CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: BuryFCA1 on January 31, 2016, 05:46:15 PM
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Our 15 month old boy disappeared on me and my wife yesterday into the woods chasing the scent of a deer. We had seen the deer but he hadn't and he caught the smell of it. Despite both me and my wife recalling him as furiously and as loudly as we could be was frantic and off into the woods leaving me and my wife to have heart attacks at his disappearance. He has never done this before and he just seemed wild. Is this normal for this time of year (spring time)? Is it his age? He is neutered yet we are unsure if he had some sort of sexual urge? We are going to work on total recall with a whistle and nice treat but could somebody explain why he was so mad for the scent of a deer which was so out of character. Thanks ps he is our first dog
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Basically, its the hunting instinct I'd say, its probably more predominant in Spaniels and other hunting breeds but lots of breeds will do exactly the same if the scent is strong enough. There are others on here who will know more about anti hunting training than I do, but in the meantime I can only advise keeping your eyes open and avoiding areas, forests etc, where there might be deer around. Once in full chase, even the best trained dog will be hard to recall, they seem to switch off. I've been in your position a couple of times with previous dogs and its scary - also dangerous here where I live, as if they're seen by hunters they'll be shot, no questions asked.
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don't panic. Most of us have been there and got the tee shirt. I remember when Gemma did it, I was in a total panic and all that was going through my mind was " how long do I wait till I ring dog lost" . I am afraid a good scent to them will have the same effect as a whiff of a chocolate hobnob has on me. All you can do is work on the recall. With Gemma (5) we are always calling (whistling) her back randomly. Usually we can pick up on her " I going to bolt" mannerisms and get control of her before she scarpers ;)
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Don't beat yourself up - it happens. Frightens the living daylights out of you. It's what they were bred to do and it takes hours and hours of practice and training all the time to get anywhere near bombproof. I think you just have to take great care where you let them off and be alert for escape routes.
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My best advice would be to get to a gundog trainer sooner rather than later. Once he's had a taste of "free hunting / self rewarding" it is very difficult to either pull them back in or trust again! He is the right age to be entering the third phase of development - now is a good time to go back to basics and embed a stop whistle plus recall.
Good luck - I'm still working on this in the second phase ;)
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and don't watch the "Fenton" video :o
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Yep, we have had real problems recently with our recall as Dexter's nose just gets the better of him. it is almost like his ears don't work anymore.
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Three days after we moved up to Scotland I took my Scottie and Milo the spaniel for a walk in the local disused quarry. Milo flushed up a deer and took off, I heard his barks disappear into the distance. I was frantic as I did not know the area, and was sure he would get lost as he didn't,t know it either. I rushed the old Scottie home, and charged around looking for him, to no avail. Two hours later he came home, looking very happy and exhausted, his coat thick with fir twigs. I didn't,t know whether to kill him or hug him. I suppose he followed his own scent home, phew! It,s a horrible horrible feeling.
One of my scotties disappeared after a squirrel in the country park, again a frantic search, and I found her in the car park waiting next to a very smart BMW, rather than our old jalopie! They are cleverer than we think!
Lesley and Dylan
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The scent of deer is strongest when it is scared and running, which is why it is so hard for a dog to ignore. We have a lot of deer in the fields around our village. I try to be one step ahead and if I see one I call them back and put the lead on before they have chance to disappear! However we also walk in forests which are full of deer and although keen to track the scents they haven't disappeared after any yet! I think you were probably unlucky, but worth just being vigilant in areas where you know they are.
I do think training to stop during real chase is very hard and probably no matter how hard you blew the stop whistle, once in that mindset he would not have turned and come back. I know with my girls if I don't get the whistle in at the right moment they go deaf and ignore me! I have tried gundog training and it has helped but not all the methods that gundog trainers use to get your dog to come back are very kind! I would suggest you select your trainer carefully!
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Its really hard to train for this, I have known a good few field trial standard dogs that were steady to fur and feather but not deer, trouble is that for most its a rare occurrence so difficult to train for, my old cocker Henry treated deer like sheep and completely ignored them as did my labs, my springer Drake also good with sheep would give chase on sight of a deer I never did cure him. I am sure Teal would chase if she sighted one but I can call her away from deer scent.
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I agree JeffD. Yes, I can call away from scent too but the real thing is a bit different and very hard to proof against! I did some gun dog training using rabbit fur on a bungey. My girl looked at me as if to say, do you think I am that stupid to run after that!!!! However if the real thing ran out in front of her it would be a different story! It will be good to try to work on recall away from scent trails if you can, you need to break their focus on it and make yourself far more exciting than what they are smelling!!
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I can't help thinking that if I could make myself more exciting than a deer in full flight I would get invited to lots more parties! :lol:
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I can't help thinking that if I could make myself more exciting than a deer in full flight I would get invited to lots more parties! :lol:
:rofl1: :clapping:
Brilliant!
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:rofl1: :rofl1: o'h priceless :005: :005:
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I'm another one with a deer chaser. The scent drives Tilly nuts and we've had a few incidents because there are lots of muntjac near us - you find them in the smallest copses. I can stop her easily if I spot them before she does, but of course I haven't quite got the nose that she has ;).
Fortunately, Tilly seems to know in her heart that she'll never catch one and gives up before she's gone too far!
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Well I disagree that you can't stop a spaniel chasing a deer ;)
We were up in the woods last week and heard a commotion and 5 deer being chased by a Golden retriever ran straight in front of us. Both my 10 12 year old and 15 month old started running and stopped dead to the stop whistle. The GR's owner was still screaming in the distance for her dog to come back to her. As for rabbits, Jago is going in the rabbit pen in the next few weeks so we'll see how steady and ingrained his stop whistle is :)
I agree with Pearly - some gundog training would be beneficial. It's not only the chasing, it's the danger they place themselves in running through woods when their adrenaline is high. So many dogs hurt themselves or get run over in the pursuit :-\
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If anything is standing still Miss J is not at all bothered but as soon as they scatter she is on the chase. Had an eventful weekend at my daughters when one of her goats decided to climb out of their field it was only when I was 6 foot away that she stopped to have her lead put on, however as the cats dont run away as they are used to dogs, she just walked passed them without any reaction!
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I have dabbled in gundog training, including learning the stop whistle. It did work, unless it was to stop going after a pheasant or rabbit and then it was a massive failure! So I get it wasn't fully proofed, but how can you proof it in those situations ? The dog trainer I went to showed me a couple of methods but neither sat comfortably with how I like to train my dogs! My dogs are also both of the sensitive disposition so I have to be careful how I tread. My girls are so good, responsive and well behaved in every way, apart from if they spot a pheasant or rabbit to chase. We walk along a river daily, past swans, geese, ducks etc and they don't bat an eyelid, we walk through herds of cows, past sheep and horses and they are perfect, but rabbits and pheasants are different!
I would appreciate any top tips which will help, although at nearly 5 and 8 years old I suspect they may beyond retraining in this area ?
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I would appreciate any top tips which will help, although at nearly 5 and 8 years old I suspect they may beyond retraining in this area ?
Ben was 6 when we stated doing proper recall training and we were able to completely stop him chasing anything. He would recall from anything whether it was running or just standing there so I don't think age is a barrier.
Harry has been more of a challenge as a rescue with a lot of anxiety, it was nearly a year before he was ready to learn basics like sit as he was quite a scared little thing :'( He will recall now from everything apart from deer if he actually sees them running, the scent itself is not a problem. As we walk in Chatsworth which is a deer park we have to be vigilant, carry a long line and plan ahead. I think if you know you don't have a safe recall you do need to take steps to stop it happening again, and if that means walking in some areas on a long line then that's safer for all concerned than your dog chasing after deer.
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Off topic maybe but i've never found any recall that worked for pheasant. I once managed to rugby tackle one of my working cockers after he'd been in a covert for 10 minutes deaf to every recall signal- and some pleading involving cheese. When I pounced on him and picked him up his eyes were glazed over. Not sure he knew his own name.
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sure he was in a covert? Maybe he'd been in the pub!! :005: :005:
Seriously though, - how do you react when the recall hasn't worked? Humphrey's very good, but he's just 9 months now and has started to cock a deaf ear now and again this week. I was advised against repeatedly calling, so have called twice and then gone and fetched him (after a bit of a dance around), but what do you then? I don't like the word "punishment" but I'm always at a bit of a loss to know how to let him know what he's done, or rather not done, isn't acceptable. No TV for a week doesn't work, unfortunately!
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put him on a long line bizzylizzy - as for not being able to stop them, don't let them start! You need to keep them as close to you as possible so you can give them commands. It's no good when they're 100 yards away and then see a rabbit or a pheasant - you're on a hiding to nothing. In the woods mine are allowed to run in eyesight and are constantly being recalled, sent off in different directions and stopped. All walk :) I guess we're lucky because on these walks there will be definitely be deer and rabbits (at the right time of day) and possibly game birds so it's proofing them all the time. Jarv is 10 1/2 and I've never stopped training him!
If they do bolt you need a reliable stop to stop them before they go too far and then won't listen at all.
Daw, if you don't gundog train your working cockers you can't expect them to know how to respond. All untrained spaniels can be uncontrollable around game. My 15 month old will be in a rabbit pen in the next few weeks learning to be steady. He will be expected to stop and sit even when a rabbit is right under his nose or bolting from him. It can be done.
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What made you think I don't? That's why I said 'one'.
That's why he was classed as 'failed gundog'. That's why Bernie the beautiful was a failed sniffer dog. As the special branch handler said 'We tried everything.' That's why I love spaniels not adding machines. But if you have a foolproof method of training Helen please tell HM services not me. ;)
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Mine love to chase squirrels but I manage to retrieve them back (my fear is they might do this and run off in front of a car) - as suggested its all about training. I've trained all mine to come back to the whistle (I use an acme 210.5)
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put him on a long line bizzylizzy - as for not being able to stop them, don't let them start! You need to keep them as close to you as possible so you can give them commands. It's no good when they're 100 yards away and then see a rabbit or a pheasant - you're on a hiding to nothing. In the woods mine are allowed to run in eyesight and are constantly being recalled, sent off in different directions and stopped. All walk :) I guess we're lucky because on these walks there will be definitely be deer and rabbits (at the right time of day) and possibly game birds so it's proofing them all the time. Jarv is 10 1/2 and I've never stopped training him!
If they do bolt you need a reliable stop to stop them before they go too far and then won't listen at all.
I don't have a problem (yet) with running off, Humphrey's always close by, he has a regular "spurt"!on the trail of a GSD that has always walked the same way 10'minutesmahead of us ,but one blast on the whistle and he's on his way back, no problems there. The cocking the deaf ear bit, is usually while he's having a bit of sniff and I want to call him to heel, then he'll stop, look up,and then and carry on (unless I walk off, in which case he'll follow) and its in these situations when I'm not sure what I should be doing. (usually a stern word and the lead goes back on, but I'm not sure if that's the answer). I know lots of you use long leads but I just can't get along with them and there'd be no way I couldmhold him anyway if he bolted on tne end of a 15 foot line. Its diverting a bit from the OP's question but I'm sure I'm not alone with this "adolescence" problem, so thought it worth a mention.
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Helen - in the rabbit pen do you hold his lead or his he loose ? If he does go after a rabbit what happens to him ? The punishment is the bit that I don't like!
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What made you think I don't? That's why I said 'one'.
That's why he was classed as 'failed gundog'. That's why Bernie the beautiful was a failed sniffer dog. As the special branch handler said 'We tried everything.' That's why I love spaniels not adding machines. But if you have a foolproof method of training Helen please tell HM services not me. ;)
I wasn't aware HM services worked in areas relating to livestock and game which is probably why their methods didn't work which is Helen's point re training using specific methods relating to game
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I had the privilege of spending yesterday with one of the most respected gun dog trainers in the UK. At the end of the day, he demonstrated a young (18 months) springer in the rabbit pen.
She was off lead. She hunted beautifully. She stopped on all but one rabbit flush. There was no punishment just reward and on the one that the dog didn't stop - by 2ft - she was put back into a sit position at the point he'd blown the whistle.
To teach a reliable whistle takes hours of training. Every walk should be a training opportunity - walk a few paces, blow the whistle ans if your dog doesn't sit at the exact spot you blew he whistle at, put them back and make them sit. I'm finding this far easier with my wcs than the scs who can be b*$€%y obstinate!
Currently we are on a long line as Coral is a hard hunter, brave and self rewards - it will be a long haul but every minute spent now (on a lead and long line) means she can spend longer off lead in the future.
Once Coral has a solid stop and is reliable off lead she will also be going into a rabbit pen. I have access to a pheasant pen and deer in he woods behind the house. I also have access to sheep and a can put her in the barn with them but she will only ever be on a lead close to sheep so I'm less concerned about this at the moment.
Hard lesson for me as I truly thought Coral had a solid stop (could get her to sit up for up to 45 minutes) and recall - yesterday, I learned that the hearing in dogs is the last to develop, which means however much I thought I'd embedded the recall, she doesn't recognise the sequence of pips with out hand signals - which in a wood or game crop is useless!
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What made you think I don't? That's why I said 'one'.
That's why he was classed as 'failed gundog'. That's why Bernie the beautiful was a failed sniffer dog. As the special branch handler said 'We tried everything.' That's why I love spaniels not adding machines. But if you have a foolproof method of training Helen please tell HM services not me. ;)
I wasn't aware HM services worked in areas relating to livestock and game which is probably why their methods didn't work which is Helen's point re training using specific methods relating to game
precisely ;)
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Think you've misread the post. Only Bernie was from the constabulary! :police: I think two gamekeepers had had a go with the working cocker. Obviously they both needed Helen! :blink:
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Think you've misread the post. Only Bernie was from the constabulary! :police: I think two gamekeepers had had a go with the working cocker. Obviously they both needed Helen! :blink:
Gamekeepers generally dont have the time to train a dog; most I know run multiple dogs and rely on the young taking their lead from the older dogs, they also tend not to keep dogs with a high prey drive ;) HMP or other agencies and organisations such as search and rescue allow a specific period of time to train dogs, if they are the aking too long and "fail" it diesnt always mean the dog cant be trained!
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Where working dogs are concerned: time to train = money without return on investment!
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I think we're getting a bit off thread here so I'll just finish by saying my point was not every dog can be trained to robotic standards (which is why the rescue world can always provide you with a 'failed' sniffer dog, sheepdog, cattle dog guide dog, assistance dog, tracker dog, gundog etc.) and I personally am quite happy about that. Dogs are individuals. I also worry in welfare terms about the type of training trainers who claim they can get any dog to any standard of behaviour are using. I grew up in Wales where the old fashioned way to stop a sheepworrier was to pen it with a ram. If it survived it never went near sheep again. Job done I guess.
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I don't think anyone is suggesting that ensuring your dog has good/reliable recall makes it a robotic dog - mine have good recall and in no way was it done robotically but by perseverance (and yes my current 3 dogs are all working cockers/sprockers - 2 of which I know were from people who worked all their dogs as none of them were for pets) and a need to ensure my dogs are safe (I live in a city but have lots of green space to run my dogs in but still that green space runs into roads/railway lines/swollen river every so often)
Yes certain working dogs will fail within certain fields but that's usualy becuase they were never suited really for that particular purpose but may be suited for something else
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robots? My spaniels??? Oh that really is funny! :lol2:
Just because I choose to train my dogs to the best of my ability and invest, as Pearly has said and does herself, an awful lot of time doing so it does not make them robots, nor are they ever badly treated while training. You're making an awful lot of assumptions here which leads me to believe that you've not been around modern gun dog trainers who use positive methods.
What would I have done with your untrainable dog Daw? I wouldn't have set him up to fail, I wouldn't put him in situations like pheasant cover. If he was that uncontrollable I would have walked him somewhere else where he wouldn't have been over stimulated like that, or if it was unavoidable he would have been on a long line. :police: :police: :police:
I don't pretend to be the worlds best trainer but I will do my best to ensure a solid recall and stop - in as many situations as I can proof - to keep my dogs safe and under control. Among my dog owning friends that is the norm so I really am incredulous that this seems an excessive amount of training :huh:
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Gosh! :argue:
I bet poor BuryFCA1 is beginning to wish he'd never asked! ;) !!
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I believe my girls are pretty well trained, we'll certainly compared to many I meet on a walk!! They will recall on the whistle and stop/wait if I ask them to in all situations, except if they flushed a rabbit or pheasant out and I wish that I could proof that better. We currently have a rabbit in our rabbit proofed field, no idea how it got in or where it is living but have spotted its poos! The dogs go barmy in there racing around after its scent, but unfortunately it has yet to show itself as would probably make good stop practice!!
As much as possible I avoid heavy game areas or put them back on lead if we go past but would be better to know that I could get them to stop on the whistle instead.
I do have one question though. Do even well trained gundogs still chase a flushed game if you haven't got the stop whistle in in time or do they have no interest in the chase ?
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I believe my girls are pretty well trained, we'll certainly compared to many I meet on a walk!! They will recall on the whistle and stop/wait if I ask them to in all situations, except if they flushed a rabbit or pheasant out and I wish that I could proof that better. We currently have a rabbit in our rabbit proofed field, no idea how it got in or where it is living but have spotted its poos! The dogs go barmy in there racing around after its scent, but unfortunately it has yet to show itself as would probably make good stop practice!!
As much as possible I avoid heavy game areas or put them back on lead if we go past but would be better to know that I could get them to stop on the whistle instead.
I do have one question though. Do even well trained gundogs still chase a flushed game if you haven't got the stop whistle in in time or do they have no interest in the chase ?
I wouldn't let he dogs go racing in the field at the moment - either a long line or under controlled hunting ;)
The short answer to your question is no - a well trained Gundog doesn't chase anything and will stop/sit on flush - as with the springer I mentioned earlier. It really is inspirational to see these dogs at work and I guess it's the difference between pets - where the expectation is a well behaved dog in most situations / avoid situations where they are not trained to deal with them - and working dogs - where they are expected to be trained and behave in a consistent manner.
If the dog flushes *n then it should stop and wait for instruction and to be honest - it shouldn't need the stop whistle at all - it is hours of repetitive training and a bit of genetics that get the dog and handler to this standard! I can't do it without professional advice hence attending training days and 1-2-1 sessions...
* insert from the following: cats, deer, rabbits, hares, pheasants, ducks, mice, squirrels etc....
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You're right, they should eventually be conditioned so their bums hit the floor without a whistle (one day :lol2:) but in the cases of the dogs above - who I think the owners want to get to a stage where they can stop and recall a dog (and in the case of deer in our instance) the stop whistle and recall can be invaluable - and it's probably a level most people want to get to ;)
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You're right, they should eventually be conditioned so their bums hit the floor without a whistle (one day :lol2:) but in the cases of the dogs above - who I think the owners want to get to a stage where they can stop and recall a dog (and in the case of deer in our instance) the stop whistle and recall can be invaluable - and it's probably a level most people want to get to ;)
Yes think you are right. For most - including me, I think it is mainly bunnies, birds and danger ( water etc.) that I need to use stop/recall for.
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Just in time for this thread Teal flushed a Fallow doe up at a very wet and windy Mamhead forest today, amazeballs she only chased for 20yards or so, coming back on recall. I don't know who was surprised the doe or me. All that work on stopping to flushed rabbits has paid off.
Its a pity I am not able to shoot over Teal due to my health I think she would have made a first class gun dog.
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Just in time for this thread Teal flushed a Fallow doe up at a very wet and windy Mamhead forest today, amazeballs she only chased for 20yards or so, coming back on recall. I don't know who was surprised the doe or me. All that work on stopping to flushed rabbits has paid off.
Its a pity I am not able to shoot over Teal due to my health I think she would have made a first class gun dog.
Good girl Teal :D and even better to read you've been out in areas with deer - hope that means you are feeling a lot better?
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Much better than I was thanks Pearly, just not well enough to do a days shooting or beating. I can manage an hour or 2 on flat ground and I will settle for that.
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Bracken only went to Gun dog training a few times and that was when he was only six months, not long enough to for any real training, he's steady around pheasants, rabbits, deer and birds, his recall is excellent he has only given chase once when a deer jumped out in front of us but as soon as the whistle was blown he came straight back! Only thing I can think of was when he was only 16 weeks and started to chase birds I took the time to train him first on line to focus on me and not the birds, then moving on to off lead! So I think there is hope if you teach from an early stage and always be one step ahead of them!
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Cheer up it could be worse. One of my walking mates has an 11 year-old pointer.
He brought the Muntjac back home with him!
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We lived on the West coast of Scotland near Oabn for 20 years, ina natural woodland 14 miles from the nearest town and where surrounded with wildlife, deer, otter pin martens , you name it...ours loved the deer, and would disappear yapping into the woods, fortunately fairly quickly they would either lose the scent or just get tired and follow their own scent home.