Frantic for the scent of a deer

[Helen]

Well I disagree that you can't stop a spaniel chasing a deer 

We were up in the woods last week and heard a commotion and 5 deer being chased by a Golden retriever ran straight in front of us.   Both my 10 12 year old and 15 month old started running and stopped dead to the stop whistle.  The GR's owner was still screaming in the distance for her dog to come back to her.  As for rabbits, Jago is going in the rabbit pen in the next few weeks so we'll see how steady and ingrained his stop whistle is

I agree with Pearly - some gundog training would be beneficial.  It's not only the chasing, it's the danger they place themselves in running through woods when their adrenaline is high.  So many dogs hurt themselves or get run over in the pursuit 

[Patp]

If anything is standing still Miss J is not at all bothered but as soon as they scatter she is on the chase.  Had an eventful weekend at my daughters when one of her goats decided to climb out of their field it was only when I was 6 foot away that she stopped to have her lead put on, however as the cats dont run away as they are used to dogs, she just walked passed them without any reaction!

[rubybella]

I have dabbled in gundog training, including learning the stop whistle. It did work, unless it was to stop going after a pheasant or rabbit and then it was a massive failure! So I get it wasn't fully proofed, but how can you proof it in those situations ? The dog trainer I went to showed me a couple of methods but neither sat comfortably with how I like to train my dogs! My dogs are also both of the sensitive disposition so I have to be careful how I tread.  My girls are so good, responsive and well behaved in every way, apart from if they spot a pheasant or rabbit to chase. We walk along a river daily, past swans, geese, ducks etc and they don't bat an eyelid, we walk through herds of cows, past sheep and horses and they are perfect, but rabbits and pheasants are different!

I would appreciate any top tips which will help, although at nearly 5 and 8 years old I suspect they may beyond retraining in this area ?

[Ben's mum]

I would appreciate any top tips which will help, although at nearly 5 and 8 years old I suspect they may beyond retraining in this area ?

Ben was 6 when we stated doing proper recall training and we were able to completely stop him chasing anything.  He would recall from anything whether it was running or just standing there so I don't think age is a barrier. 
Harry has been more of a challenge as a rescue with a lot of anxiety, it was nearly a year before he was ready to learn basics like sit as he was quite a scared little thing  He will  recall now from everything apart from deer if he actually sees them running, the scent itself is not a problem.  As we walk in Chatsworth which is a deer park we have to be vigilant, carry a long line and plan ahead. I think if you know you don't have a safe recall you do need to take steps to stop it happening again, and if that means walking in some areas on a long line then that's safer for all concerned than your dog chasing after deer. 

[daw]

Off topic maybe but i've never found any recall that worked for pheasant. I once managed to rugby tackle one of my working cockers after he'd been in a covert for 10 minutes deaf to every recall signal- and some pleading involving cheese. When I pounced on him and picked him up his eyes were glazed over. Not sure he knew his own name.

[bizzylizzy]

sure he was in a covert? Maybe he'd been in the pub!! 
Seriously though, - how do you react when the recall hasn't worked? Humphrey's very good, but he's just 9 months now and has started to cock a deaf ear now and again this week. I was advised against repeatedly calling, so have called twice and then gone and fetched him (after a bit of a dance around), but what do you then? I don't like the word "punishment" but I'm always at a bit of a loss to know how to let him know what he's done, or rather not done, isn't acceptable. No TV for a week doesn't work, unfortunately!

[Helen]

put him on a long line bizzylizzy - as for not being able to stop them, don't let them start!   You need to keep them as close to you as possible so you can give them commands.  It's no good when they're 100 yards away and then see a rabbit or a pheasant - you're on a hiding to nothing.   In the woods mine are allowed to run in eyesight and are constantly being recalled, sent off in different directions and stopped.  All walk   I guess we're lucky because on these walks there will be definitely be deer and rabbits (at the right time of day) and possibly game birds so it's proofing them all the time.  Jarv is 10 1/2 and I've never stopped training him!

If they do bolt you need a reliable stop to stop them before they go too far and then won't listen at all.

Daw, if you don't gundog train your working cockers you can't expect them to know how to respond.  All untrained spaniels can be uncontrollable around game.  My 15 month old will be in a rabbit pen in the next few weeks learning to be steady.  He will be expected to stop and sit even when a rabbit is right under his nose or bolting from him.  It can be done.

[daw]

What made you think I don't? That's why I said 'one'.

That's why he was classed as 'failed gundog'. That's why Bernie the beautiful was a failed sniffer dog. As the special branch handler said 'We tried everything.' That's why I love spaniels not adding machines. But if you have a foolproof method of training Helen please tell HM services not me. 

 

[PennyB]

Mine love to chase squirrels but I manage to retrieve them back (my fear is they might do this and run off in front of a car) - as suggested its all about training. I've trained all mine to come back to the whistle (I use an acme 210.5)

[bizzylizzy]

put him on a long line bizzylizzy - as for not being able to stop them, don't let them start!   You need to keep them as close to you as possible so you can give them commands.  It's no good when they're 100 yards away and then see a rabbit or a pheasant - you're on a hiding to nothing.   In the woods mine are allowed to run in eyesight and are constantly being recalled, sent off in different directions and stopped.  All walk   I guess we're lucky because on these walks there will be definitely be deer and rabbits (at the right time of day) and possibly game birds so it's proofing them all the time.  Jarv is 10 1/2 and I've never stopped training him!

If they do bolt you need a reliable stop to stop them before they go too far and then won't listen at all.

I don't have a problem (yet) with running off, Humphrey's always close by, he has a regular "spurt"!on the trail of a GSD that has always walked the same way 10'minutesmahead of us ,but one blast on the whistle and he's on his way back, no problems there. The cocking the deaf ear bit, is usually while he's having a bit of sniff and I want to call him to heel, then he'll stop, look up,and then and carry on (unless I walk off, in which case he'll follow) and its in these situations when I'm not sure what I should be doing. (usually a stern word and the lead goes back on, but I'm not sure if that's the answer). I know lots of you use long leads but I just can't get along with them and there'd be no way I couldmhold him anyway if he bolted on tne end of a 15 foot line. Its diverting a bit from the OP's question but I'm sure I'm not alone with this "adolescence" problem, so thought it worth a mention.

[rubybella]

Helen - in the rabbit pen do you hold his lead or his he loose ? If he does go after a rabbit what happens to him ? The punishment is the bit that I don't like!

[PennyB]

What made you think I don't? That's why I said 'one'.

That's why he was classed as 'failed gundog'. That's why Bernie the beautiful was a failed sniffer dog. As the special branch handler said 'We tried everything.' That's why I love spaniels not adding machines. But if you have a foolproof method of training Helen please tell HM services not me. 

 

I wasn't aware HM services worked in areas relating to livestock and game which is probably why their methods didn't work which is Helen's point re training using specific methods relating to game

[Pearly]

I had the privilege of spending yesterday with one of the most respected gun dog trainers in the UK.  At the end of the day, he demonstrated a young (18 months) springer in the rabbit pen.

She was off lead. She hunted beautifully. She stopped on all but one rabbit flush.  There was no punishment just reward and on the one that the dog didn't stop - by 2ft - she was put back into a sit position at the point he'd blown the whistle.

To teach a reliable whistle takes hours of training.  Every walk should be a training opportunity - walk a few paces, blow the whistle ans if your dog doesn't sit at the exact spot you blew he whistle at, put them back and make them sit.  I'm finding this far easier with my wcs than the scs who can be b*$€%y obstinate!

Currently we are on a long line as Coral is a hard hunter, brave and self rewards - it will be a long haul but every minute spent now (on a lead and long line) means she can spend longer off lead in the future. 

Once Coral has a solid stop and is reliable off lead she will also be going into a rabbit pen.  I have access to a pheasant pen and deer in he woods behind the house.  I also have access to sheep and a can put her in the barn with them but she will only ever be on a lead close to sheep so I'm less concerned about this at the moment.

Hard lesson for me as I truly thought Coral had a solid stop (could get her to sit up for up to 45 minutes) and recall - yesterday, I learned that the hearing in dogs is the last to develop, which means however much I thought I'd embedded the recall, she doesn't recognise the sequence of pips with out hand signals - which in a wood or game crop is useless!

[Helen]

What made you think I don't? That's why I said 'one'.

That's why he was classed as 'failed gundog'. That's why Bernie the beautiful was a failed sniffer dog. As the special branch handler said 'We tried everything.' That's why I love spaniels not adding machines. But if you have a foolproof method of training Helen please tell HM services not me. 

 

I wasn't aware HM services worked in areas relating to livestock and game which is probably why their methods didn't work which is Helen's point re training using specific methods relating to game

precisely 

[daw]

Think you've misread the post. Only Bernie was from the constabulary! I think two gamekeepers had had a go with the working cocker. Obviously they both needed Helen!