Author Topic: rough shooting & wildfowling - shotgun/firearms license  (Read 4235 times)

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Offline flashpanther

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rough shooting & wildfowling - shotgun/firearms license
« on: July 12, 2007, 12:03:20 AM »
I am looking to have a try at shooting.

If i like it I will get a license so I can join a shooting society. hopefully one for rough shooting in lincolnshire / humberside area but their are some wildfowling societies involved around the Humber banks.

The whole purpose of this is so i can get my working cocker spaniel involved as a true gundog flushing and retrieving.

Does anyone know if I would be best with just a shotgun license or a Coterminous one (shotgun & firearms) please?

Any help is extremely welcome on this subject.

Offline Nicola

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Re: rough shooting & wildfowling - shotgun/firearms license
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2007, 12:14:09 AM »
Have you tried the NOBS forum? There are a lot of guys on there who are experienced in shooting/firearms stuff... I don't shoot myself (although Cazzie is trying to change that!) I stick to working the dogs but you should be able to get loads of firearms info on NOBS...

www.nobs.org.uk
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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Offline Coco

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Re: rough shooting & wildfowling - shotgun/firearms license
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2007, 12:54:09 AM »
There are plenty of people who can give you a much better answer; Millomite particularly, but I would say your best bet is to go beating or picking up. You'll get paid for this if your dog is good.

BORING BIT COMING UP: I say this due to the fact that shooting is extremely expensive, thousands. Lesson, gun, gun cabinet, gun licence, membership to club, paying for a day, kit etc etc and unless you think you have somewhere you can legally shoot and given the length of the season probably won't even be able to do it very much. Also It would be more likely unless you had an amazingly well trained gun dog and were shooting on a peg that you would not handle the dog and shoot at the same time. A dog that did not stay pretty much still and didn't bark at all wouldn't be too welcome either.

OK, WE'RE BACK: In my opinion beating and picking up can be more fun for the dog as they get to do more. There should be plenty of opportunity to do this in your area if you speak to the right people. Both our breeder and a friend live and go on shoots 20 miles around Barton on Humber - (I think that's what it's called)

"Beating is an essential part of any successful shoot. If you are unfamiliar with what beating actually is, basically a beater is a person who has the job of flushing birds such as pheasants or grouse from cover in the direction of the guns. "

"Picking up is vital on any shoot where a large number of birds will be shot. Pickers up are people who stand behind the line of guns on a shoot and use their dogs to retrieve all the shot game."
http://www.nobs.org.uk/html/pickingup.asp

Try these sites http://www.nobs.org.uk/,  http://www.basc.org.uk/.

Hope this helps, if you think shooting is still for you as I'm making the assumptions here that you're not massively familiar with it - enjoy! It's defiantly a lot of fun.



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Vicky, Wherry and Gizzymo

Offline Coco

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Re: rough shooting & wildfowling - shotgun/firearms license
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2007, 12:56:28 AM »
Sorry Nichola, I was messing around and forgot to post so it went on after you Doh! ::)  I'll just leave it as is though. Think you're answer was better :$ ph34r
There are no bad dogs, just bad people
Vicky, Wherry and Gizzymo

Offline flashpanther

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Re: rough shooting & wildfowling - shotgun/firearms license
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2007, 01:18:16 AM »
thank you both for your help.  Coco loved the long message! Thanks - really appreciate time taken in doing so  :blink:

I've found alot out about shooting today. What you said about costs I already knew. Thing is I am not gonna pay all that money for a shotgun if opportunities to shoot are not there. I was told from someone of a wildfowling society today that they was sure I could join one of 8 fairly local societies once I got a shotgun license. But I'd prefer Rough Shooting. I'm sure this would help me in training my cocker spaniel for field trial work. Not found any Rough Shooting in my area yet though. I'm gonna try clay shooting soon. If i like it and can find shooting opportunities in my area then i will go for the shotgun and shooting with my cocker spaniel.

As to the firearms I was just wondering if anyone experianced in the area knew if i'd be best of with a Coterminous (shotgun & firearms) license or would just be okay with the shotgun one?

I'd love to know of the shoots around Barton on Humber if possible as I certainly know of the town!  :blink:

I really need to look into field trial competitions and what they entail exactly to be honest as that is what primarily I would like to gear Saffron my cocker spaniel up for.

Alongside that I would have to look into beating and picking if that would aid my Cocker better in field trial than rough shooting would.

heard of the www.nobs.org.uk website but that is one i have not looked at yet. Will have do so thank you.

Offline flashpanther

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Re: rough shooting & wildfowling - shotgun/firearms license
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2007, 01:20:23 AM »
i'd love to see some videos of field trial competitions to see exactly what it entails right now to be honest. It would help greatly!

Offline Coco

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There are no bad dogs, just bad people
Vicky, Wherry and Gizzymo

Offline flashpanther

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Re: rough shooting & wildfowling - shotgun/firearms license
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2007, 01:53:52 AM »
thanks coco. I actually printed the webpages from that links section 'getting starting'  and read them at work couple days ago. I've got that many web favourites saved from researching now that pages get swamped. I'll have to print off the other sections and see if they help. Found a useful link that will help on the field trial department. Dvd's of British Cocker Championship:

https://www.btowstore.com/epages/Store2.sf/?ObjectPath=/Shops/Store2.Shop1049/Products/2007BCC-DVD


so guess it is still back to finding rough shooting in my area and more knowledge of it and which firearm cert it would be best to get.

Offline Coco

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Re: rough shooting & wildfowling - shotgun/firearms license
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2007, 02:23:23 AM »
Obvious but have you tried youtube for film?

The friend who shoots your area; it is his family shoot so no use to you really and the breeder i'm not sure where he goes but he is trying to trial his dogs so i'm sure there are provisions in your area. Your local gun club could probably help you or even someone who runs dog training in the area. There are pleanty of guns around that way so i'd guess they are probably clued up

Definatly get Millomite's advice - IM him maybe.

Right, i'm supposed to be packing for holiday, drive to Stanstead in an hour so if anyone asks, you ain't seen me right?  ph34r

Good luck with the search
There are no bad dogs, just bad people
Vicky, Wherry and Gizzymo

Offline flashpanther

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Re: rough shooting & wildfowling - shotgun/firearms license
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2007, 02:41:18 AM »
Thank you Coco,

You have been ever so kind.
I'll take your advice & contact Millomite later this weekend.
youtube...  it crossed my mind but had so many web pages open i forgotten about it lol.

Have a great Holiday Coco!  :blink:

Cazzie

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Re: rough shooting & wildfowling - shotgun/firearms license
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2007, 08:36:38 AM »
Hi Flash Panther  :blink:

Not sure exactly how clued up you are but why would you need a Firearms for rough shooting? A firearm is mainly used for Vermin control & Deer Stalking  ;)

I think it is great that you want to start shooting and joining a club is the best step forward, also to get involved with your local shoot.

I would concentrate on either training and working your dog or shooting at the one time so you can concentrate on exactly what you are doing. It is extremely difficult for a novice shot to concentrate on what they are doing with a gun and working their dog at the same time, it has taken me 2 seasons to even be confident enough in shooting and handling my dogs.

I think if you get involved with a shoot and join an organisation such as Nicola suggested ie NOBs or the Sporting countryside there are people on there with vast experience in everything you are interested in and will point you in the right direction. ;)

Good luck and enjoy  :shades:

Offline Nicola

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Re: rough shooting & wildfowling - shotgun/firearms license
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2007, 10:06:52 AM »
One other thing to remember is that training a dog for shooting work and training it for Field Trials is actually 2 rather different things. The vast majority of good rough shooting/beating dogs, even those who have been doing it for a long time are not necessarily (in fact probably not) going to be FT standard dogs. Very few dogs (not to mention handlers) are FT material and this is usually evident before they are a year old (the dogs that is!). Generally a promising dog will be running in its first novice tests between 10 and 12 months if it is to go on to be a trialling dog. My bitch at just over 2 and a half years will never be a FT dog although she is a fantastic working dog. Likewise it's also unlikely that my 17 month old is FT material but again he is shaping up to be a very good working dog. My youngest is 6 months and I am hoping to perhaps try to get him into a novice spaniel test if his training goes well in the next few months and if I feel that I can get my own handling up the required standard. If you are interested in trials I would recommend you arrange a meeting with a professional gundog trainer so that they can assess you and your dog.


Sorry Nichola, I was messing around and forgot to post so it went on after you Doh! ::)  I'll just leave it as is though. Think you're answer was better :$ ph34r

Not at all, yours was more comprehensive, particularly regarding working a dog and shooting at the same time, I didn't actually say why I just stick to handling the dogs!
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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Offline flashpanther

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Re: rough shooting & wildfowling - shotgun/firearms license
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2007, 10:25:37 PM »
Cazzie: Take it I would only need a shotgun then from what you just say. I'm only vividly researching at moment into subject and might give it a go at a local clay shooting venue. will have to look at the NOB & sporting countryside sites etc for the field trial side more. If I liked shooting I would of course become proficient at a clay shooting course first and train saffron more with training dummies before taking up shooting 'with' her. Wildfowling looks an ideal place for introductions to shooting with her before moving on to rough shooting. IF I do get involved in shooting and of course IF i do find any Rough shooting in my area. Might think I am jumping the gun but only deeply researching at moment before taking any plunge. Far from any plunge at moment but trying to find out exactly what it would entail and opportunities for the future to see if right for me. Thank you for your time to help Cazzie and sharing your knowledge!

Nicola: Yes I am only starting to twig on since last night that it is two different things. My dog is 2 yrs now but of course I guess everyone would love to be at a level to enter their dog into field trial competitions. I wanted that option open when I got Saffron which is why I pursued a Cocker spaniel with an excellent pedigree of FTCH's. 39 in hers i think so atleast she would have the right breeding to start with and have it in her genes. Past two years she has been trained generally with a few tricks further down the line. She is a very willing learner. So now looking to get really involved in training for field and trial. Thought maybe rough shooting or something would it more enjoyable for myself and her at the same time as simulating what happens at field trial events. thank you ever so much for your help Nicola!

Can not express how greatful I am for everone here on COL who take their time to help others!


Do tell me if wrong. Appreciate all the help. Could do with a general quick and simple explanation of what is involved in a cocker spaniel field trial event to be honest. Picking is dogs trained for retrieving? Beating is purely flushing game out? during rough shooting wouldn't she experiance both? Is field trial events sperately assessing the beating and picking attributes of a dog? If you could clear this up in simple terms it would help enourmously as I can then research in deep from websites. Just need the areas cleared up in my head.

(sorry for any bad grammar, typos or if a sentence doesnt make sense - in a rush at moment before going to bed - had busy day with my dog)


Offline Nicola

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Re: rough shooting & wildfowling - shotgun/firearms license
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2007, 10:59:32 PM »
At a trial the dogs are tested on various elements which are marked individually to give an overall score. These include retrieves and hunting. When the judge tells you to commence you move the dog forward as you would on a shoot. The dog must quarter methodically - like a set of windscreen wipers -, miss nothing, drop to flush and shot, mark the birds, but also handle out to a blind retrieve if necessary and take a line on a runner if required then must retrieve and present properly to hand. This is a 'proper' spaniel FT which is run with live game. Tests are usually run with retrieving dummies but other than that are pretty much the same, the dog will be expected to hunt the same, decoy birds will be released and they will be required to make several retrieves, both seen and unseen and marks are given for hunting ability, dropping to shot, steadiness, marking ability, amount of handling needed, the quality of the actual retrieve and presentation, control and general obedience.

Field trials are a very serious business for those who are out 'on the circuit'. It's a very expensive lifestyle (I wouldn't call it a hobby for these guys, it's more like a way of life) with travelling, accommodation, entry fees etc. A FT isn't like a scurry at a game fair where anyone can turn up and have a go, you should really only consider entering if you think that you and your dog have a good chance of winning it as it is extremely difficult to even get a run in the first place, they tend to be very over subscribed and competition is fierce. Handlers and dogs already with wins behind them stand a better chance of getting a run in FTs than novices - this is why potential FT dogs usually start running in novice tests before they are a year old, if they don't perform well there then they will never make FT dogs and it would be a waste of time and money to pursue them further along these lines. If you enter a dog which isn't up to standard and/or your handling isn't up to scratch then chances are you will be eliminated pretty much instantly plus you will probably find it very difficult to get a run again (it's a small world amongst FT judges etc).
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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Offline wrenside

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Re: rough shooting & wildfowling - shotgun/firearms license
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2007, 11:48:31 PM »
Hi Andrew,
nice to see that you're intending to start training Saffron up to be a gundog, I'm sure she'll absolutely love it!  :D
It is very difficult trying to shoot and control an inexperienced dog at the same time. I would recommend that you train Saffron on the basics such as picking up dummies and having very good stop on command and recall at a distance. Once she's ansolutely sound on these then I would approach a local shoot, a small one preferably and ask if you could turn up with your novice dog and just let her watch the proceedings and listen to a few of the bangs etc.. most small, local shoots would be only too happy to allow you to do this but you should probably keep Saffron on lead for the first time as gamekeepers do not take kindly to over excited, newbie dogs (not saying that Saffron will be like this but you have to be careful if you ever want another invite along to the shoot or any other shoot in that area, as news travels fast in the small gamekeeper circles  :shades:)
If Saffron enjoys the experience and isn't frightened of the shots then take her along to a few more shoots where she is on lead and walked either behind the beating line or sat behind the line of guns, so that she settles and isn't too fired up by the newness of the situation.
Then if you can aquire some cold game from either a butchers or a gamekeeper and encourage her to pick the game at a retrieve. Then get Saffron onto some rough land, but make sure you've flushed any game that was there, and then allow her to hunt in front of you, staying within 15 foot of you and try your commands for stop and re call, if she's steady with these commands even when she can smell lots of tempting smells then she's becoming steady. After practising this and throwing a few retrieves to give her some practise in the interesting smelling surrounding I would get a friend who owns a shot gun, or a starting pistol to come and shoot the odd imaginary bird, the shot should not scare Saffron (as log as she is not gun shy) and she should immediately stop hunting and either sit or lie down waiting for her next command from you to either retrieve (you would throw a dummy) or carry on hunting, this does take quite a bit of practise.
Only once she's steady on these points should it be considered to actually shoot over her, or allow her to pick up and beat on a real shoot (she'll probably have a few slip ups as well as any new dog does, but she must be controlled otherwise she could be shot by accident or you may loose her chasing after a bunny rabbit  ph34r) I would also not carry a gun yourself for the first season that you're out with her because she'll need your utmost concentration to help guide her to do her job to the best of her ability. Once she's relatively proficient at being a good gundog you'll have no problems with finding shoots who will have you help pick up or beat for them  :D

Once she's got what it takes I would then think about getting yourself a shot gun because untill she's up to scratch you won't have a chance to use it, unless you just practise on clays (which is a great idea  :blink:) However shooting schools do have guns that you can borrow I believe, but I think you still need a licence  :police:

The gun dog book that I metioned to you has all of the commands and training techniques to make Saffron a safe and reliable gundog  :blink:

I rarely shoot over Bella myself as I'm usually handling her. My dad and his collegues are the guns on most occasions. Although we're lucky that we have our own rough land that we can train Bella on and shoot on.

I have to say that finding a place on a rough shooting syndicate nowadays is like finding a needle in a haystack, suddenly rough shooting has become very fashionable and rather expensive  :-\

I think that if you go for it and put some hard graft into getting some expereince and specific training behind her, Saffron could be an excellent gundog and maybe even attend some Field Tials and tests  :D

Good luck with her, she's a cracker!

Best wishes

Mary