Author Topic: Cocker or monster?  (Read 3957 times)

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Offline sal spring

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Re: Cocker or monster?
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2009, 09:18:57 PM »
We have the same problem at 13 weeks....no amount of akk or no works, nor does walking away makes her stop. Under
advice we have been told to mimic what a mother dog would do with an unruly pup....it sounds odd but
growl really loud, ignore for a couple of minutes then let her come to you to make up. If this fails then
carefully roll her on her back, gently but firmly hold her there until she looks away (submissive posture), let her go, ignore
for two minutes and then praise good behaviour. This is intended not to hurt but to discipline in canine terms ....it has
worked really well when walking away, saying no fails,

Offline JennyBee

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Re: Cocker or monster?
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2009, 09:30:52 PM »
We have the same problem at 13 weeks....no amount of akk or no works, nor does walking away makes her stop. Under
advice we have been told to mimic what a mother dog would do with an unruly pup....it sounds odd but
growl really loud, ignore for a couple of minutes then let her come to you to make up. If this fails then
carefully roll her on her back, gently but firmly hold her there until she looks away (submissive posture), let her go, ignore
for two minutes and then praise good behaviour. This is intended not to hurt but to discipline in canine terms ....it has
worked really well when walking away, saying no fails,

Sorry, I don’t hold with ‘dominance theory,’ I would never have done this with Brodie.  If the pup persists in mouthing, stand up and walk away.  Ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good :D

                              x In memory of Barney x

Offline Karma

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Re: Cocker or monster?
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2009, 09:34:01 PM »
Please, please, please don't keep rolling your pup on their back.  It is NOT what a mother dog would do, and can lead to other problems (the pup may become hand-shy, for example).  
This is sometimes called the "alpha roll" and most more modern ways of training have discredited it...  

At 13 weeks, your pup hasn't started to try and fight back from this - what will you do when instead of looking away, she decides to bite even harder?

At 13 weeks, there is a lot more "ack" and walking away to do, but it does work given time and consistency!

Remembering Honey. Aug 2007-July 2020

Offline Beth

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Re: Cocker or monster?
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2009, 09:48:20 AM »
Agree with JennyBee and Karma, not a good plan, tis all very well with a good natured pup (though still damaging to your relationship :'() but with a pup like Jarvis, he'd have turned around and really bit me if i'd attempted anything like that. ph34r
Owned by Jarvis (Cocker), and Lucy (Cavalier).

Offline bibathediva

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Re: Cocker or monster?
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2009, 10:12:03 AM »

Agree with everyone on the alpha roll method  :-\ we are not dogs so cannot begin to mimic another dog...as far as im aware dogs do not alpha roll each other to discipline  :huh: a dog will roll on its back of it own accord to be submissive to another dog but another dog wont force it on its back  :-\
It looks like a quicker fix to use methods like this so people assume it is working but it can damage your relationship with your pup/dog...patience and lots and lots of persistence are a kinder method  ;)

Offline cerinrich

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Re: Cocker or monster?
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2009, 11:05:04 AM »
Feels a bit like stating the obvious but we found that our behviour towards Hattie when she was tiny made a huge difference to how she was with us. I was much more calm with her and she nipped me less whereas Rich did lots of tugger and play that made her a bit over excited, which she loved, but she carried on nipping him for much longer!

Offline Hurtwood Dogs

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Re: Cocker or monster?
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2009, 11:52:41 AM »
We have the same problem at 13 weeks....no amount of akk or no works, nor does walking away makes her stop. Under
advice we have been told to mimic what a mother dog would do with an unruly pup....it sounds odd but
growl really loud, ignore for a couple of minutes then let her come to you to make up. If this fails then
carefully roll her on her back, gently but firmly hold her there until she looks away (submissive posture), let her go, ignore
for two minutes and then praise good behaviour. This is intended not to hurt but to discipline in canine terms ....it has
worked really well when walking away, saying no fails,

Having seen what this technique can do to some dogs I would never go down this route and would really encourage anyone else not to either.

If you have a pup that's prone to standing up for itself, you will seriously aggravate potential behavioural problems doing things like this. Puppies don't need to be dominated, they need to be taught firmly and consistently, but very kindly. If they are shown how to behave through methods you have described above, you may end up with an unconfident, unhappy dog that works for you (sometimes) because it doesn't want to be hurt but this isn't ideal and at worst, you may end up with a dog that starts to challenge you and go head to head. Removing the pup and ignoring bad behaviour teaches them that they can't interact with you (which is what they want) when they behave in certain ways and they learn to enjoy behaving how we want them too because when they do that, they get rewarded for it by time with us and to be happy. This technique gives you MUCH more consistent results long term and a much happier dog. You also avoid having a nasty incident with your pup which could result in it not trusting you.

Teaching a pup to play nicely and have bite inhibition does take a very long time for some dogs but it's a small sacrifice to make for a lifetime with a happy, well balanced, well behaved dog - that respects and trusts you ;) If saying 'ow' or 'No' isn't working then it's best to resign yourself to removing the pup to a place he can safely watch you all from but not get at you.

Some methods that used to be suggested for bite inhibition in the past are: Flipping pups onto their backs, forcing hands to the back of their mouths when they bite as there are no teeth there so it doesn't hurt the human and holding their mouths closed when they bite. ALL these methods could cause you very serious problems with you pup/dog long term and you could end up with an unpredictable adult dog. Kindness, consistency, time and patience will give you a lovely dog who treats you in the same way in the future.. and you also get the most wonderful bond with your dog - which is unbeatable and what we all want :D

Please don't flip puppies onto their backs, it's horrible for them and encourages them not to trust you!!

Hannah xxx

Hannah, Dave & Normy xx

Trev 2001-07 soul dog, always in my heart and dreams x

Offline sal spring

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Re: Cocker or monster?
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2009, 02:07:46 PM »
That's interesting - what would you suggest then when puppy won't let go of your leg or clothes despite lots of loud ackk's. We are finding it difficult to get her to release her jaws of her own volition ? I would never ever hurt her but am wondering how we can stop her biting during her mad phases !!

Offline Karma

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Re: Cocker or monster?
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2009, 02:24:17 PM »

One "Ack" and if that doesn't work, just stand still and ignore....   ;)
Try to distract before she grabs hold of trouser legs... drop treats as she's about to grab hold... wave a tug toy under her nose.... Time outs when too over-excited...

I used to put on a pair of old trousers over whatever I was wearing and just walk away when she clamped on - there are lots of holes in these trousers now!!!  ;)
Remembering Honey. Aug 2007-July 2020

Offline Hurtwood Dogs

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Re: Cocker or monster?
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2009, 02:44:15 PM »
I'm afraid that there is a bit of 'just get your head down and get through it' too. Ignoring will work but is easier said than done when you have a mouthful of teeth in your leg! Some pups become particularly bad when they are tired too so giving them some time out on their own will also help that. You may find that as he gets his adult teeth through things start to improve rapidly too. With my current dog (the particularly bad pup!), I gated the kitchen off and he had a crate in there. When he was playing nicely he got lots of attention but when he was getting out of hand I quietly picked him up and popped him in 'Dave's space' and walked off and left him - he lived pretty much separately from us and our other dog until he was 8 months.

It's very hard work and very frustrating but I PROMISE it's not forever and you'll start to see some progress eventually! Puppies LOVE being praised for good behaviour and one day you will suddenly see him start to do something that you've rewarded him for in the past hoping that you'll tell him he's a good boy again  :luv: My pup was so bad that if I even said 'No' to him he went for me and I know if I'd gone head to head with him I'd have had to let him go by now as he would have been impossible to manage with small children. He gets very confused and frightened when he hurts himself and reacts with aggression.. by always being gentle with him I can pretty much do anything with him now because he trusts me.

Another thing you can do to reinforce the message is play with him with with a long line attached to him and a friend sat quietly in the room - as soon as he starts to bite he gets gently pulled away using the long line and placed on his own. This also helps take any confrontation out of the situation.

Hang in there!
Hannah x

Hannah, Dave & Normy xx

Trev 2001-07 soul dog, always in my heart and dreams x

Offline Karma

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Re: Cocker or monster?
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2009, 02:50:50 PM »

Oh yes... it's all very well us giving the advice, but I know I for one was frequently reduced to tears during this stage of Honey's life... it felt like it was never ending, and that she spent more time on the opposite side of the door to me than she did with me.
It didn't help that once OH got home, she would be really tired and curl up and sleep on the back of his legs when he was lying on the floor!!  >:D

I do understand the desire to find something that works better!  We've all been there, and it's the main reason there aren't more people here with 3+ dogs!!!  :005:
Remembering Honey. Aug 2007-July 2020

Offline JennyBee

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Re: Cocker or monster?
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2009, 03:04:40 PM »

Oh yes... it's all very well us giving the advice, but I know I for one was frequently reduced to tears during this stage of Honey's life... it felt like it was never ending, and that she spent more time on the opposite side of the door to me than she did with me.
It didn't help that once OH got home, she would be really tired and curl up and sleep on the back of his legs when he was lying on the floor!!  >:D

I do understand the desire to find something that works better!  We've all been there, and it's the main reason there aren't more people here with 3+ dogs!!!  :005:
I’m glad I wasn’t the only one!  Brodie was a complete and utter terror >:D.  I couldn’t even pet her, she was like a fluffy piranha. I honestly cannot see me owning another puppy, she really was that bad!  But it was all worth it and I could not have asked for a better dog :luv:.  Never again though :005:

                              x In memory of Barney x

Offline Hurtwood Dogs

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Re: Cocker or monster?
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2009, 03:27:24 PM »

Oh yes... it's all very well us giving the advice, but I know I for one was frequently reduced to tears during this stage of Honey's life... it felt like it was never ending, and that she spent more time on the opposite side of the door to me than she did with me.
It didn't help that once OH got home, she would be really tired and curl up and sleep on the back of his legs when he was lying on the floor!!  >:D

I do understand the desire to find something that works better!  We've all been there, and it's the main reason there aren't more people here with 3+ dogs!!!  :005:
I’m glad I wasn’t the only one!  Brodie was a complete and utter terror >:D.  I couldn’t even pet her, she was like a fluffy piranha. I honestly cannot see me owning another puppy, she really was that bad!  But it was all worth it and I could not have asked for a better dog :luv:.  Never again though :005:

Me too  :lol2: :lol2: For all the worry and problems my 2.5 yr old rescue brought me, I'd do it again in a second... but putting up with a puppy for a year is not on my list of things I want to do again this life.. it's rescues only for me from now  :luv: :luv:

Hannah, Dave & Normy xx

Trev 2001-07 soul dog, always in my heart and dreams x

Offline sal spring

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Re: Cocker or monster?
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2009, 09:11:59 PM »
Thanks for your post Hannah - I keep putting her in the kitchen when she is too nippy and not listening. It does feel like she spends more time in there on her own (she can see us through the stair gate though) than with us at the moment. It does help to know that this is ok whilst she is going through this period. As soon as she calms down I let her through so that she has the opportunity to be good....It's just good to know that this strategy is ok and will not cause her to be damaged with all the time out.....At least I am home all day so she does get plenty of opportunities to socialise positively......this period is certainly not easy but worth it i'm sure......Think I will stick with the time outs and plenty of reinforcement of the good behaviour even if it is brief "!!

Offline keepupwith

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Re: Cocker or monster?
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2009, 09:19:32 AM »
It does get better honestly and well worth persevering to nip it in the bud now. My parents' westie at 2, still mouths given the chance because it wasn't stopped early. With Poppy we always tried to put something in her mouth before it attached onto us and it quickly did the trick, we never needed to use time out. If she did catch us we would shriek and the sharp intake of breath is another one that stopped her in her tracks.

Good luck, you will get there- we have the most soppy gorgeous affectionate cocker, so it doesn't last!!

Pam