CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Pearly on August 22, 2017, 08:52:45 PM
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It seems to have gone in a blink but after 2.5 years, at long last I see the improvement in Coral, so much so that I trust her :luv:
She no longer runs off and would rather stay with me - she's completely focused when out working and takes hand signals as well as whistle. Retrieving dummies is no issue, marks, straight out and straight back to hand. She will stop at distance and stays there until released - however long that is.
Saturday on the walk she was really good. Stayed close when asked, hunted well when asked and played/didn't hunt when released. The only misdemeanour was due to me not paying attention and Coral scenting a pheasant, which she duly flushed then chased - but - came back quickly. Still a work in progress on steadiness.....when faced with game!
Sunday she worked well in a local wood, had 3 retrieves (all difficult, including a go-back which 2 months ago she couldn't have done without hunting every inch of woodland on the way...)
Yesterday. We headed up to North Wales for help with steadiness and stock training. She was sat up by a gate while a flock of sheep were herded past her at some speed - and didn't move a paw. The sheep were moved around the field, around her and she sat fast :o the trainer then moved us onto pigeons which she flushed two, sat on shot but wouldn't retrieve :huh: (flushed a third and chased it >:D ) so work in progress......after which she went in to the pen. Flushed a rabbit, was moving so fast she ran through the stop whistle but.....checked herself and corrected back to where the whistle was blown! To say we were both pleased was an understatement :clapping:
I now need to work on her retrieve of game - she didn't want to pick up a warm rabbit the previous training session and this time the warm pigeons. I currently have a partridge defrosting to do some training tomorrow and suspect she will pick it up ok - any hints on getting her to retrieve warm game?
We still have a long way to go but I wanted to share - not least for anyone else out there with a wayward, self rewarding, self hunting spaniel......it can be done, it just takes time and allowance for a lot of growing up/maturing. She has far better impulse control now, noticeably better in the last month - Coral is now 31 months old!
It's unlikely she will be out working this side of Christmas but I have hope that January will see her out for a few drives over a few days :angel:
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Well it sounds like good progress, cant offer advice on the warm game as I chucked eze in at the deep end from dummie to huge cock pheasant. Why will you not be working this side of Xmas ?
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Well done! Excellent progress 😀. Sorry if I missed it, but will she retrieve cold game?
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Well it sounds like good progress, cant offer advice on the warm game as I chucked eze in at the deep end from dummie to huge cock pheasant. Why will you not be working this side of Xmas ?
Thanks both :D
She's not steady enough yet and I don't want to rush her into working until I know she's 100% ;).
She has picked warm game before, also cold game but not since the start of the year. I took all the pressure off to focus on basic obedience which has paid dividends although at the fist "summer school" in April she had little interest in retrieving dummies, blinking to hunt on which is what she is doing with warm game :-\ the difference now is that I can pull her off hunting and redirect her onto the rabbit/bird plus she is marking them which she wouldn't in April (only focussed on me). Appreciate pigeons have a lot of feathers but she has picked those in the past as well!
Michelle - she did retrieve the birds when under pressure from another dog or really wound up /excited by the trainer!
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Its a fine line steadiness, is it not.
Sounds like you have steadied her so well she is now unsure of when she is allowed / supposed to "go" personally I reckon once she is in to game her instincts and drive will kick in. One of the best quotes I know and found to be true is "birds train bird dogs" you know your dog but if it was me I would get her into birds soon as and work it through.
You say se lost interest in retrieving dummies, did you stop her on whistle too often ? Or redirect her off a marked maybe ? I know that if I stop her too often mid retrieve she gets confused and starts popping.
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If she's picked game before then she should again. Perhaps get her retrieving in a bit of a boring spot like a sports field and put out a variety of things (including the game whatever it is) in one spot so she can see them and get her going out directly to them with enthusiasm, repetitively. That way she will learn that when you send her she picks whatever is out there. And she shouldn't be so inclined to hunt and confuse the two activities. Make the retrieving a separate exercise for now rather than part of hunting up scenario. Am doing this with my puppy at the moment on alternate days, mostly because I want to keep him confident retrieving. he's had a pigeon in tights :005: so far and had a sniff then picked it fine. Otherwise I use rabbit skin dummies, plastic floating ones, tennis balls - a selection of items so he doesn't always expect a standard dummy. Hope that helps a bit, but I feel your pain having had a very similar type of dog to Coral (as you know).
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Its a fine line steadiness, is it not.
Sounds like you have steadied her so well she is now unsure of when she is allowed / supposed to "go" personally I reckon once she is in to game her instincts and drive will kick in. One of the best quotes I know and found to be true is "birds train bird dogs" you know your dog but if it was me I would get her into birds soon as and work it through.
You say se lost interest in retrieving dummies, did you stop her on whistle too often ? Or redirect her off a marked maybe ? I know that if I stop her too often mid retrieve she gets confused and starts popping.
Have thought about this all day! She definitely knows when to go, she marks well goes straight out and then just stands over the bird or plucks it! I know there is an element of "I don't know what to do with it yet" but she has retrieved birds in the past and did a couple on Sunday - she knew she did well as she was praised and rewarded with a treat (in case she thought I was taking away her food source...)
This evening we've been to a favourite field to try with the defrosted partridge- only it was a very small pheasant when unwrapped :lol: she messed about, a lot! She was intent on hunting and I know that field will have mice and rabbits but not enough scent in the area to distract her - it was definitely an act - her body language and eyes gave it away. She wouldn't retrieve anything let alone her favourite dummy and definitely not the bird. To be fair it does have a hint of freezer burn but is fully defrosted and floppy! After making her sit up for c10 minutes she walked back towards the gate, to heel, I dropped the bird sat her up, sent her back and she brought it to me. She can do it, she's just choosing not to. Not sure how I get her to pick up again?
I ended on a high note after she picked the bird up - it's now in the bin as it looks a bit worse for wear. I'm not planning on doing any more training with her now until our next day out which is on partridge - that should be an interesting one as the breeder of her dam will be there as will the breeder of her grandad on the sires side! No pressure then.........!
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It sounds very odd. To me its as though she feels under pressure for some reason. I still think she would pick up no problem in the right context ie on a game day. I still say get her into some birds, if you could get someone to shoot over her I reckon her instinct would kick in. Have you access to a dummy launcher maybe that would replicate a shot bird and gee her up a bit.
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If she's choosing not to retrieve, and would rather hunt maybe let her do that? Are you planning to beat with her? If hunting is what she prefers, it's perfect :D. We work on a small syndicate shoot and luckily can choose what to do most days. But it's not very often pip gets to hunt, flush and retrieve in one sequence (unless it's beaters' day). I think it's easy to get fixated on the training aspects that include all the elements, when actually we use just one. Think spaniels only really do it 'all' either trialling or rough shooting. Otherwise it's one or the other.
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This is an excellent post. If your primarily beating then is the retrieving issue a big deal ?
Hunting is as Emily alludes to the primary function (as you know) and if that is what she excells at then accept you have a very good beating dog and just work with that.
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Ideally, Coral will be an all round dog - roosting after the season, rabbitting (walked up) partridge retrieving tho to be fair that's only one day - we were invited back picking up after last years day when she retrieved 11 out of the beet field on her own..........this is why I know she can do it although it wasn't under control and told me she was far too young for the day - I chose not to take her out for the rest of last season and bring cold game home for training instead. She didn't get much retrieving up to the start of summer school in April.
One pheasant shoot is a beat one, stand one when she has the opportunity to pick up the others are all driven and depending on who has turned out we will be beating, flag /pushing on or picking up. If I let her just hunt she gets bored and seeks her own entertainment as I found on Saturday, she does need the occasional retrieve as a reward :-\
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In that case I stand by my earlier post, she will do what you require in the "context" of a shoot day. Birds train bird dogs, as they say 😉
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In that case I stand by my earlier post, she will do what you require in the "context" of a shoot day. Birds train bird dogs, as they say 😉
I'd go with this. She either doesn't like the training and is bored doing it, or is genuinely disobedient/self serving if she knows what to do but won't. Coral is frighteningly similar to Jude in being so very hard to work out and understand. At nearly 3 you may have to accept her as she is now. You have her under control now which is probably the most important part. Unless you can guarantee someone to shoot over her regularly, you're not going to be guaranteed a retrieve as a reward after hunting. And if you're expected to pick up as and when then you may have to just wing it on the day and hope she does it. Some dogs adapt well to a variety of roles, but others just don't. And some are just unfathomable as to why they do what they do/or not.
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Slip a dead bird into a length of cut down ladies tights this tends to give the dog more confidence on picking up something with feathers, throw encourage run in or send immediately, make it just about fun for a few retrieves with no obedience she should get her confidence back.
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In that case I stand by my earlier post, she will do what you require in the "context" of a shoot day. Birds train bird dogs, as they say 😉
I'd go with this. She either doesn't like the training and is bored doing it, or is genuinely disobedient/self serving if she knows what to do but won't. Coral is frighteningly similar to Jude in being so very hard to work out and understand. At nearly 3 you may have to accept her as she is now. You have her under control now which is probably the most important part. Unless you can guarantee someone to shoot over her regularly, you're not going to be guaranteed a retrieve as a reward after hunting. And if you're expected to pick up as and when then you may have to just wing it on the day and hope she does it. Some dogs adapt well to a variety of roles, but others just don't. And some are just unfathomable as to why they do what they do/or not.
Yes I think the lack of a reward (in the dogs mind) is a major factor. I am lucky that eze is so very ball obsessed she will do virtually anything for a ball. But the one thing that trumps a ball is a bird, the problem most of us have is the availability of giving them a bird to retrieve as you allude to Emily. I have never ever used cold or warm game but I suspect that the use of birds in this way is to a degree meaningless without the "context" of shoot day. As in the sights, sounds and scent of a shoot day, in fact could game used in this way be confusing for the dog without the "context" and therefore ineffectual in training the retrieve. ??
Each dog is different of course but I know that eze can get confused if things are not carried out in a certain way / routine.
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Slip a dead bird into a length of cut down ladies tights this tends to give the dog more confidence on picking up something with feathers, throw encourage run in or send immediately, make it just about fun for a few retrieves with no obedience she should get her confidence back.
I agree with Jeff, mix it up a bit and let her run in. You can get steadiness back later when she is keen to retrieve.
Out if interest pearly, do you allow run ins to anything at anytime such as balls or is he expected to always be steady ?
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Slip a dead bird into a length of cut down ladies tights this tends to give the dog more confidence on picking up something with feathers, throw encourage run in or send immediately, make it just about fun for a few retrieves with no obedience she should get her confidence back.
I agree with Jeff, mix it up a bit and let her run in. You can get steadiness back later when she is keen to retrieve.
Out if interest pearly, do you allow run ins to anything at anytime such as balls or is he expected to always be steady ?
I've just spent 2 years getting her to be steady.......but happy to do that again if it's going to get her "going" on birds.....yesterday evening she did run in and was unchecked/not chastised for it in the hope she'd pick up but she blinked and ran on/hunted. It is hard work as you know Michelle but I also see the light at the end of the tunnel as up to recently that run on/hunting would have been in the next county let alone field 😉
She had a huge reward for picking the bird up - tummy rubs, jumped into my arms (top reward) and venison sausage so she associates bringing the bird back and good things happening
I have really good neighbours. They let both dogs out for me when I can't get back from work and will often take them for an on lead walk for 15-20 minutes. Today I learnt that both were out of the house for 3 hours yesterday afternoon! It's no wonder Coral didn't want to train ph34r she was probably worn out from walking (on lead) for the afternoon and explains why she just lay down next to the bird. I've had a message this evening to say they've been out for similar this afternoon - I currently have two dogs asleep in the kitchen and I've been home As long as it's taken me to write this!
We have a "pet" weekend coming up with no opportunity for training; Wednesday I'll defrost another bird and pop in a leg of tights as suggested (thanks Jeff) and ask my neighbours to not take them out for so long :o it's the weekend after that we have the training day - between the two she won't have any retrieves to take some of the pressure off
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Slip a dead bird into a length of cut down ladies tights this tends to give the dog more confidence on picking up something with feathers, throw encourage run in or send immediately, make it just about fun for a few retrieves with no obedience she should get her confidence back.
I agree with Jeff, mix it up a bit and let her run in. You can get steadiness back later when she is keen to retrieve.
Out if interest pearly, do you allow run ins to anything at anytime such as balls or is he expected to always be steady ?
I've just spent 2 years getting her to be steady.......but happy to do that again if it's going to get her "going" on birds.....yesterday evening she did run in and was unchecked/not chastised for it in the hope she'd pick up but she blinked and ran on/hunted. It is hard work as you know Michelle but I also see the light at the end of the tunnel as up to recently that run on/hunting would have been in the next county let alone field 😉
She had a huge reward for picking the bird up - tummy rubs, jumped into my arms (top reward) and venison sausage so she associates bringing the bird back and good things happening
I have really good neighbours. They let both dogs out for me when I can't get back from work and will often take them for an on lead walk for 15-20 minutes. Today I learnt that both were out of the house for 3 hours yesterday afternoon! It's no wonder Coral didn't want to train ph34r she was probably worn out from walking (on lead) for the afternoon and explains why she just lay down next to the bird. I've had a message this evening to say they've been out for similar this afternoon - I currently have two dogs asleep in the kitchen and I've been home As long as it's taken me to write this!
We have a "pet" weekend coming up with no opportunity for training; Wednesday I'll defrost another bird and pop in a leg of tights as suggested (thanks Jeff) and ask my neighbours to not take them out for so long :o it's the weekend after that we have the training day - between the two she won't have any retrieves to take some of the pressure off
Out of interest does she "bring you stuff" at home, slippers , T towels that sort of thing ??
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Hi Ian, yes - Coral generally has something in her mouth, often meets me with a gift and will frantically search for one when I get home from work - she always takes something to go outside with her. I have quite a few shoes that used to be a pair...the other one is buried in the garden somewhere!
Slippers, socks and whatever else she's picked up are usually in her basket.
I suspect she was just plain tired last night......
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I think you're in a bit of a difficult situation with your lovely neighbours. It's really nice of them to walk your dogs for you, but particularly with a difficult dog, it may not be a good idea. As you've discovered, coral may be less interested in training if she's been out all day. I wonder also whether it may be affecting her relationship with you. Neither my mum nor my dog walker take my dogs anywhere as I don't want them instructing them to do anything. Perhaps I'm a control freak, who knows. But I also want my dogs to know that along with all instructions, all the best things come from me. I don't want any of it 'diluted' by others taking them out or playing with them. I take them out at 6am and again at 6pm to either exercise or train something. They are let out of the kennel at midday and 'sat' with either in the house or in the garden. No walks or anything. Depends on your relationship with your neighbours, but I'd be asking them to just let the dogs into the garden. At least you'd have an idea then of whether the 3hr walks were impacting on coral's other training.
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They are normally pretty good and just take them round the block - they don't play with Coral, just Pearl and I know they don't do any retrieves at home or out on walks plus she's on lead and walks to heel beautifully for her. It's the last few days of school holidays which is why they have been out for longer. I think it's a bit like grandchildren for grandparents - really well behaved unless the parents are there.....!
Just had her out in the garden with a dried pheasant wing - retrieved it straight out and back :luv: will try the whole bird/stocking on Wednesday and back to just a wing if it's too much for her :huh:
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They are normally pretty good and just take them round the block - they don't play with Coral, just Pearl and I know they don't do any retrieves at home or out on walks plus she's on lead and walks to heel beautifully for her. It's the last few days of school holidays which is why they have been out for longer. I think it's a bit like grandchildren for grandparents - really well behaved unless the parents are there.....!
Just had her out in the garden with a dried pheasant wing - retrieved it straight out and back :luv: will try the whole bird/stocking on Wednesday and back to just a wing if it's too much for her :huh:
For the last month or so Lynn has been child minding 7 & 3 yr old (friends kids) I got to the point of telling Lynn to put eze in her run whilst they were here as I did not care much for the way they interacted with her. Constant ball throws and an attempt t copy Lynn and myself training her, constant commands to sit for no reason etc etc. This close to the season I cant afford to have eze ignoring commands and getting confused. I know there only children BUT ...
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This weekend saw the last day of the summer school with a guest appearance from Peter Jones - no pressure then!
Coral was a wee superstar! I hardly needed the whistle while she was hunting, she flushed birds, stopped on shot and brought the first two partridge back to hand, presenting the second beautifully - the latter not required, just that she does it naturally! She did blink the third but in her defence it had been thrown into reeds and was deeply embedded and after trying to get it out she carried on hunting. Having said that, she stopped when told, went back and then retrieved the same bird when it was thrown into the open :D
After that, we had a session in the rabbit pen, where she was wonderful! She turned every time asked but to be fair didn't need the whistle much as she was following body language (no hands needed!) she stopped when asked and redirected when told.
All in, a very good end to a training course which has seen her go from a "wild as a hedgehog" dog, running off when she felt like it, blinking dummies to hunt on and ignoring the stop whistle to a fairly steady (untested with game distraction) obedient dog who actually wants to work with me!
There really is light at the end of that tunnel :angel:
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Do you mean Peter Jones the Dragon?
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Do you mean Peter Jones the Dragon?
Errrm, no! That would be Mr Jones the cocker spaniel legend! He has the Maesydderwn and Wetlands lines producing some of the best trials dogs in the UK today - he still has the claim of 7 FTCH from Scimitar and 2 Grand Champions to his name. It was a real privilege to meet him and hear his stories.
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Do you mean Peter Jones the Dragon?
Errrm, no! That would be Mr Jones the cocker spaniel legend! He has the Maesydderwn and Wetlands lines producing some of the best trials dogs in the UK today - he still has the claim of 7 FTCH from Scimitar and 2 Grand Champions to his name. It was a real privilege to meet him and hear his stories.
Well done you and Coral!! So nice to read your progress reports. And lucky you getting to meet Mr Jones and have your dog assessed by him. Would love to have the same opportunity as my pup is Wetlands Abe x Maesydderwen Skimmer and is something a bit special (well I think so anyway ;))
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Brilliant 👍
Well done sounds like you have a working spaniel to be proud of, but be proud of yourself too 👍
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he he I can see now why you wanted to impress :shades:
Looking at Scimitar's mating record (200+ in 11 years) surprised he had enough energy for anything else ;) he certainly was a busy boy
Branston is one of his descendants on his mother's side so was able to work back on My KC
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Scimitar is Teals grandsire, her Sire is Spartan son of Scimitar another of Peters FTCH,s , Peter is a legend in working cockers and has bred some outstanding dogs along with being a great handler
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Scimitar is Teals grandsire, her Sire is Spartan son of Scimitar another of Peters FTCH,s , Peter is a legend in working cockers and has bred some outstanding dogs along with being a great handler
It's obvious he knows his stuff
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Ooh, Spartan is Titch's grandsire, (sire maesydderwen midnight). No wonder he learns so well (well, since he was 1). Nice to hear he has relatives on this board - but sounds as if every other working cocker we meet might be related! :005:
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It maybe harder to find working cockers with out Maesydderwn lines somewhere in the pedigree :D
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It maybe harder to find working cockers with out Maesydderwn lines somewhere in the pedigree :D
This is very true! :005:
Today's update:
We've just had a few days in Pembrokeshire, mixed weather and mostly beaches for the dogs to get some pre season exercise. All under control, with some lovely tennis ball retrieves stopping on the way out and sent on. Lots of distraction with pesky low flying seagulls.......which did prove too much of a distraction for Coral today but all in, that's not bad after 4 days with no naughtiness! Today was a woodland "walk" where she did some very nice seen and two blinds which were placed at the edge of the path and on "go back" she really did, worked the wind and found both. Followed by an hour on the beach. Funnily enough, all four are asleep at the moment!
When I can, I'll post some photos of the black one - she's become a real poser and if she sees the camera out now sits at distance and waits for her picture to be taken........it's better than the stop whistle :lol:
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Coral in the woods yesterday
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170910/6559e806ba3797887354af4d850d68af.jpg)
Pearl and Coral
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170910/c797cc09743dabe9e3a2615e7e30c6ad.jpg)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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great photos its so good when it all starts coming together