Author Topic: Advice please struggling to cope with guarding  (Read 1239 times)

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Offline bessymate4eva

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Advice please struggling to cope with guarding
« on: January 22, 2018, 12:02:53 PM »
Hi I know that I have posted about this before but it's really starting to get us down  :'(. Chester has been a resource guarder for quite a while. We thought we had managed to prevent it last year but since my dad brought Lucy into the family it has flared up again but this time worse. So far we have seen a behaviourist who has given us some training for him to do. Despite the guarding he gets on well with lucy and the behaviourist doesnt think she is the problem.  It is quite difficult with Chester as he only seems to like certain treats and overall isn't that food motivated and isn't bothered about balls so we struggle to get him motivated to do the training. Sometimes he just gives up and walks away. I think its why we have struggled a lot with training. He's also quite an anxious dog and likes his own space. We are just going to keep trying with him hopefully he will get better. I asked the behaviourist about whether you can do anything when he is actually doing the guarding and she said just to ignore him. This has become quite a problem as even though we try really hard to make sure there is nothing he can guard he can still do it. The worst situations are when he is guarding rooms where he will not let you past. Fair enough to ignore him but if you need something out the room what do you do. Tried luring him away with treats, calling him but I think he has realised if he goes to get the treat people can get past or get said object that he is guarding which is quite often our things. Anothér situation a few days ago we took the caravan away for a short break and took the two dogs as they love the walks. Had a situation where Chester was guarding the back bedroom of the caravan so we couldn't get in   >:D. I think we are just praying that this training works soon as we are pulling our hair out  :005:.

Offline hoover

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Re: Advice please struggling to cope with guarding
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2018, 11:24:24 AM »
Sorry to hear that you are having to deal with quite severe difficulties with guarding.  Is there any way to contain Chester better so that he doesn't get the opportunity to guard rooms so much - perhaps by using a baby gate on the door to the kitchen or other room to limit where he lies down? You maybe don't think it's ideal to limit his movements but he is probably very stressed (as are you all) when he is in guarding mode so it might help reduce his stress when he is more limited in where he has access to. Then there is also crate training - perhaps he can use the crate as a safe space to relax and sleep although you might have to be careful getting him out if his guarding is that bad.  If he is so worked up by the guarding the chances are he is not fully resting when he is lying down in other areas of the house - he is probably always on alert.  This may mean he is very tired and as I think pretty much every other poster on this forum who has dealt with this issue has found, the guarding gets much worse when the dog is tired. Time in his crate may help this.

When Ollie blocked doorways it was usually because he had chosen to lie there and had taken some favoured item with him - and his growling was because we needed to get close to him to enter the room rather than because he was guarding the room itself - is that a possibility? (although I think you recall saying he rushes back to guard the room after being lured away so maybe it is the entire room he is guarding.)

Treats can be a mixed bag when a dog is already guarding - especially if you throw them to him - it can work, or it can end up stressing the dog out more as he thinks 'Now I have all these things to guard too!' - which is what started happening with Ollie.

When we couldn't get Ollie away by luring with treats (yes, he got wise to it too) we went through the motions of preparing to go for a walk - coat, keys, lead, announcement of going for a walk, opening front door and he would sometimes come to the front door for that (then of course you would need to follow through by taking him outside at least briefly.) Then you can get someone else to remove object while you are out or at least get him on the lead and tied to the door handle if you need to pick something up. 

Best of luck with it - what is your trainer suggesting for training exercises, out of interest?

Offline bessymate4eva

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Re: Advice please struggling to cope with guarding
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2018, 11:15:46 AM »
Sorry to hear that you are having to deal with quite severe difficulties with guarding.  Is there any way to contain Chester better so that he doesn't get the opportunity to guard rooms so much - perhaps by using a baby gate on the door to the kitchen or other room to limit where he lies down? You maybe don't think it's ideal to limit his movements but he is probably very stressed (as are you all) when he is in guarding mode so it might help reduce his stress when he is more limited in where he has access to. Then there is also crate training - perhaps he can use the crate as a safe space to relax and sleep although you might have to be careful getting him out if his guarding is that bad.  If he is so worked up by the guarding the chances are he is not fully resting when he is lying down in other areas of the house - he is probably always on alert.  This may mean he is very tired and as I think pretty much every other poster on this forum who has dealt with this issue has found, the guarding gets much worse when the dog is tired. Time in his crate may help this.

When Ollie blocked doorways it was usually because he had chosen to lie there and had taken some favoured item with him - and his growling was because we needed to get close to him to enter the room rather than because he was guarding the room itself - is that a possibility? (although I think you recall saying he rushes back to guard the room after being lured away so maybe it is the entire room he is guarding.)

Treats can be a mixed bag when a dog is already guarding - especially if you throw them to him - it can work, or it can end up stressing the dog out more as he thinks 'Now I have all these things to guard too!' - which is what started happening with Ollie.

When we couldn't get Ollie away by luring with treats (yes, he got wise to it too) we went through the motions of preparing to go for a walk - coat, keys, lead, announcement of going for a walk, opening front door and he would sometimes come to the front door for that (then of course you would need to follow through by taking him outside at least briefly.) Then you can get someone else to remove object while you are out or at least get him on the lead and tied to the door handle if you need to pick something up. 

Best of luck with it - what is your trainer suggesting for training exercises, out of interest?

Hi Hoover sorry for the late reply Thankyou so much for your advice it has helped us to actually feel like we might get through this. The training the behaviourist has suggested is first off doing the hand touch with him. Where we put our hand out and if he sniffs/touches he gets a reward. We have been trying this with him although he seems to be getting a bit confused as we put our hand out for him as a cue to give his paw so he keeps thinking it is that  :005:. The other training she has given him is calling him to us. Each member of the family has to call him to us and he has to sit and get praise and a reward. If he goes to the wrong person he gets ignored. The last one is getting him to settle in his dog bed. When he moves towards his dog bed we use the clicker and place a treat on his bed and praise if he goes in it. She said we also have to make him work for everything by giving him commands before he is allowed on furniture, eating, going through doors etc. It's been quite difficult as we have realised that he only seems to want to listen to us when he feels like it. You can call him and if he doesn't want to come to you he will just ignore you. She said as well if he doesn't eat just let him go hungry for a bit but he can go without food nearly all day he just isn't motivated by the food. We had a bit of a breakthrough with the guarding the other day as he was guarding in my brothers room and I managed to sit just a little bit away from him (still growling at me) and had a dog chew in my hand. Took a few bits off and threw one over to him then another one a little bit closer to me then waited. He eventually started to eat them then came over to me I praised him then walked out the room and he followed I then praised him again gave him some more dog chew. Then walked further out and gave him the whole thing praised him giving cuddles and even though the door was wide open he didn't rush to go back in like he normally does.  :lol2:. Sorry for all the long rambling I think we have a lot of work to do with Chester  ph34r

Offline phoenix

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Re: Advice please struggling to cope with guarding
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2018, 09:21:03 PM »
Bobby was a guarder, well documented on Col, and could have caused marital problems because OH didn't understand dog brains or the psychology of the training. One Robles we never. Cured was car guarding. Unless he was put in last, it was like the red eyed devil was in it. Also he had to get in all by himself, which could take ages.
 That said, he was a fantastic dog. 
I wondered if you've read ' Mine' by Jean Donaldson?  I have a copy if you or anyone else would like it, free.  It's really for trainers, but it goes through the many baby steps that a dog has to adapt to. It shows how to re-programme them. It's a huge learning curve having a dog like this,  and in all my life, and eleven dogs, I had ever seen this before or after.
Please pm me if you want it, with your address.
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.

Offline bessymate4eva

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Re: Advice please struggling to cope with guarding
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2018, 12:06:14 AM »
Bobby was a guarder, well documented on Col, and could have caused marital problems because OH didn't understand dog brains or the psychology of the training. One Robles we never. Cured was car guarding. Unless he was put in last, it was like the red eyed devil was in it. Also he had to get in all by himself, which could take ages.
 That said, he was a fantastic dog. 
I wondered if you've read ' Mine' by Jean Donaldson?  I have a copy if you or anyone else would like it, free.  It's really for trainers, but it goes through the many baby steps that a dog has to adapt to. It shows how to re-programme them. It's a huge learning curve having a dog like this,  and in all my life, and eleven dogs, I had ever seen this before or after.
Please pm me if you want it, with your address.

Thankyou Phoenix we have already got the mine jean Donaldson book but we find it really difficult to understand   :huh:. I might have to have another read. Chester has guarded in the car before but he hasn't done it for ages thank goodness. It used to be getting him back out once he was in because in his mind we went away in the car and left him so he thought I need to be in the car so I don't get left.  :005:

Offline hoover

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Re: Advice please struggling to cope with guarding
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2018, 02:00:48 PM »
Sorry to hear that you are having to deal with quite severe difficulties with guarding.  Is there any way to contain Chester better so that he doesn't get the opportunity to guard rooms so much - perhaps by using a baby gate on the door to the kitchen or other room to limit where he lies down? You maybe don't think it's ideal to limit his movements but he is probably very stressed (as are you all) when he is in guarding mode so it might help reduce his stress when he is more limited in where he has access to. Then there is also crate training - perhaps he can use the crate as a safe space to relax and sleep although you might have to be careful getting him out if his guarding is that bad.  If he is so worked up by the guarding the chances are he is not fully resting when he is lying down in other areas of the house - he is probably always on alert.  This may mean he is very tired and as I think pretty much every other poster on this forum who has dealt with this issue has found, the guarding gets much worse when the dog is tired. Time in his crate may help this.

When Ollie blocked doorways it was usually because he had chosen to lie there and had taken some favoured item with him - and his growling was because we needed to get close to him to enter the room rather than because he was guarding the room itself - is that a possibility? (although I think you recall saying he rushes back to guard the room after being lured away so maybe it is the entire room he is guarding.)

Treats can be a mixed bag when a dog is already guarding - especially if you throw them to him - it can work, or it can end up stressing the dog out more as he thinks 'Now I have all these things to guard too!' - which is what started happening with Ollie.

When we couldn't get Ollie away by luring with treats (yes, he got wise to it too) we went through the motions of preparing to go for a walk - coat, keys, lead, announcement of going for a walk, opening front door and he would sometimes come to the front door for that (then of course you would need to follow through by taking him outside at least briefly.) Then you can get someone else to remove object while you are out or at least get him on the lead and tied to the door handle if you need to pick something up. 

Best of luck with it - what is your trainer suggesting for training exercises, out of interest?

Hi Hoover sorry for the late reply Thankyou so much for your advice it has helped us to actually feel like we might get through this. The training the behaviourist has suggested is first off doing the hand touch with him. Where we put our hand out and if he sniffs/touches he gets a reward. We have been trying this with him although he seems to be getting a bit confused as we put our hand out for him as a cue to give his paw so he keeps thinking it is that  :005:. The other training she has given him is calling him to us. Each member of the family has to call him to us and he has to sit and get praise and a reward. If he goes to the wrong person he gets ignored. The last one is getting him to settle in his dog bed. When he moves towards his dog bed we use the clicker and place a treat on his bed and praise if he goes in it. She said we also have to make him work for everything by giving him commands before he is allowed on furniture, eating, going through doors etc. It's been quite difficult as we have realised that he only seems to want to listen to us when he feels like it. You can call him and if he doesn't want to come to you he will just ignore you. She said as well if he doesn't eat just let him go hungry for a bit but he can go without food nearly all day he just isn't motivated by the food. We had a bit of a breakthrough with the guarding the other day as he was guarding in my brothers room and I managed to sit just a little bit away from him (still growling at me) and had a dog chew in my hand. Took a few bits off and threw one over to him then another one a little bit closer to me then waited. He eventually started to eat them then came over to me I praised him then walked out the room and he followed I then praised him again gave him some more dog chew. Then walked further out and gave him the whole thing praised him giving cuddles and even though the door was wide open he didn't rush to go back in like he normally does.  :lol2:. Sorry for all the long rambling I think we have a lot of work to do with Chester  ph34r

Sounds good advice from your trainer. Much harder with a dog that isn't food motivated although waiting until they are hungry will certainly help increase motivation.  For a time with Ollie we didn't actually have set meal times for him - we used all the kibble allocated for his meals for training.  Training should be a positive experience - if he is not paying attention just try again later otherwise you risk diluting the effectiveness of commands when you repeat them and he is not giving the responses that you are looking for. It can also be a bit of a process of finding out what he absolutely loves the most - chicken scraps etc.

If he is more motivated during walks you may be able to get his attention more there - for instance by walking him on lead for stretches and requiring him to follow commands such as sit, give paw, before letting him off to run free.  Good luck with it all.


Offline Patp

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Re: Advice please struggling to cope with guarding
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2018, 04:04:55 PM »
Keep up the good work!  I know that Archie Bean (Emma) had the same issues with room / space guarding.  It might be worth dropping her a message xx