellie, Heidi, Louie & Charlie

Offline phoenix

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Re: Possession Aggression
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2012, 09:42:14 AM »
I agree with reading 'Mine'.    Apart from letting you understand the steps that the counter-conditioning and de-sensitisation will involve, it is also passionate about understanding the dog's subtle body language. Not an easy book for the non professional, but made me appreciate the skill and patience required to have the good outcome that you need. If the rest of the family are angry, I think a discussion with a trainer ,for everyone in the house, would be a good idea so that everyone is on the same wavelength, or the training gets spoilt.
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.

Offline Archie bean

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Re: Possession Aggression
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2012, 10:49:27 AM »
I agree with reading 'Mine'.    Apart from letting you understand the steps that the counter-conditioning and de-sensitisation will involve, it is also passionate about understanding the dog's subtle body language. Not an easy book for the non professional, but made me appreciate the skill and patience required to have the good outcome that you need. If the rest of the family are angry, I think a discussion with a trainer ,for everyone in the house, would be a good idea so that everyone is on the same wavelength, or the training gets spoilt.

Absolutely agree. It's a tough read but totally invaluable if you are having these issues. I feel for you as I have been in the same position. I found myself trapped in the lounge for half an hour when Archie had a bone and was chewing it in the doorway. "Mine" helped me soooo much with getting to grips with the problem.
Getting a professional in to help is also a brilliant idea. It will take time, patience and hard work but you can turn things around. 6 months down the line and Archie will happily let me hold a bone for him to chew.

Im no expert and others will be able to advise better I suspect but some things I found useful to manage the situation while training is ongoing have been:

Removing all potential sources of a problem. This might mean you need to keep the kitchen as a no go area and don't let him be around if you are eating. Clear away anything that you don't want him to have.

NEVER raise your voice (tricky I know). When Archie has a forbidden object I always use a sing song voice and say something like "ooh what have you got? Clever boy" I don't let him know that there is a problem. I then ask him to fetch it for a biscuit. He will always go to his bed and when I say off he drops whatever it is in return for a biccie. No growls at all now and I can always approach and touch him when he has something. In time I know I will be able to get him to drop without the treat. It just takes time. Baby steps! Keeping calm and non-aggressive has really been the key with Archie.

Tug games have helped build up trust. He loves them and I often let him win which has taught him that I am not necessarily going to take something away if I put my hand on it.

Good luck. I'm sure he is still adjusting to his new home and that things will soon be on the right track.  :bigarmhug:

Offline Cockertime Blues

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Re: Possession Aggression
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2012, 07:53:49 PM »
So sorry Murphy is having problems.  The rescue really should be helping you - with advice for the life time of the dog at the least, and one on one sessions if they have a trained staff member.

You say he "tried to bite" your daughter and then that he bit her.  Which?  Did he growl first, then snap, then bite?  Was it an inhibited bite or did he draw blood?  He would not have "tried to bite," he would have bitten or not bitten.

Good luck with this.  It seems like others on here have been there and worked through it.  Having lived with a dog I was very wary of and that we "managed" rather than resolving the problem, I know it's not easy.

Offline noelleybelley

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Re: Possession Aggression
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2012, 09:08:34 PM »
Sorry, I re-read that bit after I'd written it and thought it didn't really make sense!  He turned and bit her arm, but she had a thick hoodie on, so he didn't do any damage, other than she said she could still feel it a few minutes later.  She's 19 and has grown up with dogs, so she is fine.  He didn't growl, it was all very quick, she went to lift him down from the counter, (he wasn't on it, just surfing along the edge), and he turned and had a real go at her.

One other thing I meant to say, it seems like he has her marked as the Omega already, which is funny, because Charlie did the same thing!  Is there a way she can stop this?

He's had a good day today and has been well behaved - and mostly he is lovely!  99% of the time...

Offline john51

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Re: Possession Aggression
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2012, 01:53:58 PM »
I feel a bit feeble here because having gone through very similar things with Lenny over the last 18 months, I feel I should be able to help but am not sure whether I can.

Firstly, I agree that getting a behaviourist in would be a good idea if you can find a good one. I have heard a few stories about people not being fortunate and therefore decided not to.

Secondly, time helps. Change may be gradual but you will see it if you stick to sensible, consistent treatment. It's great to see your dog's behaviour improve.

Thirdly, Mine! is worth reading but won't give you any easy answers. How you use it depends on your approach to training.

Fourthly, time is important in another way. You need to give your dog a bit of time to accept that he's going to do something. As an example, as your daughter has seen, it's not a good idea to stick your hand in quickly to get a dog with this type of problem to move. I have had a number of bites to confirm that. If instead you turn to face the dog give a command to get down and then just wait for him to respond, he is likely to realise that it's probably a good idea to stand down from the worktop. In a similar way I had a number of stand-offs with Lenny, who had problems with food aggression as well as possessiveness with toys etc. In particular, on walks he would occasionally start eating poo and growl if I approached. If I tried to put him on a lead quickly I would get either a snap or a bite. If I waited, and stood next to him, his mood would eventually change and I could put him on the lead and take him away. Often he would show his displeasure by attacking my walking boots but I just stayed still and silent and let the moment pass. Now, I can tell him to leave the poo and walk on, and I feel confident that I can reach out for his collar to put him on the lead without risking a bite. I will always keep a check on his mood and give him more time if I need to.

I expect I am going to be criticised by behaviourists who will say I have got everything wrong, but I think you need to gently challenge the behaviour without being aggressive. So in the case of  Murphy occupying the doorway, move a bit closer and let him growl for a bit without feeling too threatened then move away without trying to take anything off him. Maybe give him a treat, throw it if necessary, and then move away to show that it's not a bad thing to let you come nearer. When you feel confident enough, and maybe there's a bit more space than usual, walk past him when he's stolen something without paying any attention to him or the stolen article.

It's hard work and you will get relapses but I think the reward you get from improving the behaviour of dogs like this is brilliant.

I wish you all the very best as you help him overcome his problems and I am sure that you will have a fantastic dog in the future.
Home of Lenny and the late, great, Dylan.

Offline Archie bean

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Re: Possession Aggression
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2012, 02:47:34 PM »
I think you need to gently challenge the behaviour without being aggressive. So in the case of  Murphy occupying the doorway, move a bit closer and let him growl for a bit without feeling too threatened then move away without trying to take anything off him. Maybe give him a treat, throw it if necessary, and then move away to show that it's not a bad thing to let you come nearer. When you feel confident enough, and maybe there's a bit more space than usual, walk past him when he's stolen something without paying any attention to him or the stolen article.


I think that is brilliant advice.

Offline MacTavish Boys

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Re: Possession Aggression
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2012, 03:15:27 PM »
Good advice there from John ;) you will get there with time and patience  :luv:
Stephanie, George and Hamish xxx
George'n' Hamish's Mum

Offline Cockertime Blues

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Re: Possession Aggression
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2012, 08:01:50 PM »
JOhn51, you made sense to me.  Pretty much what I've done (but I'm not a behaviourist either).

Offline Top Barks

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Re: Possession Aggression
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2012, 09:30:46 PM »
Personally I think moving into a dogs space and  letting it growl for a bit could end up as a recipe for disaster. You could put the dog in a state of conflict where it may well want the treat but is unsure about the situation which can make matters worse.
With issues  like this it is best to get professional help rather than muddling through although saying that the book recommended by jaspersmum is an essential read for owners of dogs with possession issues.

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
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Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline noelleybelley

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Re: Possession Aggression
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2012, 10:42:42 PM »
I'm not sure we're cut out for this   :'(

We had friends around today and Murphy went for my daughter three times while we were all sat in the front room.  Now he's holed up in the other room with a flapjack he stole off the kitchen counter.  We've offered him roast beef and cheese and he just lunges at us when we go near the door.  My husband has had enough already, my daughter is scared of him, and I don't trust him an inch.  He's very unpredictable as it's not just food that he sees as treasure to be protected.  He hasn't tried to eat the flapjack, he is just guarding it.