Author Topic: Snapping Spaniel  (Read 3502 times)

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Offline C_phillips

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Snapping Spaniel
« on: January 18, 2018, 03:13:46 PM »
Hi all,

I've posted on here a few times (not so much lately) about my Cocker Spaniel, Jake (now 18 months old!).

The last year, he has developed a nasty habit of food guarding, space guarding and snapping when uncomfortable.

We have been working with a great behaviourist and there seems to be 2 factors to this aggression:

Anxiety
Lack of respect

So to combat this, we have been working on managing his anxiety through positive reinforcement, teaching him to 'relax' (not easy for a Cocker!) and allowing him to eat dinner in peace etc.
For the second part, we have introduced more boundaries in to the house (no more sofa jumping!) and encourage him to lie on his bed when feeling uncomfortable, that sort of thing.

The good news is, it seems to be working and he seems much more relaxed and the snapping incidents have got a lot less frequent - but its still not perfect (every couple of days rather than every day!).

However, today while on the field he had some leaves on him and as I went to brush them off he turned round and snapped.

 To me, the snapping when getting leaves brushed off him is down to a lack of respect and a learned behaviour. He doesn't particually like being brushed - and when I brush him he has learned that by snapping I will not do it anymore.

Therefore we are trying to teach him that even if he snaps, the thing still happens. The other day he had a twig in his ear at home, i went to get it, got snapped at - and kicked him out (Behaviourist reccomendation). After a time out, I invited him back in and got the twig out no problem. This was definitely progress.

Our biggest concerns are that if myself and my partner start a family, will he fit into a household with a child.

My question to you guys is: Have any of you ever had similar experiences with your Spaniel? What did you do/ What do you do currently? Is there hope for little Jake just by reducing his anxiety and with boundary work? There is no corrective discipline in this programme, which is great if it works! But I still find it hard to understand that when he snaps - his only punishment is a time out with the door closed.When he comes back in, he's happy as anything!
Owner of Jake, the fearful-reactive Spaniel.
Read about our journey with Jake:
SnappySpaniel.Wordpress.com

Offline Londongirl

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Re: Snapping Spaniel
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2018, 03:32:23 PM »
Personally, the idea of a dog having 'respect' doesn't really chime with me. I'm not sure what your behaviourist means by that. Others here will have had more experience than me with the issues you describe, but as a general observation, I think what you want is for the dog to trust you and have confidence in your decisions. That is about building a relationship, a two-way street, rather than your dog respecting you as a superior being! I hope that's what your behaviourist is trying to achieve. The word 'respect' suggests old-fashioned ideas of dominance.

In any given situation when my dog behaves in a way I don't want, I try to look at it objectively and just what happened in that moment, not projecting any of my feelings or assumptions on the dog. With the incident you described today with the leaves: what was your dog doing when your hand came towards him? Was it a situation where you took him by surprise? While you were thinking 'I'll just brush off those leaves' what was your dog thinking? Probably about something else entirely. How did you approach him with your hand? My dog has none of issues you describe but would still shy away from my hand if we were in a complex environment like the park, where he was dealing with lots of stimuli, and I suddenly reached out for him and he didn't know why.

With the boundaries etc in the home, I agree that will help, but again not because of 'respect' but because a nervous dog will appreciate understanding exactly what is expected of him. If you have rules, your reactions are going to be more predictable for him, because you will be more consistent. This will help him relax, if he isn't always wondering what is and isn't allowed and what your reaction might be to, for example, him jumping on the sofa. What we think of as rules he sees as consistency: if he offers a certain behaviour X, your reaction will always be Y.

I hope that makes sense. I think you're definitely on the right path. I find I make the most progress with my dog when I remember to observe carefully what is happening in any given situation and try to put myself in my dogs shoes (paws??) rather than impose what I think is happening on my interpretation of a situation.
 
Rachael (me) and Henry (him)


Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: Snapping Spaniel
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2018, 06:35:12 PM »
I have to agree with the last post particularly in considering your approach. My dog hasn‘t ever snapped at me but he, and my previous dog, (not a cocker ), will shy away and look very wary if I approach head on with my hand above his head, he doesn‘t like being patted on the head for instance, so If I‘m removing brambles, wiping paws etc etc, I try to bring my hand in from underneath or from the side. I can remember last year having to stoop down to my dog‘s level for some reason, I looked up and the sun was behind my OH and it suddenly occured to me how the world and people, can look quite threatening from that angle. Might  just be worth considering ,  if you haven‘t already....
Best of luck!  :D

Offline Pearly

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Re: Snapping Spaniel
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2018, 10:29:23 PM »
Jake.

I so identify with what you’ve written! Pearl will be 7 in April and is still anxious and still snappy and still defiant.  She’s also fear reactive which makes it very hard to train her.

Most days she bumbles along quite happily.  At OH house she spends most of her day mousing, outside and will not come in when called, it’s only if I put my “don’t mess with me Lady” voice on that she actually pays attention and will often stand with all four legs stretched rigid as if she’s about to launch an attack.  At this point I generally ignore her, walk off and shut the door.

She is very defiant.  If she’s on the settee and told to get off it has to be verbally, to try to move her will result in being snapped at.  The solution is that she’s not allowed on there and on every attempt to get on, is promptly told to get off (often 3 times  >:D).  At my house she now lives in the kitchen and seems to be quite a lot happier - you’ve prompted me to think about the set up at OH house (we move there this year) and whether we should restrict the area she sleeps in  :dunno:

This is a really difficult behaviour to deal with and manage.  Pearl seems to be better now so in answer to your question, regarding behaviour with a child then I wouldn’t expect him to be any more snappy but you will need to manage his anxiety also your child and their boundaries  ;)

Jake, snapping, could be any one of a number of underlying causes.  You need to try and establish what the triggers are, or the environment he’s in at the time....or the time of day etc and build a pattern - to either preempt, avoid or manage.  Having said that I’m still doing this with Pearl and often it’s when she was expecting one action, has decided she doesn’t want to do it (then gets herself in a ‘tis) and snaps when moved/touched/herded into the house.  It’s rare she’s like this outside the home environment  and she is now one of four which she is clearly rather put out by (one more was bearable  :shades:)

Jayne





Offline karenl

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Re: Snapping Spaniel
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2018, 10:20:10 AM »
Hi there, I too have a nervous cocker spaniel now age eight, she had "issues " from the day we
Got her at nine weeks I have posted on here many a time .
We saw a bahaviorist when Amber was around 9 months old due to her unpredictable behaviour.
Basically (and I'm trying to keep this short) we learnt the sort of things that upset her and tried to avoid situations, being too harsh or raised voices didn't work on amber and only made her weary
Of us ! Talking in a mild manor but giving her space seemed to help her.
Putting her out of a room helped if she was snappy or anxious helped .
Treats helped in gaining her trust when calling her to us ,

On a different note , we didn't realise when we bought amber home that we were to have two grandchildren in the following few months and that was a concern as I would be looking after them two days a week ! 
Amber freaked out every time she heard them cry or made any noise so I had to keep them separate
But was also aware that I didn't want to make her jealous or pushed out whenever they were here
But I had no choice as I couldn't risk the babies getting hurt or becoming frightened of dogs and also
Didn't want our dog to be stressed either !

Gradually behind a stair gate in the kitchen amber got used to seeing and hearing the babies and occasionally Grandad would let her come in (on lead)and sit next to him and watch them play.
This worked with amber but it took some time now the two children are eight years old get on great with Amber and have done for a few years although they know she doesn't like being cuddled or stroked by them and they know that so don't do it , they love to play ball with her and she loves it too.
Even WE had to really gain ambers trust over time to have her on our laps for a cuddle which we love
And she is quite willing to do now .

We also have a four year old grandchild now who also knows the rules but in no circumstances the children are left alone with the dog , amber is still an anxious dog but she is our pride and joy and
We are very proud of how far we have all come but it's taken some time and a lot of patience.
Good luck to you !

Offline hoover

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Re: Snapping Spaniel
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2018, 04:33:37 PM »
We too have a snappy cocker spaniel and I think I can see where your trainer is coming from when they speak about a lack of respect...we certainly notice when we ease up and give less commands to Ollie that he uses aggression more to try to control situations to suit him.  So yes, he would snap more during body handling such as grooming and drying.  We can't do anything at these times apart from time outs as confrontation would lead to escalating response from him but we do go out of our way to command him more as part of our daily lives so that he is more in the mind set that we are in charge and when he senses that direction of relationship more clearly he certainly snaps less.

I think that talking of respect or boundaries in these situation is pretty much the same thing- when YOU set boundaries you are showing the dog what you consider acceptable behaviour - and he or she respects the boundaries that you have made (hopefully!) and subsequently respects you.  When you don't set boundaries some dogs who are more predisposed to having a sense of themselves within a power dynamic will instead try to set boundaries themselves - and require your respect for the boundaries they set.  The only way they have of setting their boundaries is by body language and subsequent expressions of aggression and this is what is happening with the snapping.  The worry is when they are setting the boundaries in areas like grooming and drying which is necessary for their comfort, and can result in dangerous situations for children , because although it may be understandable that dogs dislike lots of things we still need them to not express aggression on these occasions in order to have a safe home environment.

My personal opinion is that this isn't a meaningful paradigm for many dogs who don't seem to operate in a dominant-submissive context, and I have certainly never had a dog before that has had the sense of this that Ollie does; I have never ever needed to assert authority over any of the labradors I have had for us all to have an easy and harmonious living environment. But for Ollie we certainly do have to do this to have a dog that is less likely to use aggression on us.

Great to hear some people have made such good progress with their nervous dogs and children.  At the moment we can not really trust Ollie around kids - and I think we would need to do a lot of hard work along the lines of what other posters are suggesting to get him to be less nervous.  I think other posters have said in the past there may be a difference when it is your own child .


Offline Pearly

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Re: Snapping Spaniel
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2018, 11:24:51 PM »
We too have a snappy cocker spaniel and I think I can see where your trainer is coming from when they speak about a lack of respect...we certainly notice when we ease up and give less commands to Ollie that he uses aggression more to try to control situations to suit him.  So yes, he would snap more during body handling such as grooming and drying.  We can't do anything at these times apart from time outs as confrontation would lead to escalating response from him but we do go out of our way to command him more as part of our daily lives so that he is more in the mind set that we are in charge and when he senses that direction of relationship more clearly he certainly snaps less.

I think that talking of respect or boundaries in these situation is pretty much the same thing- when YOU set boundaries you are showing the dog what you consider acceptable behaviour - and he or she respects the boundaries that you have made (hopefully!) and subsequently respects you.  When you don't set boundaries some dogs who are more predisposed to having a sense of themselves within a power dynamic will instead try to set boundaries themselves - and require your respect for the boundaries they set.  The only way they have of setting their boundaries is by body language and subsequent expressions of aggression and this is what is happening with the snapping.  The worry is when they are setting the boundaries in areas like grooming and drying which is necessary for their comfort, and can result in dangerous situations for children , because although it may be understandable that dogs dislike lots of things we still need them to not express aggression on these occasions in order to have a safe home environment.

My personal opinion is that this isn't a meaningful paradigm for many dogs who don't seem to operate in a dominant-submissive context, and I have certainly never had a dog before that has had the sense of this that Ollie does; I have never ever needed to assert authority over any of the labradors I have had for us all to have an easy and harmonious living environment. But for Ollie we certainly do have to do this to have a dog that is less likely to use aggression on us.

Great to hear some people have made such good progress with their nervous dogs and children.  At the moment we can not really trust Ollie around kids - and I think we would need to do a lot of hard work along the lines of what other posters are suggesting to get him to be less nervous.  I think other posters have said in the past there may be a difference when it is your own child .

Far more eloquently written than my attempt but you’ve said exactly what I was trying to!  Thank you.

Offline phoenix

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Re: Snapping Spaniel
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2018, 09:35:42 PM »
Bobby, hand shy , was always perfectly behaved for groomers and vets. 
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.

Offline GazP

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Re: Snapping Spaniel
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2018, 09:24:36 AM »
so glad I came across this post. My working cocker is 18 months and in the last 6 months has become more snappy particularly growling at children he does not know, which is worrying. I know he isn't an aggressive dog and my perception is that he becomes anxious and the snapping (or lets be honest its biting, snapping just sounds not as bad) when he's approached.

When he's out and even off the lead other people don't tend to bother him and he keeps himself to himself so this why I feel its only when he feels threatened or anxious. The challenge is he's not like it with everyone he doesn't know but I feel it is getting worse.

Ive never had this behaviour with a dog before and really don't know what to do about it. we have 3 kids, which he is fine with and plays with, but as you can imagine it can be challenging if the kids want to bring friends around.

He has always been a tenacious character but smart and we did have a spell when he was 8 months where he went through he teenage time and his ears were permanently turned off but we became "strict" and defined boundaries. I think we have lapsed (maybe) since maybe this is a contributing factor.

I hope we can sort this because although I know he isnt vicious or aggressive it only takes a snap at a child for him to be labelled dangerous.

Offline hoover

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Re: Snapping Spaniel
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2018, 01:44:22 PM »
The issue with kids is so tricky as of course you just don't want to take any risks and so this minimizes the opportunities for exposure and training.  With our dog we just have to manage situations and control his access to children - ie not allow him to be around children.  Which has narrowed how we socialise and who we can invite to the house unfortunately.

At Christmas we had hoped we could make improvements with my nieces and started this by having them out in the garden throwing his frisbee for him.  We also got them to walk him on the lead and to give him treats for following their commands with the hope of establishing a good relationship where they were more authoritative.  The reality was that although things appeared to go well at these times it did not stop Ollie from being on edge when inside, and although they knew very well never to approach him he unfortunately barked and leapt at the 7 year old when she gave me a hug and barked at both and very unfortunately backed them into a corner where they felt trapped (and squealed which of course made him worse).  So we can't trust him and we have to keep him away from children.  Even looking back at what appeared to be positive outside experiences we now see he was hugely aroused and excitable on these occasions, and on the walks he was very much walking them rather than vice versa!

Normally we can do a lot of managing of Ollie because he looks to us when he is concerned and then we can direct him away from situations or tell him to come to us for the lead, but with some kids he can become aroused and focussed on them so that he does not think to look to us for direction and our instructions fall on deaf ears.

You are right you certainly don't want there to be an incident - maybe managing him at home so he doesn't have contact with your children's friends is the best way forward for now?

Offline GazP

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Re: Snapping Spaniel
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2018, 09:24:17 PM »
He does have a segregated part of the house but this can be a challenge.

Whilst he does respond to commands I still feel he thinks he sits higher in the “pack” than he should. Therefore he is probably making a decision against people he does not know. Instead of relying on the decision makers/ leaders in the pack.

Offline Kimberley

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Re: Snapping Spaniel
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2018, 06:36:11 PM »
My working cocker who I say is now 12 years old,  used to  snap until I got him to obedience class. He was taught to leave food until he was told that it was his. Working cocker sometimes don't need massive walks but stimulation, lots of searching games something to work that very active brain
Kim is owned by Coco, Breeze the Cockers and Charlie the (failed foster)Cavi


Offline mlynnf50

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Re: Snapping Spaniel
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2018, 11:55:25 AM »
I know exactly where you are coming from..
Selby is now 8 and we have the scars, finger, lip neck face... Really bitten, I dont know how we managed to get this far😉  Trying to put his lead on he would snap, so When I tried to put his lead on I would make it a good thing and gave him a treat,, now I do not need to treat, when brushing him I put a muzzle on, he actually loves having his muzzle on, maybe he feels safe, we have just muddled through and dont know if we did things right, but he is so loving with me but not hubby, if people come to house I have to put him in another room, its all trial and error, he is fine at the groomers and vets, i can now even give him a tablet down his throat, i think they are like children, they have to have boundries and you have to be consistent, He is my baby and I love him to bits, but he is gobby😀

Offline C_phillips

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Re: Snapping Spaniel
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2018, 11:42:19 AM »
so glad I came across this post. My working cocker is 18 months and in the last 6 months has become more snappy particularly growling at children he does not know, which is worrying. I know he isn't an aggressive dog and my perception is that he becomes anxious and the snapping (or lets be honest its biting, snapping just sounds not as bad) when he's approached.

When he's out and even off the lead other people don't tend to bother him and he keeps himself to himself so this why I feel its only when he feels threatened or anxious. The challenge is he's not like it with everyone he doesn't know but I feel it is getting worse.

Ive never had this behaviour with a dog before and really don't know what to do about it. we have 3 kids, which he is fine with and plays with, but as you can imagine it can be challenging if the kids want to bring friends around.

He has always been a tenacious character but smart and we did have a spell when he was 8 months where he went through he teenage time and his ears were permanently turned off but we became "strict" and defined boundaries. I think we have lapsed (maybe) since maybe this is a contributing factor.

I hope we can sort this because although I know he isnt vicious or aggressive it only takes a snap at a child for him to be labelled dangerous.

Hi Gaz, your post in particualr resonated me - nice to know we are lot alone!
It sounds like your cocker developed exactly the same habits as Jake at around the same time. How weird. I don't think it's a management issue tbh, you sound like you know what you're doing and we did a lot of research and did things by the book. Some are just programmed this way!
It's good to know he gets on with your kids at least.

If anyone was interested my partner and I have started a blog on Jake's progress. We are going to start work with a new behaviourist soon and have already put into place some new management strategies (hand feeding, no more obsessional ball walks to overstimulate him, more brain games) and we have been incident free for 2 weeks now whee they were becoming more frequent.

The blog is: snappyspaniel.wordpress.com :)
Owner of Jake, the fearful-reactive Spaniel.
Read about our journey with Jake:
SnappySpaniel.Wordpress.com