Author Topic: I need reassurance again......  (Read 4910 times)

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Offline Leo0106

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I need reassurance again......
« on: November 10, 2017, 09:18:36 AM »
Hi All,
In need of a little reassurance as Leo is really testing me the last couple of days.
Now before I talk about what's going on, i would like to emphasise that  we have made so much progress compared to a few months ago... I keep trying to remind myself of this but I feel that has an effect on my tolerance levels when things do go wrong.
Id also like to say I contacted top dogs last night to try and access a new behaviourist.. also planning on asking the vet to run some blood tests to make sure there's nothing underlying going on.. But if anyone could advise on the below then id really appreciate it.

Biting.. as always -
Now we used to suffer from 'puppy attacks' atleast 10 times a day, everytime we sat down, everytime I looked at my phone, basically everytime my attention isn't on him. I now only suffer s puppy attack maybe 3 times in a week but when he goes.. he goes.. full on barking, nipping, snarling etc. The triggers are random, often when he's tired and I stop him from doing something naughty. But sometimes just if you bend down to stroke him! I worry that he is a little adverse to touch at times. But he often asks to be loved and touched too. I'm trying to just barrier myself from him when this happens, I put my office chair or something in between us and avoid all eye contact until he calms down.

Growling- again.. something that I feel is relatèd to being adverse to touch, putting his harness on without a bribe or getting him out of the car after a walk often results in him growling at me, and if I don't back off quick enough he will nip. Again I'm ignoring this as much as I can and just removing myself from the situation and attempting again after a few minutes.

We are still having issues with attention seeking but this is far more manageable.

I do sometimes feel he is anxious. Which is odd because from an outside perspective he is one confident ýoung dog but is there such a thing as an anxious extrovert?!

Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: I need reassurance again......
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2017, 02:21:30 PM »
Its a bit of a long shot but I wonder if its worth looking into the possibility of a reaction to food additives? It does sound as if advice from a behavourist is the best way  to go but sometimes food can contribute to hyper behaviour, so might be worth considering at the same time.



Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: I need reassurance again......
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2017, 03:36:00 PM »
Hi, you've mentioned that he has been limping and also yelped when the vet went to manipulate his back leg.  I wonder whether his anxiety might be linked to pain?  Jumping out of or being lifted out of the car may hurt his leg/shoulder.  Similarly with outing a harness on.  What's he like if you just clip on a collar?  Maybe don't offer to stroke him unless he approaches you for attention and see whether this makes any difference.  And perhaps get your vet to do a full body check for any painful areas.  Cockers seem to suffer quite badly from a condition called IOHC (have a google for some info), and I would think that this is quite painful.  Not saying that this is the issue with your dog, but may be worth excluding pain as a reason for his aggression before you get in a behaviourist.
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline bmthmark

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Re: I need reassurance again......
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2017, 03:40:37 PM »
Checking the food is a good idea. What food is he currently on?

From what you have said he seems to be triggered from being touched. I would definitely get him checked over by the vet as this maybe his way of saying don't touch as something isn't right.

I maybe completely wrong and he might be just being a naughty pup.

Mine is a year old and he goes into his mad/naughty mode as soon as he wakes. I think mine is because he has a build up of energy and needs to release it.
After a walk he calms down.
How often do you walk him? also how old is he?

Offline Leo0106

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Re: I need reassurance again......
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2017, 04:55:06 PM »
Hi all, yes I am increasingly beginning to wonder whether pain is a trigger. Interestingly in the mornings he is the most relaxed pup in the world even though he should have loads of energy. It appears to be nearing the end of the day that he does go bitey, if he Does, as I say, it has got far better but I think it makes me realise more now that there are obvious triggers... not just being a bitey pup through play etc.

He's on wainwrights salmon and potatoes adult kibble, we've had a fair few problems with his tummy and finding a kibble that suited this took ages so I do hope it's not that haha.

Bmthmark he has 3 walks a day, these range from 30 to 45 minutes depending on how quick I need to get round! He's just turned a year old

Thankyou emilyoliver I will look into IOHC

Offline bmthmark

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Re: I need reassurance again......
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2017, 07:34:33 AM »
I would get him checked out at the vet first.
I'm not sure if it's just mine but after a long sleep he is running around everywhere, he will be like this until his walk.
Maybe he still has pain in his tummy.

It's a tricky one

Offline Gazrob

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Re: I need reassurance again......
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2017, 11:22:33 AM »
My dog doesn't bite at all. Only when we are playing. Definitely take him to the vet asap. This is not normal behaviour.

Offline Emma0Milo

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Re: I need reassurance again......
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2017, 07:12:04 PM »
My Milo sounds a bit similar. He’s just over one now too and he doesn’t really bite anymore but tonight he has had a late run about compared to normal and he’s kinda gone for my 4 year old daughter. When I say gone for her, he’s wagging his tail and barking and putting teeth to her, not biting, obviously I’ve put myself between them and then removed him from the room. He was making a lot of noise, He’s obviously overtired now and reacting in an unpleasant way.
He’s always been a very bitey puppy and has pretty much stopped but we do have ‘episodes’ very occasionally and it’s generally aimed at the children. Don’t know if this is because he thinks they are playmates or not.
You said hes very relaxed in the mornings and Milo is just the same, still half asleep for a quite a while whilst we get sorted and do school run.
I know I’m not much help but I think with perseverance you will get there. And like others have said if he’s in pain then perhaps a visit to the vets would be a good idea [emoji1360][emoji3]


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Offline Leo0106

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Re: I need reassurance again......
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2017, 07:18:43 PM »
Hi all, thanks for all the support. We are going back to the vets on weds so will be asking them to do a full body check to rule anything out.
We had Leo's first full day of scentwork training today (9-3) I was dreading it as know he plays up when he is overtired but he has completely exceeded himself, he was a model student, had a few naps on my lap, played nicely and completed all the searches he was asked to do.
My trainer also completed a quick physical check over of him to see if he reacted and although not as severe as he reacted with the vet, he did turn to react when she touched around his back legs. Really important for me now to get the vet to triple check him over, and if there's nothing wrong, engage in some intense t-touch training to allow him to accept touch!

Offline lynnemcneil

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Re: I need reassurance again......
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2017, 10:48:30 AM »
Hi all, thanks for all the support. We are going back to the vets on weds so will be asking them to do a full body check to rule anything out.
We had Leo's first full day of scentwork training today (9-3) I was dreading it as know he plays up when he is overtired but he has completely exceeded himself, he was a model student, had a few naps on my lap, played nicely and completed all the searches he was asked to do.
My trainer also completed a quick physical check over of him to see if he reacted and although not as severe as he reacted with the vet, he did turn to react when she touched around his back legs. Really important for me now to get the vet to triple check him over, and if there's nothing wrong, engage in some intense t-touch training to allow him to accept touch!




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Offline lynnemcneil

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Re: I need reassurance again......
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2017, 11:02:59 AM »
Hi all, thanks for all the support. We are going back to the vets on weds so will be asking them to do a full body check to rule anything out.
We had Leo's first full day of scentwork training today (9-3) I was dreading it as know he plays up when he is overtired but he has completely exceeded himself, he was a model student, had a few naps on my lap, played nicely and completed all the searches he was asked to do.
My trainer also completed a quick physical check over of him to see if he reacted and although not as severe as he reacted with the vet, he did turn to react when she touched around his back legs. Really important for me now to get the vet to triple check him over, and if there's nothing wrong, engage in some intense t-touch training to allow him to accept touch!




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My Archie also sounds very similar, now 9 months, he’s always been a very bitey dog and I can relate to the persistent ‘shark attacks’ which happened on a daily basis! He’ll still have his moments, usually every few days but they’re not as severe now. We also have the growling/nipping problem, which can happen when we just pat him, like you say, it’s as if he’s averse to sometimes getting touched. Very often it’s also in the evening when he’s tired. I put this down to his resource guarding though as sometimes they can guard their body. This might also be the issue with the car. Our Behaviorist said that he does this because he’s an insecure dog, which is what you were thinking. We were also advised to use the crate more so he goes into it now when we’re around just to rest as he never stops if we’re around. He also goes in it to calm down if he’s having a shark attack moment. Definitely get the Behaviorist back in for some advice. We’ve been using the training advice for about a month now, two steps forward and ten back sometimes, and soul destroying as well sometimes. I do think he’s getting better slowly! We will get there though. Remember they are still puppies, just behaving as adolescent teenagers just now. Good luck. [emoji240]


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Offline Leo0106

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Re: I need reassurance again......
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2017, 01:05:23 PM »
Thankyou lynnemcnell that's very reassuring to hear. In my heart of hearts I do feel that a lot of this is down to adolescence however I never want to blame it on his age in case he never grows out of it!

Offline Marley_14

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Re: I need reassurance again......
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2017, 12:06:35 PM »
Hi, did you have any luck at the vets?

I know it's been a few weeks since you posted but just wanted to pick up on your question about having an 'anxious extrovert' dog and add a few of our experiences with Marley, as I know it helped me to know I wasn't the only one struggling when things were really bad here!

We rehomed Marley from Dogs Trust just over 2 years ago when he was around a year old and after a few months he began to have episodes of aggression - growling, snarling, snapping, making weird whiny noises and a couple of bites. We had the Dogs Trust behaviourist out to see us and offer some advice. They came up with 2 main things: firstly, he's a guarder; secondly, that he's ambivalent, which sound a bit like anxious extrovert.

With the ambivalent thing he gets very excited, gets himself right in the middle of a situation and then realises that he's not at all comfortable with the position he's found himself in and lashes out. For example - jumping up at visitors that he doesn't know that well because he's excited and then not being happy when they interact with him. We've had to do a lot of watching and learning his body language and we've tried to teach him that it's OK to take himself away from a situation he's uncomfortable with and go off to his safe space in his crate (we're lucky that he was crate trained by his original owners). He gets ignored if he grumbles and time out in the kitchen if he snarls or snaps. He's getting much better at moving away when he's uncomfortable rather than reacting and we're getting much better at spotting when he's uncomfortable and asking him to move away before he has a chance to react.
He's 3 now and we still always have to give him time out to have a nap/settle down in his crate when we are staying with friends/relatives or if we have guests. If we don't, he doesn't choose to settle and relax on his own, so he gets over excited and over tired and more likely to react badly if he feels uncomfortable.

In terms of touch, he hates being groomed with a passion. I chose to  muzzle train him for this reason and he now wears a basket muzzle when he gets brushed, trimmed, bathed, and when he sees the vet (plus squeezy cheese to keep him standing still). I often carry both muzzle and cheese with me if we are going anywhere unfamiliar just in case, particularly when he won't have the option of taking himself to his crate, although I rarely need to use it.

For touch desensitisation, we were recommended the bucket game (google 'the bucket game for dogs'), which is all about the dog choosing to participate in the interaction. When we initially tried this, I didn't have much luck (hence using a muzzle and oodles of squeezy cheese) but I've since read 'When pigs fly' by Jane Killion and I might give it another go now I've got a better understanding of shaping behaviours.

Hoping you've had a smoother ride over the last few weeks!

Offline Leo0106

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Re: I need reassurance again......
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2017, 07:36:35 AM »
Hi Marley_14 (sorry don't know your name)
Many many thanks for your response, I am pleased to say with a lot of work I am finally beginning to have some success. And as you suggested. The word ambivalent completely sums up my boy. It's funny because I work with children with attachment issues and behavioural problems and when reflecting and transferring that into dog body language has made me realise how ambivalent he really is. He's not the avoidant dog that will hide away when she's, he fronts it out.

We did go to the vets and all was well however I am going to take him back in the new year to get his hips scanned as I believe he may have mild hip dysplasia after observing him closely over the past few weeks.

We have our behaviourist out and unfortunately overtiredness is the main trigger to all our problems. He is not just a dog that will sleep when tired. He's turns into a trantruming toddler! Which brings out the worst in him.

So the behaviourist knows him very well (she's been our trainer since 12 weeks old) And she has given me a tremendous amount of games to try to support his a)high prey drive and the need to use his teeth on something other than me!  B) his manners c) his ability to chill out and calm down when it isn't time for play and d) his impulse control. 

I'm pleased to say that, although it is still very much a working progress, we are having some real success. He now has a boundary mat which is absolutely loves using. And with a bit of support from me he is calming down when over tired far quicker than he ever did.  It does tend to mean that he falls asleep in the lounge in the evening with his harness on but I know if I work hard this won't be forever.

I've just had the most successful weekend with him I think I've ever had which was a huge confidence boost!! So we are defiantly getting somewhere. 

I will certainly have a look at the 'when pigs fly' book as I enjoy a good read!

Many thanks again

Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: I need reassurance again......
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2017, 05:26:42 PM »
What a great update! 👍