CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: plangton on June 14, 2016, 09:17:35 AM
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Hi everyone i have posted a few times, i think i'm coming to the end of my search.
I have found a breeder with a low COI score of 1.3. I've been looking at the parentage on cockerspanieldatabase the mother appears to come from all show ( does not give a strain, so i assume they are show) however some of the father's great grandparent and beyond have working strain in them ( stated in the family tree)
will this affect the puppy in any way?
thanks all.
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Good for you- sounds very hopeful! Your query is sort of unanswerable though... ;) Every ancestor affects the puppy. And the working strain is one of the reasons you've found a low CoI? Maybe anyway. It could make for an excellent parentage- health checks also done? (I'm assuming you're not wanting to to work or show? Even then in North Wales I've seen some wonderful blue roan shows working away with the best of them.)
I've now owned two shows and two working cockers. Of course these are all cockers and come from the same original gene pool so what they have in common is far greater than the differences. My experience is workers are a bit more 'driven' and I have to admit my tricolour worker was a crazy puppy, like a jumping bean with teeth. My red boy was calmer and less 'naughty' not that they ever are, really. Both workers were easier to train and more inclined to want to please BUT that might not be true- maybe I just got more and more attuned to the breed and what they needed. I know they were all typical Velcro dogs who just wanted to be not just with you, but inside your clothes if possible!
So apart from a few physical things (workers have a finer, flatter coat usually, wider heads and ears set a bit higher on head) you're getting a good mix I'd say. Lucky lucky you! :blink:
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Well I hope you find the puppy of your dreams, sounds like a good start if all the health checks are also clear. Did you research the COI on the Kennel Club site ? Anybody recommended the breeder ?
As Daw has said its difficult to predict how your pup will turn out, workers tend to have higher energy levels and need plenty of exercise whereas show types are sometimes less demanding - but be prepared for a whirlwind whichever. My friend got a show/worker cross at Christmas and its a lovely pup, Harvey, who fits in perfectly with his 2 show types. Another friend has a worker that does agility and shoots off like a guided missile when we are out walking but always comes back to the whistle and 'checks in' frequently. However they are all expert at begging for crisps in the pub and mugging the unwary eating a sausage roll, thats fixed in their genes :luv:
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If your main aim is to get a pup with low coi, then great. But in terms of what you may get temperament and conformation-wise it's a bit of a lucky dip as the pups are unlikely to have been bred with form or function as the focus. I'd not buy a mixed strain cocker as you could end up with a great family pet. But equally you may end up with a less trainable woolly hyper sort. Sorry if this seems harsh, but only my opinion - I'd stay clear of breeders with no aims to improve the breed either as working dogs (if working strain), or decent examples of the breed standard with good conformation and merry temperament (if show strain). Breeding to produce 'nice pets' with no thought given to any other aspects can be just as easily achieved by crossing a couple of 'nice' dogs of any breeds and producing a designer special...
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Hi
You sound like you have researched very well :D
If you are happy with the health tests carried out, have visited the breeder and happy with the situation, her set up and her dogs, she has satisfied all your questions and you hers, then I would go with what you want.
My Reese has show champions on his mother's side and on his father's mothers side but on his father's male line a few generations back is a working cocker. Reese is 2.2% I had researched the breed and wanted the healthiest happiest cocker I could find, i speont a long time looking for a breeder and found a lovely breeder who cares deeply for her dogs, She spent a couple of years trying to find and buy the right stud dog for her lines and was very happy with his confirmation, health and temperament, so she had thought very carefully about trying to improve her future puppies.
I was so very sad to read the post from geordietyke and the problems she had with her 2 previous well bred puppies, so who really is to say that introducing one working strain dog so far back has/hasn't made improvements. I think it's down to personal taste and what you want your puppy for.
I hope you find what you are looking for soon and look forward to lots of pictures. :luv
Take care
Tracy & Reese
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My girl is working but has a sprinkle of show in her lines going back too. I wouldn't change her for the world, she is everything I could have wanted. If all the health checks have been done on this puppy and temperament of parents is good, then I wouldn't let this small thing be a concern.
I actually don't see an issue with mixing a bit of worker and show to get a dual purpose dog, particularly as a pet. I love the biddable nature of a worker but I think adding a bit of show into the mix can help to reduce the highly strung nature that some working lines have. I think the breeding of dual purpose (working and show) Labradors has created some really lovely dogs, particularly suitable to pet homes.
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I actually don't see an issue with mixing a bit of worker and show to get a dual purpose dog, particularly as a pet. I love the biddable nature of a worker but I think adding a bit of show into the mix can help to reduce the highly strung nature that some working lines have. I think the breeding of dual purpose (working and show) Labradors has created some really lovely dogs, particularly suitable to pet homes.
sorry, but I don't agree with mixing the two. there are working strains with less trial breeding in them that can be quieter/less manic - you don't need to mix in show to get that. the two strains are so different now they may as well be different breeds and mixing them to water down working ability so you have a lazier pet to fit in with a busy household doesn't improve anything IMO. Working strain dogs should work and show types are bred in the main as loving and very sweet fun pets. There are plenty of breeds suited to all different requirements and doing your research properly will find that breed/type. Messing about with established types to morph them into something else doesn't make sense to me. But perhaps that's just me.
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To me they are still ultimately the same breed, it is not the same as crossing a springer and cocker, and therefore I don't have a problem with it. I don't 'work' either of my dogs in the true sense of the word, but they have an active outdoor life, and have done basic gundog and agility classes. I like the look and biddable nature of all 'working' strain dogs, but because they don't have a 'working' life with me I don't want a dog who wants to be busy all the time. I think finding 'quieter' wcs is actually quite hard, I think I have been very lucky with my girl as she is just perfectly suited to the life she has. I think I might have a difficult job trying to replace her and hope that is a long way off yet!
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But werent even Springers out of the same gene pool?
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But werent even Springers out of the same gene pool?
Not sure what your point is here - can you explain?
All dogs came from one breed if you go back far enough.....
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sorry, but I don't agree with mixing the two. there are working strains with less trial breeding in them that can be quieter/less manic - you don't need to mix in show to get that. the two strains are so different now they may as well be different breeds and mixing them to water down working ability so you have a lazier pet to fit in with a busy household doesn't improve anything IMO. Working strain dogs should work and show types are bred in the main as loving and very sweet fun pets. There are plenty of breeds suited to all different requirements and doing your research properly will find that breed/type. Messing about with established types to morph them into something else doesn't make sense to me. But perhaps that's just me.
No, it isn't just you Emilyoliver. I don't agree with mixing the lines either. In 'theory' you could get an ideal dog but you could also end up with the worst traits of both :fear2: Looking at litters of cockapoos it is clear that you don't always get what you bred for!
My two girls come from a top trailing/working background. They were bred for their extremely biddable natures that makes them a pleasure to work with and a joy to live with. Their breeder has spent a life time actively selecting what he wants in a puppy. I don't work them yet they have adapted perfectly to my lifestyle. Looking at their coi it is quite high at 16% and if you were selecting a puppy based just on a low coi you may have rejected them outright. When getting another puppy I will be looking for similar breeding to my girls. A coi like theirs would not put me off at all.
As Emilyoliver has said, why mix the strains to produce a 'pet' litter with a low coi when there are enough pet breeds around as it is.
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Since the term 'breed' doesn't have a scientific definition it seems pointless to argue over it. As for working v show strains there are many shows at present working (I think there's a club for enthusiasts) and many workers living happily as pets. Dual purpose cockers probably can do either which seems ideal. I've no idea what people mean by the worst of both types. Could someone tell me what this dog would have? Two heads? :o
There is another issue which no one has mentioned. As they say in law cui bono? Who gets the benefit? In this case there are a lot of people out there pocketing a lot of cash 'keeping the breed pure.' No knowledge of genetics and half the time not even doing the paltry health checks available...and that means ultimately dogs (and their owners) suffer from the results of ill health and early death. There are people on this forum who've bought 'well-bred' cockers and had to cope with the misery.
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I don't agree that a crossing a cocker and poodle is same as crossing working and show cocker.
I am just saying that I wouldn't not have a puppy which had both working and show strains in, if it had a had had all relevant health tests and was from carefully selected parents with good temperaments.
You can get some 'awful traits' in a puppy from having both show or both working strain parents in them, so not sure how it makes a difference if you have both strains in the breeding!
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My last cocker was a top pedigree and a most beautiful example of the breed. Unfortunately I eventually lost him with severe aggression issues. Yes, you guessed it, he had a COI of 16 which I didn't understand at the time. He had undescended testicles and was the only survivor of a very small litter, a classic sign of genetic problems. Oh the benefits of hindsight, what heartache it would have saved.
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Mixing strains with no purpose other than producing nice pets smacks of money making and irresponsible breeding IMO. I have both strains I love them both. Each type was selected and bred carefully - all 3 come from very good stock. My show types were shown and won classes (and competed in agility, tracking and obedience). My working strain dogs are worked on game as they were bred to (and compete in agility and working tests outside shooting season). If you want a working strain dog, then be prepared to work it. If you want a pet with typical fab cocker temperament and great looks who will be fun to do stuff with get a show type from breeders who breed for conformation and temperament and who can verify this through having their dogs assessed by breed judges. If you just want a 0% coi then get a mixed breed of anything nice and friendly whatever size and shape you like. (There are plenty of cocker breeders producing either strain that have their dogs health tested, so that is not an issue).
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each of us has our choice - I chose 2 beautifully strong, healthy, biddable working cockers. One has a COI of around 8, the other is line bred and has a COI of 15.6.
I would choose dogs from those lines and breeding time and time again. My oldest is 11 and has had no health issues all his life - his only vet visits were due to injuries. My youngest is nearly 2 and is in rude health :lol2: Both have exemplary temperaments (temperament is a huge part of their breeders remit). Health testing and COI is PART of a breeding package. A good breeder takes everything into account.
And yes, I agree wholeheartedly with Emilyoliver.
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My last cocker was a top pedigree and a most beautiful example of the breed. Unfortunately I eventually lost him with severe aggression issues. Yes, you guessed it, he had a COI of 16 which I didn't understand at the time. He had undescended testicles and was the only survivor of a very small litter, a classic sign of genetic problems. Oh the benefits of hindsight, what heartache it would have saved.
My youngest has a COI of close to 16. I would choose him again and again.
You chose a singleton, small size and with undescended testicles - and yes hindsight can save heartache. It could have been as a result of congenital issues, and maybe the aggression was also part of some part of developmental issue in the womb. Whatever you think of the breeder, they wouldn't be breeding from these dogs if this was the type of litter they produce.
As for undescended testicles the thinking is that is is mostly hereditary but the gene has never been identified. It can be congenital as well.
It is a heartbreaking situation for you but thousands of dogs with higher COI's are perfectly healthy.
Out of interest what COI does your new Field Spaniel puppy have?
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Hi Helen, yes we were very very unlucky, and the first time breeder was also heartbroken over the loss of her other 2 pups. As you say, a high COI does not by itself mean problems will occur, but can increase the risk and may have done so in this case. I have chosen a fieldie now despite the breed having a COI of around 20. Of course a lower COI would have been preferable but wasn't an option. However I am sure of the health and temperament of both parents and grandparents (and other relatives) and have complete confidence in the breeder.
I will have another cocker, they are my first love, but I will do my research more carefully than last time.
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I'd be really interested in the research on these thousands of dogs with high CoI's and lack of health compromising. Because the stats all seem to be pointing one way currently: inbreeding from incest equals poor outcomes. As I've said on another threat any single individual can survive amazing biological trauma against the odds- but whether we should be subjecting any dog to even mild jeopardy is an ethical question in itself. :-\ (Could you give me your reference concerning your assertion please Helen? where did it appear? Is it peer reviewed?)
As for dismissing the health problems just described as something that could've happened in the womb, well once again apply the reality test. We know many health problems are inherited. We know even behavioural problems can be traced in some lines of cocker. We know people are still having to part with animals under heartbreaking circumstances because of them. Hard to let the breeders of these dogs off the hook therefore.
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I wouldn't want a Cocker that was something like a 50/50 mix of working and show lines because I'd feel uncertain about what I'd be getting in terms of conformation, coat and working drive. I'd also be questioning in my mind the motivation of the breeder for breeding such a litter, even if the CoI was low and all health tests done.
However, if the pedigree was mainly show or working and had some ancestors of the opposite type in one line several generations back I really wouldn't be hugely concerned. My Louis is a show type, but on his dam's side has one working Cocker 4 generations back (and obviously the ancestors of that dog back from there). I don't know enough about genetics to be able to predict what influence his 6.25% working blood might have on him, but on balance I decided not to let it worry me.
As it happens the only thing about him that I feel may have been influenced by his working ancestors is that he doesn't have quite as profuse a coat as some show types. That was a bit of a hindrance when I was showing him, but it enables me to keep him in a handstripped show type coat even now when he's "just" a pet dog without having to put loads of effort in.