Author Topic: Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?  (Read 5449 times)

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Offline Minky

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Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?
« on: December 13, 2017, 09:00:09 PM »
Apologies for the very long post but I’d be really grateful for help on this please. We are seriously considering whether or not we can keep our pup, as his behaviour is putting strain on us as a family and I’m feeling completely suffocated.

We are a family of four (me, hubbie, daughter 13 and son 9). Our household is relatively calm and we consider ourselves reasonably intelligent and well-read. I work part time from home.

Our golden male show cocker is now 19.5 weeks old. We got him when he was 9 weeks. He is walked twice a day. The first is in the morning and is about 30 mins, usually off-lead and a 20-25 minute walk later in the day (usually early evening). In addition we spend a little time doing mind/brain games with him. In between he has plenty of undisturbed rest and sleep time.

He shows a number of signs of aggression and also separation anxiety, which have been evident from the beginning.

What we don’t know is what is ‘normal’, as the 3 trainers who’ve been over to the house have said he’s a particularly feisty cocker (although none have actually witnessed his behaviour). He has also completed puppy classes.

To break down things:
He bites when I put on a lead and harness, (this process is stressful, frustrating and my hands and arms are covered in scratches and marks)*, bites when you sit to stroke and cuddle (does this immediately), still pulls at shoes and the clothes we are wearing, bites when being (gently) towel dried and most recently bit the groomer when she touched his paws (first time there) and the vet when being handled.
The vet has advised that we seek help from a behaviourist and is concerned that things will get worse, not better.

*no one else in the household is brave enough to put the harness and lead on him.

In addition he often bites unprovoked. For example my 9 year old may be sitting at the kitchen table and our pup just comes up and bites him - from nowhere! This isn’t playful, or mouthing. If my son has a friend over to play,  I worry that the dog will exhibit this behaviour spontaneously. I appreciate that i could separate the dog from the kids, but this really isn’t a solution - it just masks the problem.

We try and replace biting with chew toys which make no difference, nor does yelping, saying ouch, time out or any other suggested methods of distraction.

We have been consistent in our approach so we are rather stumped as to whether or not this is normal behaviour. We have numerous friends with puppies or dogs and none of them have had these issues to the extent we have.

We do reward good behaviour and give treats where appropriate.

With regard to separation, he is crate trained at night and other than the first couple of weeks of crying at night, he happily goes into his crate (which is downstairs in the tv room) about 10:30pm and we don’t hear hear from him in the morning until around 6:30am.

He follows me around the downstairs of the house, and when I go upstairs (we have a gate on the stairs), or go into a room he’s not allowed in, he cries and barks until I come down/out. I’ve tried giving him toys, filled kongs etc and nothing makes any difference.

I also got a puppy cam after suspecting him being unhappy about being left home alone. In increments of 15 minutes I left him in his crate, with a few toys, stuffed kong and the tv on. Upon return I hear him barking, and now can see him on the camera. By 1.5 hours, he is barking, pacing in the crate, digging in it and biting the crate and also himself. He looks really distressed.

He’s only properly calm for the first hour in the crate. Admittedly if I didn’t have the camera, I wouldn’t know what’s going on, but my suspicions are that he is really anxious about being left alone, despite being happy to go into his crate at night.

Unfortunately everything considered, I haven’t bonded with him at all. My husband is really trying to have a relationship, and my son isn’t at all attached. I think my son sees him as a hindrance and sees how stressed I’ve become since getting the pup. Only my daughter has developed a relationship with him however she is at school all day and has lots of weekend commitments. My sister pops over to our house throughout the week and she too has a relationship with him).

I wondered if anyone else has been through something similar and come out the other side. I appreciate that every situation is different but before we start enlisting the help of a behaviourist and haemorrhaging even more money, i am keen to get an understanding from other Cocker parents. Thanks!

Offline Pearly

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Re: Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2017, 10:24:48 PM »
Hello and welcome to COL

you’ve definitely come to the right place to find “kindred spirits”! Cockers are known as cockerdiles and Velcro dogs for good reason  ;)

I have 4 Cockers.  Each totally different from each other.  3 from pups and one an older “rescue” who was given to us.  My first cocker was a difficult puppy.  Needy and over excited but didn’t know what to do with that excitement.  It was only after joining COL that I realised she wasn’t getting enough sleep and didn’t volunteer to have naps (pup 2 was a dream in comparison - she still goes off to her bed for naps!).  Pups at 20 weeks old need at least 18 hours sleep a day.......

Pups can be very hard work.  There is light at the end of the tunnel - honest!

Random “biting” is attention seeking - in a dogs life, there is no such thing as bad attention, just attention so being told off fits with that........time outs help as, and you already know this, Cockers really don’t like to be ignored! Put him out of the room and when you are ready, allow him back but on your terms.  At 20 weeks he is still very young and you have a window now to shape his behaviour to the way that you want.

Where abouts are you?  There may be others on here nearby that can help or can recommend a positive behaviourist - the last thing you should do with an anxious dog is to be told to dominate it or use aversive methods (bottle rattles, water sprays etc) as his behaviour will exacerbate rapidly.

Others will be along with more help and advice.  If you are considering rehoming him, which you haven’t mentioned, then please contact his breeder first and if they won’t take him then one of the Spaniel rescues such as Cocker and English Springer Spaniel Rescue (CAESSR) who understand the breed and their idiosyncrasies and will place him with the best home possible.

Good luck with your boy - would be good to know his name and have some photos. 

Jayne
X

Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2017, 07:39:41 AM »
Hi and welcome! Don‘t have anymore to add to the excellent advice there from Pearly, particulary re attention seeking. Fortunately Humphrey is, by cocker standards, a pretty quiet dog but did have his moments as a puppy and I also found that quietly putting him out of the room, without giving him eye contact or speaking was very effective. There will be lots of COL‘ers along soon who have similar  experiences and can offer good advice and moral support to  help you get through this stage. Your little one IS still very young and I‘m sure, with the right training, you will get through it. In the meantime, stick with us, don‘t be afraid to let off steam here if it helps (and it does! ;) and do keep us posted! Good Luck!
P.S. Pictures of puppies, even naughty ones, keep us happy!  :lol2:

Offline David Morgan

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Re: Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2017, 08:38:21 AM »
Just to echo Pearly's comments.

We have three show cockers - they are all black and look the same, but have very different personalities; even though two are from the same litter. Our new, 8 month old, puppy bit a lot until he was about 4 or 5 months old. We were expecting it, but it still hurts as their teeth are very sharp. As he got his adult teeth the biting stopped, though it has started again recently, but now it is just very gentle, affectionate, mouthing and doesn't hurt at all. He will still chew things to pieces; we lost the first set of Christmas lights. We have found plastic bottles to be the best release for his chewing needs - I flatten them for recycling and found they make great, cheap, toys in that state. On the whole, cockers are very gentle, friendly dogs. There are some exceptions, but few and far between and you will need to wait until adulthood to really know how they turn out. I would say it's not fair on the little tyke to judge him at 4 months.

Yelping when they bite is not just a "distraction" it is the same signal their mum would use to indicate that they are going too far. We watched our puppy bite and pull the ears of our older dogs who put up with it; at least, up to a point. Adult dogs also bite back occasionally to teach the pup a lesson. You can do this by pinching the puppy a little - be careful not to really hurt.

As Pearly said, puppies need a lot of sleep. Play when the puppy wants to play, but otherwise just leave him sleep. Walks should be limited to 5 minutes per month of age and no more than twice a day. For you that means 20 minutes maximum. You will not tire the puppy with this - he is a cocker - but you don't want to damage his developing bones.

I too had scratches and bite marks and even an infected thumb where needle teeth had drawn blood - they are now a distant memory.

Offline poptart

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Re: Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2017, 09:26:51 AM »
Yikes, you sound at the end of your tether, Minky. Sending hugs. :'(

I'm wondering why you've been through 3 trainers in such a short time. And now the vet recommends a behaviourist? This sounds like more than a run of the mill problem to me.

It's concerning that you don't feel bonded with him. I hope you can find a solution to this soon.

Offline Londongirl

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Re: Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2017, 10:35:54 AM »
Just to say I didn’t bond with Henry at all in the first few months. I found him much more difficult than expected and was just fed up with the disruption, and the biting and chewing and constant need for attention. Things really changed when he hit about 5 months old and I found I started to bond with him then. Before then I was going through the motion for the sake of the pup and the rest of the family who adored him instantly. So don’t feel that you’ll never bond with your dog even if you’ve had a rough start.
Rachael (me) and Henry (him)


Offline David Morgan

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Re: Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2017, 10:45:19 AM »
Curious thing about the bonding - it was love at first sight for me and my wife with all the dogs. We don't mind the attention, that's why we have dogs, but the need for constant vigilance - in case they poo or pee or chew something they shouldn't or eat something dangerous - can be wearying. 

Offline bmthmark

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Re: Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2017, 12:02:12 PM »
I can relate to a lot of what you have said, especially the separation aspect.

The first few months was an absolute nightmare for me  >:D, however trust me things will get better as your pup matures  ;).
Mine would not sleep and would cry all night, when I say cry I mean barking, whining, scratching for hours on end. This time last year I was literally a walking zombie. In my mind I thought what have I done, I cannot continue like this. This forum was a blessing, as I picked up lots of great advice and I also realised that this is only temporary as he was still so young. Now he is older (14 months) he really is a good boy and i'm so pleased I stuck with him.

With regards to the separation aspect. Mine hated being left, he would cry, scratch the carpet and be very upset. After advice from this forum I did the following:
- Did lots of short leaving times. E.g Left for 1 minute and came back, left for 5 minutes came back, left for 30 seconds and came back. Slowly increasing the times.
- Everytime I left I would give him a treat, this made him realise that me leaving is a good thing.
- Left him with lots of toys.
- Left radio on.
- When I leave I try and do it as quickly as possible so its not such a big deal.

Mine now seems to be happy to be left  :D. I also removed my camera as I felt I was watching him all the time so it was making me go mad  >:D. But when I come back he seems to be very excited but no noises.

With regards to the following, this is completely normal and very common in Cockers. They love people and he just loves being with you. Mine follows me literally everywhere, I know it does get frustrating at times but its only because he likes your company.

Things will get easier for you - trust me

Good luck

Offline sodpot2000

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Re: Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2017, 02:02:24 PM »
Lots of good advice for you already, to which I will just add a few things from personal experience.

My old girl Sophie ('the Sodpot') didn't get her nickname for nothing. They all have individual characters and we have to work with them to bring out the good and control the less desirable. When you have done that, it is enormously satisfying for you and the dog.

A lot of dogs are very sensitive about people touching, particularly their front feet. Sophie's front paws were hypersensitive and so we always had to be careful how they were handled as she would make her objections clear.

Check what you are feeding your pup, both in treats and main meals. Sophie was (when young) particularly susceptible to artificial colours and additives which would turn her into a bitey demon. Once we sorted out her diet she was much happier.

As pups, cockers can try the patience of the best of us. As a breed, they are needy and contrary and much too bright for their own good. That is what makes them such a joy to have.

Don't forget that your pup is also trying to figure out where he is and who everyone is. A large busy family takes some sorting out in a puppy brain, so he will need you to cut him a bit of slack too. It is very rare for dogs to show unprovoked aggression (from an evolutionary point of view there is no profit to it). We often struggle because we cannot see the cause. Usually it is feeling frightened or threatened. You may not see something in that way and so we all struggle sometimes to see what has caused a particular reaction because we don't know how the world appears through a pair of cocker puppy eyes!

Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2017, 02:18:03 PM »
Lots of good advice for you already, to which I will just add a few things from personal experience.

My old girl Sophie ('the Sodpot') didn't get her nickname for nothing. They all have individual characters and we have to work with them to bring out the good and control the less desirable. When you have done that, it is enormously satisfying for you and the dog.

A lot of dogs are very sensitive about people touching, particularly their front feet. Sophie's front paws were hypersensitive and so we always had to be careful how they were handled as she would make her objections clear.

Check what you are feeding your pup, both in treats and main meals. Sophie was (when young) particularly susceptible to artificial colours and additives which would turn her into a bitey demon. Once we sorted out her diet she was much happier.

As pups, cockers can try the patience of the best of us. As a breed, they are needy and contrary and much too bright for their own good. That is what makes them such a joy to have.

Don't forget that your pup is also trying to figure out where he is and who everyone is. A large busy family takes some sorting out in a puppy brain, so he will need you to cut him a bit of slack too. It is very rare for dogs to show unprovoked aggression (from an evolutionary point of view there is no profit to it). We often struggle because we cannot see the cause. Usually it is feeling frightened or threatened. You may not see something in that way and so we all struggle sometimes to see what has caused a particular reaction because we don't know how the world appears through a pair of cocker puppy eyes!

Good advice 👍

Offline ips

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Re: Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2017, 02:53:53 PM »
Lots of good advice for you already, to which I will just add a few things from personal experience.

My old girl Sophie ('the Sodpot') didn't get her nickname for nothing. They all have individual characters and we have to work with them to bring out the good and control the less desirable. When you have done that, it is enormously satisfying for you and the dog.

A lot of dogs are very sensitive about people touching, particularly their front feet. Sophie's front paws were hypersensitive and so we always had to be careful how they were handled as she would make her objections clear.

Check what you are feeding your pup, both in treats and main meals. Sophie was (when young) particularly susceptible to artificial colours and additives which would turn her into a bitey demon. Once we sorted out her diet she was much happier.

As pups, cockers can try the patience of the best of us. As a breed, they are needy and contrary and much too bright for their own good. That is what makes them such a joy to have.

Don't forget that your pup is also trying to figure out where he is and who everyone is. A large busy family takes some sorting out in a puppy brain, so he will need you to cut him a bit of slack too. It is very rare for dogs to show unprovoked aggression (from an evolutionary point of view there is no profit to it). We often struggle because we cannot see the cause. Usually it is feeling frightened or threatened. You may not see something in that way and so we all struggle sometimes to see what has caused a particular reaction because we don't know how the world appears through a pair of cocker puppy eyes!

Good post 👍
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Minky

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Re: Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2017, 06:48:02 AM »
Thank you everyone for your words of advice and reassurance. I really appreciate you taking the time to comment - It’s good to know I’m not alone!

Offline Ben's mum

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Re: Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2017, 08:13:45 AM »
You could have been describing our first cocker Ben, he was a nightmare pup. He was our first cocker and although both me and my husband had grown up with dogs we always had collie crosses and a cocker was a complete shock.
I actually called in a behaviourist at 12 weeks because i thought he was vicious.

I spent weeks thinking what have we done, and didn't actually realise how fond of him I was until he cut his nose on some glass in the park and I sobbed because he was hurt  ph34r 

You have been given good advice already, has anyone mentioned Top Barks? If you can get to see him it will be so worth your while.

What I wanted to add that despite being a revolting puppy who put me off puppies completely ! Ben turned into a complete cuddle monster, he always kept his grumbly noises putting his harness on, but it was just noise, but he became loving, cuddly and I adored him and we had 14 years of joy with him so if you can get through this stage it is so worth it. Good luck and hang in there xx

Offline phoenix

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Re: Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2017, 01:05:05 PM »
Like Bens mum, I stuck it out, but my children are adults.   I may have had a different reaction if I had bought the lovely pup to be a companion with youngsters . The lab and springer we had before were perfect with people.    Bobby met everyone with me saying. ' don't stare at him, no sudden touching'.   I too was the only one to be patient enough to get him on the lead or in the car.  He had to do everything by himself!   We had to ensure that everyone else got in the car first, or he would guard it and go ballistic.  He improved massively , and I loved him to bits when I understood his brain. I'm sure there is a cocker 'special needs' gene,  like autism?
This forum saved our relationship,  no doubt about that. Tears aplenty. Rows with husband about training method.

If you can't cope with this,  no-one will criticise you for putting the dogs interest first, ie following our advice for rehoming him to a proper organisation. I think you should tell the breeder, you doubtless paid a lot of money out. But I don't know whether they would rehome him as carefully, if at  all.
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.

Offline Leo0106

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Re: Normal puppy, Cockerdile or genuine aggression?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2017, 06:34:19 PM »
I'm sure there is a cocker 'special needs' gene,  like autism?



When talking about Leo to anyone I always refer to him as autistic with ADHD... obsessive, compulsive, addicted to routine, high functioning and a complete whirlwind  :005: