CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: bessymate4eva on October 26, 2017, 02:04:43 PM
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Chester has started to guard in my brothers bedroom ph34r. It all seemed to start getting progressively worse after we took him to the vet to get his teeth sorted. He seems to guard everything in the room im not sure if he is actually guarding my brother as he seems fine with him. He won't let anyone else in the room. He growls and gets really distressed. Even if he isnt in the room he will run past you to get there first and then start to growl. I've tried throwing the treats at him gradually (as this has worked before) but it doesn't seem to settle him. He has had behaviour problems in the past but nothing like this. Does anyone know any good behaviourist in the northumberland area? Also probably a silly question but how can you tell if a behaviourist is a reputable one?
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Just wondered if there is something like a toy or treat hidden in the room, like under the bed or furniture that he is guarding?
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We have looked and can't see anything. Although when my brother went to work this morning he guarded for a little bit after then suddenly wasn't bothered about guarding the room at all :huh:.
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My first thought was that it might be something in the room too.
I would try to stop him going in there to be honest, so that he is unable to go into guard mode in the first place. If this isn't possible just with the door then maybe a toddler gate over the entrance. Of course that may not be a complete fix as he may choose to guard that area instead.
If he is fine with your brother then it sounds like he has to have the role of telling the dog what is acceptable behaviour and instructing him away from the area if he starts displaying that sort of behaviour. This is how we used to work things with Ollie anyway...if he was on the sofa or bed next to one of us and started guarding from the other coming to the sofa then the person coming to the sofa could not safely tell him to get down without escalating the situation. The person already sitting there could however make it very clear that the behaviour was not acceptable and order him down and to the kitchen for time out. If he ever showed this sort of behaviour we were strict about not allowing him up again for some time and now it's not a problem behaviour for him at all.
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My first thought was that it might be something in the room too.
I would try to stop him going in there to be honest, so that he is unable to go into guard mode in the first place. If this isn't possible just with the door then maybe a toddler gate over the entrance. Of course that may not be a complete fix as he may choose to guard that area instead.
If he is fine with your brother then it sounds like he has to have the role of telling the dog what is acceptable behaviour and instructing him away from the area if he starts displaying that sort of behaviour. This is how we used to work things with Ollie anyway...if he was on the sofa or bed next to one of us and started guarding from the other coming to the sofa then the person coming to the sofa could not safely tell him to get down without escalating the situation. The person already sitting there could however make it very clear that the behaviour was not acceptable and order him down and to the kitchen for time out. If he ever showed this sort of behaviour we were strict about not allowing him up again for some time and now it's not a problem behaviour for him at all.
Thankyou for the advice Hoover we will see if that works with him hopefully 😊
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Sorry you are having problems with Chester guarding, living with Harry who is a guarder I know it an be challenging and sometimes worrying when they show behaviours that frankly look quite scary!
With the greatest respect to other posters I don't think its as simple as letting him know it unacceptable behaviour and putting him in the kitchen, in Harrys case any attempt at handling would escalate the situation and potentially lead to a nip/bite from him. You ask about good behaviourists, which is key you do need someone experienced with guarding behaviour and cockers who can see what is going on. Its worth contacting Topbarks (Mark) who is possibly too far from you but he may be able to recommend someone with the right skills who is more local to you.
hope you can get something sorted so you are all happier :luv:
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Everyone can only speak from their own experience, and we, unfortunately have had more experiencing with multiple guarding behaviours than I would wish on anyone. We have also been fortunate to overcome some very serious problems, and I relate what worked for us, knowing full well how situations escalate suddenly. We also saw and came to understand the dynamics of each occasion, and how, especially with location-based guarding that often involved another already being present in the same location as the dog at the same time - that person was safely able to help regulate the dog's behaviour when the person coming close to the location was not. I also believe this had the long term positive effect of letting the dog know that in general, this is not the sort of behaviour we hoped from him and he was able to internalise this general rule and diminish his guarding in general.
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Also note in my response there was no 'handling' involved. The person sharing the location was able to use their voice and give instructions to Ollie to get down or to move away and then into the kitchen, and tone of voice was enough for him to take the instructions seriously. This also depends on having spent plenty of time training the dog with verbal commands and treats, building the relationship with them and knowing that you have reliable follow through on them for the dog to be able to act on the instructions in more stressful times.
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Rightly or wrongly I just feel guarding is a potentially serious issue and can escalate and best left to trained and experienced behaviourists who can see what is happening and get a full picture of the whole situation.
I always think what we can do on COL is share experiences and offer moral support when things are tough.
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I agree, guarding is a serious issue, and I think unfortunately most people learn this first hand from direct experience. One or 2 episodes of experiencing it directly is enough for anyone to tread very carefully after that and seek advice. There are plenty of people living day to day with dogs that display guarding behaviours that can not afford, or are uncertain about getting a behaviourist in, and they might benefit from hearing other people's stories of similar situations and using their judgement and their understanding of their own situation to see if they can safely apply or adapt any of the solutions that have worked for others.
A good behaviourist is a good bet, but not every behaviourist is good, or hugely experienced, or positive-only, or effective, and moreover their presence in the home environment adds another dimension to the interactions and behaviours so that it is hard to accurately re-create the scenario you are attempting to resolve - would any of us behave in the same way when monitored by a stranger in our homes? I'm not dismissing good behaviourists and there are plenty that will do effective analysis of the situations through detailed discussion on the phone prior to visiting. I hope the O.P gets hold of one that works for them.
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Guarding is a really serious issue and it’s also really difficult to know where to take advice from. Our working cocker is 8 months and started guarding about 6 weeks ago, unfortunately it’s nothing specific....toy, food, person, area....he’ll even come running to you excited for affection if you walk in the room and if he has food or a toy in his mouth he’ll growl! We’re at the point where my smaller kids are terrified of him and the rest of us are also scared at times. Anyway, I suppose my point is that I’ve spoken to loads of people about our nightmare and probably got 100 different pieces of advice!! We got a Behaviorist in 2 weeks ago though (expensive!) for advice as despite trying things the problem has just been escalating. I think what we have realised is that consistency is the most important thing. We have exercises and procedures to follow, pretty much at all times, and are hoping with fingers crossed that this works. Unfortunately, after thinking we were getting somewhere this week, he charged my 12 year old tonight when he was sitting in the couch ( although didn’t bite him). Gave him and the rest of us a fright. I’m hoping to persevere though and hopefully get through this and get our happy puppy back! Good luck with the bedroom guarding, consistency, perseverance and good advice I hope is the key. I’d welcome any reassurance that we’ll all get through this!
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Anyway, I suppose my point is that I’ve spoken to loads of people about our nightmare and probably got 100 different pieces of advice!! We got a Behaviorist in 2 weeks ago though (expensive!) for advice as despite trying things the problem has just been escalating. I think what we have realised is that consistency is the most important thing.
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I think thats my point there are always people willing to give advice, some good, some bad, but a behaviourist despite being expensive should know what they are doing. I think i always would use Mark as first point of contact just because he has so much experience with cockers and knows how they tick!
There are lots of people on here who have had guardy dogs and who have done brilliantly with them, we manage Harry really well, but don't have children around so our situation is different.
Good luck with geting issues sorted :luv:
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It's also worth posting on a group called "Dog Training Advice and Support" on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=dog%20training%20advice%20and%20support (https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=dog%20training%20advice%20and%20support)
It is a heavily moderated group - posting is turned off when there is not admin around to answer, all posts are subject to admin approval, so it's always Admin who respond first.... but most helpful for this situation is that they have a list of approved trainers/behaviourists and will advise you of reputable professionals in your area. It's headed up by the (now semi-retired) founder of the dog training school we used with Honey.
Honey has major tendencies to guarding (and we have 2 small children). We find her guarding increases if she's under the weather or feeling more stressed in any way - she first port of call should be a trip to the vet to find out if something is triggering this episode.
What really helped us was not focussing on the guarding so much, but channelling her mental energies into other things, while at the same time training a really good retrieve, so we could initially swap stolen objects for a treat, but gradually built to getting her to retrieve the item for a reward!
There were a lot of other small changes to our approach which helped, but mainly reducing the threat we posed to stolen items.... and while guarding still happens, it's very much more half-hearted and less of a risk!!!
With good management, it's definitely possible to come out of the other side (even with children in the picture) - but it really needs someone to watch your dog's behaviour and really assess the triggers (and your dog's personality) to come up with a management plan tailored to your dog! :)
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Of many dogs in my life, the only guarder has been the cocker. And I mean serious , potentially dangerous guarding. COL saved his life with advice and comfort for me. I raised the question here last year on whether it was a mental problem like autism, because the dogs I've read about , like mine, had no obvious trigger. The tv dog trainer Victoria someone, shocked us all when she advised an owner to have their guarding cocker PTS. You CAN modify the circumstances at home, your own handling of the situation, distracting the dog, ignoring its antics like I did. However, as you know, you can't expect visitors and children to understand. You must have rules.
My mantra everyday was 'Don't stare at him in the eye, don't leave anything on the floor, don't escalate the situation. Walk away or turn sideways, and they will Give up.
Once the adrenalin is raised,very fast like this, they are beyond reason. Let them have space to back out of their own trap.
Despite this, my boy was the love of my life, and gave love back in barrow loads.
I emailed TopBarks, I'm sure he'll still help. A good trainer is worth the money. I am using one for another dog, and the cost of seeing him for an hour a month is less than weekly group lessons, and it's all about you.
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Guarding is a really serious issue and it’s also really difficult to know where to take advice from. Our working cocker is 8 months and started guarding about 6 weeks ago, unfortunately it’s nothing specific....toy, food, person, area....he’ll even come running to you excited for affection if you walk in the room and if he has food or a toy in his mouth he’ll growl! We’re at the point where my smaller kids are terrified of him and the rest of us are also scared at times. Anyway, I suppose my point is that I’ve spoken to loads of people about our nightmare and probably got 100 different pieces of advice!! We got a Behaviorist in 2 weeks ago though (expensive!) for advice as despite trying things the problem has just been escalating. I think what we have realised is that consistency is the most important thing. We have exercises and procedures to follow, pretty much at all times, and are hoping with fingers crossed that this works. Unfortunately, after thinking we were getting somewhere this week, he charged my 12 year old tonight when he was sitting in the couch ( although didn’t bite him). Gave him and the rest of us a fright. I’m hoping to persevere though and hopefully get through this and get our happy puppy back! Good luck with the bedroom guarding, consistency, perseverance and good advice I hope is the key. I’d welcome any reassurance that we’ll all get through this!
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I think age 8 months or so is definitely around the hardest time - in our experience anyway. Our dog displayed seemingly contradictory behaviours, perhaps similar to the ones you are describing - for example being very keen to bring a toy to us and crawling onto our laps only to present with fiercely guarding behaviour seconds after that point. We realised that when he was bringing a favoured item to us we needed to direct him away immediately before he could get too close. If he kept coming we would stand up to stop him coming to our laps.
Everyone will have different experiences and opinions on this but we strongly believe neutering dramatically reduced the guarding issues Ollie had. The turn around in behaviour was too sudden, I believe, to be attributed to anything else. The extent of the ferociousness and the duration of attack decreased in a very pronounced fashion. But it was certainly not a cure- all and training is a central part of the picture. I don't know what your situation is regarding neutering and like I say everyone thinks differently here.
We neutered at about 10 months I think and a few weeks after things were definitely on the up, and I think in most people's experiences they tend to gradually improve around this age anyway as the dog becomes more mature and able to regulate their own behaviour. We haven't nailed the resource guarding completely - this is managed through environment and the level of response is much more half-hearted and playful now although we don't test it. I would say it is at 10% of what it was. Location guarding is pretty much entirely gone as far as I can see unless he is exceptionally tired. The body handling issues which I believe often present at the same time as other guarding issues are pretty much entirely gone now too after careful training which needed both of us to be present (one to occupy the teeth with treats!) So there was light at the end of the tunnel for us and I hope there is for you and others too. (Ollie is 2 and a bit years now)
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Mine started guarding by 12 weeks when he joined us, maybe we are all seeing variations. It wasn't hormonal at that age. Anyway, I was advised not to neuter because of possibly worsening his fear aggression to people. His attitude to dogs was excellent all his life, so this just adds more grist to the discussions. Body handling continued to be a problem. Yet fine with me, the groomer and vets.. Complicated little so and so's!
Sensitivity and high intelligence cause problems in people as well as dogs!
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Yes we were also advised not to rush to neutering for the same reason but we were at the stage where we knew we either had to give him up or try something like that and it appeared to pay off.
I have never fully understood the rationale about neutering making fear aggression worse as to my mind then surely you would expect to see females with a much higher level of fear based aggression due to their naturally lower testosterone levels, but the stats don't bear this out, with intact males showing highest levels of more serious aggression (and if you believe the presently prevailing opinion, stemming mostly from fear) followed by neutered males.
I think it's interesting to see on this forum that a clear majority of owners posting about resource guarding are owners of male dogs. There are certainly female dogs with this as well of course but I think if anyone were to do a search through the forum you would see male dogs over -represented when compared to the general population (I am working to an assumption that there is a roughly 50-50 split of male to female cockers out there but that might be wrong of course)
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Thanks all for the reassurance that we will hopefully get through this and it’s not just us! I know lots of people with puppies just now and they don’t have any of these issues, including the rest of the litter, which probably makes it worse as no one can understand the stress it causes. They look at me like I’m mad! It has briefly crossed our minds that we might have to think about rehoming Archie if the kids continue to be terrified of him, but I’m not willing to give up while he’s so young, unless of course he seriously bites one of us. He has already been neutered, he was nearly 6 months. We had also had a lot of issues with him mouthing us quite roughly and then continually mounting us. He also wouldn’t settle at times and walk about panting in a frustrated way. We hoped that neutering would help with this. It has helped with the panting, he will still mount and mouth, perhaps not as much though. Since a small pup he would get a look in his eyes and he was not home, he would then launch a ‘shark attack’ on you and mount. He still does this if he gets overexcited, the eyes dilate, mouthing starts and he’s attached to your leg. He has to get time out to calm down. I did worry that it was spaniel rage but the Behaviorist reassured us that he doesn’t have this and insecurity is his issue and we should be able to recondition him, just this time, consistency and patience thing again!! His guarding issues actually only started a few weeks after he was neutered, so unfortunately we can’t put them back on[emoji15]. Interesting to hear about fear aggression though. He was also neutered a couple of weeks before the kids went back to school and has been left alone more than ever before so I don’t know if this has also triggered something. We have 5 kids (between 10 and 18 years old) so the house was always busy and someone in from when we got him in April as the older ones were around on study leave. We’ll perhaps never know. I think it is really important though to realise that you are not alone and can come through the other side. On another point, after some reading I have noted that golden especially or single colour Cockers are much worse for guardin, it’s genetic. Archie is golden (with white patches on head and chest only). Just out of interest, Anyone else have golden or single colour with these problem??! Thanks all!
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TopBarks wrote his thesis for his uni course on this very question! Ask him! Can't remember much myself, though he did a survey with our contributions.
One factor to consider is that Firstly Cockers are one of the commonest breeds, so their reporting of problems is disproportionately high compared to to the problems reported by other breeds.
Secondly, the proportion of Goldens and blacks is higher in the breed,so again it means higher reporting.
Finally, many of us, like me, joined COL because we had problems. We are the minority.
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As Phoenix has already said, just goes to show how complex this all is! And we are a self-selective forum, as Phoenix says - many of us here because of issues, and not necessarily generally representative of the norms of the breed.
There has been a thought that 'solids' are more prone to guarding issues than multi-coloured cockers and this would seem to bear out through the forums where I've been surprised by how many male solid black cockers seem to crop up with this issue (Ollie is solid black male). Again you'd really need to know what the overall proportions in existence are...if 90% of cockers out there are solid black and these represent 90% of the total issues raised then this would be entirely proportionate, and any concerns that solid blacks are particularly affected would be inaccurate as this proportion would be expected given the number out there.
And again, if it became a widespread idea that solids might be more commonly affected then owners with solids might be more predisposed to believe problems that they see are to do with this and interpret behaviour through this lens, an attribution bias that does not accurately account for reality if multicolours are equally presenting with issues that are not filtered through the same lens.
I can say, despite all the issues we have had with Ollie, he has been the most loving dog I have ever had, the most attentive, the most intelligent, the most close to us in terms of how he acts - he operates with us in mind..it is hard to describe but he always has an eye to us and a thought to us in everything he does.
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To buck the trend, Honey is a female Orange Roan.
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Honey is a 5year old golden girl. I’ve had her since 8 weeks old and have never had any guarding issues. When I got Pip nearly 21/2 years ago Honey was not happy to have a sibling, in fact she couldn’t stand her! However, she has never guarded with any of her possessions and Pip being a little pickle, always took her things. There are obviously some issues with your little one that you cannot see, dogs are so complex and pick up on the minutest of things. I would suggest speaking to a professional behaviourist about this, sometimes the cost of this is covered under insurance. Good luck x
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To buck the trend, Honey is a female Orange Roan.
And Archie (serious guarder) is also orange roan. As has been mentioned Top Barks’ thesis did quite a big study on coat colour and guarding/aggression. If you scroll down this link you will find his very interesting reply with some of his findings.
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=108579.15
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We have had four spaniels, one a golden worker fifty years ago, and three show types, all blue roan. The worker and two of the shows were the sweetest natured dogs you could want. One of the roans was a rescue, six months old, he had bitten the child of the family because of guarding issues. We took him on as there are no kids and he could have a good life in the country. We had Milo at the time. Finn the rescue latched on to my husband, as Milo was 'my' dog, and he guarded anything my husband put on the floor, his mug, his slippers, anything, sometimes he guarded my husband from me. He went for me once, which I sorted by flipping him on his back and holding him down while giving him a good telling off, and not letting him up til he calmed down. This was a few years ago, I don't know if that is thought acceptable behaviour now ph34r. However, it did the trick and he never went for me again.
We managed him by avoiding the triggers for his behaviour, and he lived til he was eight. When he died I was sad, but not heartbroken, and in some ways it was almost a relief because you were always on edge, and Milo avoided him like the plague, which was sad as we had wanted a nice companion for him. He could be very sweet at times though. He lived out his life, when he could well have been PTS by his original family. We never solved the issues, but back then I don't think there were behaviourists around, they seem a fairly recent development.
I really hope you are able to sort out the problem :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug:
Lesley and Dylan, who would give you anything from his mouth, lovely boy.
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We have had four spaniels, one a golden worker fifty years ago, and three show types, all blue roan. The worker and two of the shows were the sweetest natured dogs you could want. One of the roans was a rescue, six months old, he had bitten the child of the family because of guarding issues. We took him on as there are no kids and he could have a good life in the country. We had Milo at the time. Finn the rescue latched on to my husband, as Milo was 'my' dog, and he guarded anything my husband put on the floor, his mug, his slippers, anything, sometimes he guarded my husband from me. He went for me once, which I sorted by flipping him on his back and holding him down while giving him a good telling off, and not letting him up til he calmed down. This was a few years ago, I don't know if that is thought acceptable behaviour now ph34r. However, it did the trick and he never went for me again.
We managed him by avoiding the triggers for his behaviour, and he lived til he was eight. When he died I was sad, but not heartbroken, and in some ways it was almost a relief because you were always on edge, and Milo avoided him like the plague, which was sad as we had wanted a nice companion for him. He could be very sweet at times though. He lived out his life, when he could well have been PTS by his original family. We never solved the issues, but back then I don't think there were behaviourists around, they seem a fairly recent development.
I really hope you are able to sort out the problem :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug:
Lesley and Dylan, who would give you anything from his mouth, lovely boy.
My old cavalier went for me twice in succession when I tried to take a toy off him (he was about 8 months old) and on the second occasion I grabbed hold of him and pinned him on his back. Not because I had heard of this method before but because I was furious.
I know this is really not an accepted method and it will be frowned upon by the majority, but he never showed any sign of aggression again and grew into the most loyal and affectionate dog you could imagine.
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We have had four spaniels, one a golden worker fifty years ago, and three show types, all blue roan. The worker and two of the shows were the sweetest natured dogs you could want. One of the roans was a rescue, six months old, he had bitten the child of the family because of guarding issues. We took him on as there are no kids and he could have a good life in the country. We had Milo at the time. Finn the rescue latched on to my husband, as Milo was 'my' dog, and he guarded anything my husband put on the floor, his mug, his slippers, anything, sometimes he guarded my husband from me. He went for me once, which I sorted by flipping him on his back and holding him down while giving him a good telling off, and not letting him up til he calmed down. This was a few years ago, I don't know if that is thought acceptable behaviour now ph34r. However, it did the trick and he never went for me again.
We managed him by avoiding the triggers for his behaviour, and he lived til he was eight. When he died I was sad, but not heartbroken, and in some ways it was almost a relief because you were always on edge, and Milo avoided him like the plague, which was sad as we had wanted a nice companion for him. He could be very sweet at times though. He lived out his life, when he could well have been PTS by his original family. We never solved the issues, but back then I don't think there were behaviourists around, they seem a fairly recent development.
I really hope you are able to sort out the problem :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug:
Lesley and Dylan, who would give you anything from his mouth, lovely boy.
My old cavalier went for me twice in succession when I tried to take a toy off him (he was about 8 months old) and on the second occasion I grabbed hold of him and pinned him on his back. Not because I had heard of this method before but because I was furious.
I know this is really not an accepted method and it will be frowned upon by the majority, but he never showed any sign of aggression again and grew into the most loyal and affectionate dog you could imagine.
I did exactly same thing when eze was six months and going off and a really really wild zoomie. I don't consider it aversive in any way as adult dogs will pun down naughty pups (so I believe)
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Alpha rolling (or pinning down in any way) is really dangerous advice and could easily make matters many many times worse.
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Alpha rolling (or pinning down in any way) is really dangerous advice and could easily make matters many many times worse.
My thoughts exactly, but didn't want to get shot down in flames for saying it!!
A trainer at an agility club I used to go to did it to Ben once without my consent, i didn't go back.
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Alpha rolling (or pinning down in any way) is really dangerous advice and could easily make matters many many times worse.
My thoughts exactly, but didn't want to get shot down in flames for saying it!!
A trainer at an agility club I used to go to did it to Ben once without my consent, i didn't go back.
Completely agree.
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Alpha rolling (or pinning down in any way) is really dangerous advice and could easily make matters many many times worse.
I've never heard it called that. This was quite a few years ago, and things have changed. There were quite a few things done in years past that wouldn't be acceptable now. However, I have to say that it did nip the behaviour in the bud. It's the only time I have ever done that. And also, as I mentioned on another thread, I had five Scotties, the eldest of which was the number one dog. The first four all dwelt in harmony, but when number five was introduced she took on each of them in order to get to be number one. They acquiesced until she got to the oldest Tessa, who was having none of it, and she did exactly what I did to Finn, she flipped the 'upstart' Scottie over on her back and actually stood on her while giving her a growly telling off. as IPS said, it's what mothers do to their pups or cubs.
I'm not advising anyone one way or the other, one must do what seems right for their dog. I can only say what worked for me.
I took Dylan to puppy classes two years ago to socialise him, particularly after he had been pounced on by a jack Russell the first time he went out, and was terrified of dogs consequently. The first place I went wanted me to put him on the ground in the hall where the other dogs, mostly quite large ones, were tearing around off their leads, which was the last thing Dylan needed. This trainer ran the KC scheme, so I imagine she had some sort of accreditation, but this seemed madness to me and needless to say I did not go back.
The second place I went was much better, and the trainer was very good, but methods had changed a lot in the thirteen years Since I had last been to classes, some for the better, but some not. Same thing I guess with children, what was OK sixty years ago is not OK now (though some of the little darlings would benefit from a bit of old school ph34r). New doesn't always mean better in every case.
And I would never shoot down in flames my friends on COL , we've all had different experiences so will have different opinions, so,shouldn't be afraid to express what we think. The nice thing about this group,is that we can do that without the flaming that goes on in so many online groups, as has been mentioned in another thread. Your opinions as all respected :bigarmhug:
Lesley and Dylan
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Alpha rolling (or pinning down in any way) is really dangerous advice and could easily make matters many many times worse.
Not being argumentative in any way but can you elaborate ?
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And I would never shoot down in flames my friends on COL , we've all had different experiences so will have different opinions, so,shouldn't be afraid to express what we think. The nice thing about this group,is that we can do that without the flaming that goes on in so many online groups, as has been mentioned in another thread. Your opinions as all respected :bigarmhug:
Lesley and Dylan
I forget sometimes how nice people are on COL - they aren't that nice on all forums/Facebook sites :-\ and sometimes I don't mind saying what I think and don't mind what others think of me, but at the moment I guess I really just want an easy time and to play nicely :luv:
thank you :bigarmhug:
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Alpha rolling (or pinning down in any way) is really dangerous advice and could easily make matters many many times worse.
Not being argumentative in any way but can you elaborate ?
I can elaborate how it made things worse for me - when we had Ben 14 years ago thoughts were different about dominance, pack status and how to treat your dog to show them who was boss! . He was my first cocker and there was still a lot of mumblings about 'rage'. He was very bitey, threw tantrums, nipped at us and had mad moments all things I would now accept as normal cocker puppy behaviours. I phoned a behaviourist when he was 12 weeks old who told me he wanted to be top dog and I had to assert my authority she recommended holding him off the ground with legs dangling till he 'submitted' or holding him firmly down again till he submitted. I believed her, she was a 'professional'. To cut a long story short I ended up with a fear aggressive reactive dog, who would bite and mean it when he was scared. It took a lot of work and about 4 years to undo the damage. He remained fearful of being handled by people he didn't know and aggressive in any situation where he was frightened.
When the trainer at agility held him down he was about 8 or 9 and I saw my beautiful boy fall apart he was so frightened when she did it. She said he needed to be shown who was boss because he had growled at a bigger dog who got in his space (fear aggression) she couldn't see how scared he was he was shaking and crying, it broke my heart.
I know ideas come and go with training, but in my eyes it was so destructive and changed the character of a perfectly normal cocker pup.
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Poor Ben, I can see why you were upset, that trainer was well out of line. The advice you got about dominance was what it was about some years ago, and it didn't seem to matter about the reasons your dog was being difficult. Finn was not a nice biddable dog and wasn't afraid of anything, and I think what I did with him was the right thing for him, like with Murphy and her cavalier. It didn't turn him into a wreck, but he knew he was badly in the wrong for biting me, and he never did it again. There isn't a one size fits all, and while I think dog training has come on in leaps and bounds, with positive reinforcement etc., sometimes something a bit stronger might be necessary, within reasonable boundaries of course.
I think some trainers can be a bit too assertive themselves :005:
Lesley and Dylan
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It's such a tricky one teasing out cause and effect and the repercussions of various methods of training, especially as many behaviours are manifesting at adolescence which could be attributed either to style of handling or to inherent personality. Ollie was certainly not keen on handling for a good period of time despite never having had aversive experiences in this respect and to be honest I still do attribute this time as a stage where he was trying to throw his weight around and control situations - controlling his access to resources - spaces, toys, food, and controlling how people interacted with him - who was allowed to touch him, and where.
To be frank if I thought an 'alpha roll' could have nipped this in the bud and saved us from months of puncture wounds and bruising I certainly would have done it - but I was very aware there was no way we could safely do this due to level of ferocity he was capable of at a very early age. We would have then have failed at this endeavour and Ollie would have learned that he just needed to use even higher levels of aggression to control situations in the future.
I definitely agree there is not a one size fits all approach and believe that stronger approaches can work for some dogs dependent on their personalities.
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Alpha rolling (or pinning down in any way) is really dangerous advice and could easily make matters many many times worse.
Not being argumentative in any way but can you elaborate ?
I can elaborate how it made things worse for me - when we had Ben 14 years ago thoughts were different about dominance, pack status and how to treat your dog to show them who was boss! . He was my first cocker and there was still a lot of mumblings about 'rage'. He was very bitey, threw tantrums, nipped at us and had mad moments all things I would now accept as normal cocker puppy behaviours. I phoned a behaviourist when he was 12 weeks old who told me he wanted to be top dog and I had to assert my authority she recommended holding him off the ground with legs dangling till he 'submitted' or holding him firmly down again till he submitted. I believed her, she was a 'professional'. To cut a long story short I ended up with a fear aggressive reactive dog, who would bite and mean it when he was scared. It took a lot of work and about 4 years to undo the damage. He remained fearful of being handled by people he didn't know and aggressive in any situation where he was frightened.
When the trainer at agility held him down he was about 8 or 9 and I saw my beautiful boy fall apart he was so frightened when she did it. She said he needed to be shown who was boss because he had growled at a bigger dog who got in his space (fear aggression) she couldn't see how scared he was he was shaking and crying, it broke my heart.
I know ideas come and go with training, but in my eyes it was so destructive and changed the character of a perfectly normal cocker pup.
Thank you.
I totally understand I too would have been devastated if someone handled my dog in that way which is why I have never seen a trainer as I know "some" gundog trainers can be very hands on. Maybe it depends on the dog and the situation and who does the pinning down and for how long etc etc. I only did it a few times and not in an aggressive manner it was something I did instinctively in order to stop her hurting herself. At that time I knew absolutely nothing about dogs and it was only after the event that I read somewhere that it was a method used to replicate an adult dog correcting a youngster. Mine was not for correction per se, maybe she realised I was protecting her until she calmed down. Anyway she has never ever shown any aggression or guarding apart from barking at anyone who comes into the yard, its more of a muffled growl as she usually has her toy pheasant in her gob 😁 .
I fully respect your view on it and I totally agree about the dominance theory being nonsense 👍
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I know a lot of experts now believe that the dominance theory is rubbish but I am not so sure. I have read many stories about people with 2 or more dogs where one of them is the boss. A friend of mine has 4 staffies and until recently, the oldest bitch was most definitely the dominant dog. But lately, as she has got older, the others have sensed weakness and have started fighting for top spot.
My cavalier was my first dog and I let him get away with murder. I am sure he decided that he was in charge due to the weakness of the rest of his pack.
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I know a lot of experts now believe that the dominance theory is rubbish but I am not so sure. I have read many stories about people with 2 or more dogs where one of them is the boss. A friend of mine has 4 staffies and until recently, the oldest bitch was most definitely the dominant dog. But lately, as she has got older, the others have sensed weakness and have started fighting for top spot.
My cavalier was my first dog and I let him get away with murder. I am sure he decided that he was in charge due to the weakness of the rest of his pack.
You may be correct murphyslaw. I think maybe the term "dominant" is incorrect and portrays an aversive methodology. However there is no question in my mind that the dog must accept the handler as the "leader". If this was not the case then we as handlers would have no control. How one becomes accepted as the leader is the big question. I like to believe that my bitch accepts that I can direct her to fun things which I will at some point allow her to do but only if she complies with certain rules of the game
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There are several ways in which alpha rolling can make things worse (sorry, I didn't have time to write more when I posted previously....).
Firstly there is the risk that the dog could react aggressively to the roll and bite there and then.
But, for me, the bigger risk is the potential long term impacts - most dogs are actually very forgiving and suffer no ill effects. For some, they find it very threatening and it can trigger fear aggression. However, the most dangerous situation is the dog who is alpha rolled for displaying a fear/anxiety reaction (which can include guarding behaviour) who simply learns to supress that reaction.... the dog may appear to be "cured", but is still experiencing the fear reaction and, at some point, will reach the point where they can't supress it any more but, because they are now so far over threshold, rather than growling (or any other more subtle warning signs) they go straight for the bite. These are the dogs who suddenly inflict a serious bite, and people say "we just didn't see it coming.... he's never so much as growled since he was a puppy.".
I totally understand it can be a minefield to work out what the best approach is (and that understanding of dog behaviour has progressed a lot in recent years) - especially as there are lots of (unqualified) trainers out there who still advise aversive training methods.
As far as dominance goes - yes, a dog needs a leader.... they need consistency and they need boundaries... but as owners we already control when they eat, when they go for a walk, what they eat etc.... aversive methods of asserting dominance (or the more bizarre ones like ensuring you eat something before feeding your dog, or standing in their bed before allowing them in) aren't needed to establish your role as leader. And, as an employee, I am going to give my best work to a boss who treats me fairly and consistently (and makes my work fun and rewarding) than one who threatens to sack me if I make a mistake. The whole theory of dominance was born out of a study of captive wolves (rather than studying their natural wild behaviour) and just assumed the behaviour of these wolves was applicable to domestic dogs. Mech, who originally devised the theory, later retracted it.
At the end of the day, we all do our best with the information we have available to us at that time.
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And this again is an interesting one as more recent studies are challenging theories again, showing real distinctions in behaviours of wolves and dogs, and in fact showing that wolves cooperate more whereas dogs tend to form more linear dominance hierarchies that demand obedience from those considered subordinate.
Have a read of the summary of this study: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/08/wolves-cooperate-dogs-submit-study-suggests
This would suggest dogs do operate in a dominant-submissive paradigm, monopolising food when they recognised they were dominant in a given pairing whereas the lower ranking dog did not even attempt to access the food. This was in contrast to wolves where dominant animals allowed access to lower ranking animals. The study goes on to make suggestions that during the domestication of wild dogs it was important for humans to be able to control them and this led to a selective breeding process that favoured animals that could be more readily enticed to obey, and distinguishing these animals from the wolves that did not have such an obvious dominance structure.
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Its all very interesting stuff, 👍
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It really is. There are so many influences and so many potential scenarios in dog behaviour (as with human behaviour) that it is hard to qualify what is going on for any given dog. What we generally seem to do is post-hoc rationalisation according to the latest theories available, and whatever sits most comfortably with our own personal philosophies and moral compasses.
It does not sit well with many of us, quite understandably, to think of punitive behaviour as ultimately beneficial for a dog (or at least a dog- humans interaction scenario which i guess most of us are working towards, as for the dog themselves aggressive behaviour might actually work out quite well for them, but not in the context in which we are hoping to live alongside them.)
And yet, I would really describe myself as quite utlitarian in this respect - that the overall positive benefit would justify short term punitive approaches - IF that's how they worked (and I'm still not convinced they do) So if I thought a short term aversive approach would save myself, family, partner, other people....my own dog, other dogs from longer term negative consequences (bites, having to be put to sleep)..yes I would do it. And it seems it does work for some people, at least from what we've heard here and from general anecdotal responses.
It's an interesting one. In Scotland I believe we will soon be banning smacking, the argument being that it's abusive and not necessary to correct a child as there are other more effective ways of disciplining children and achieving positive behaviour. It is of course also argued that one form of physical correction will lead a justification of the child's physical response in future scenarios -..if my mum hits then it is ok for me to hit. - But at the same time authorities act in ways they do not allow citizens to - authorities imprison people to regulate behaviour when we don't allow an individual citizen to incarcerate someone on a whim. Does our position and our hope for an eventual overall positive outcome for the dog and everyone they encounter justify responses that are aversive?
Does acting aggressively ourselves encourage our dogs to act more aggressively as we are models for them, or will they escalate aggression in response? Or does a strong dominant approach actually encourage an immediate and longstanding submissive attitude which suppresses aggressive reactions in the long term, through the dog understanding that, in the hierarchy, they are not dominant, and they are not inappropriately allowed to exhibit aggressive response? The more more recent studies seem to suggest the latter is achievable due to a strong instinctive sense of hierarchy dogs seem to work to (albeit in smaller scale studies).
Are we doing our dogs, other dogs and people in general a disservice by actually fostering more aggressive responses because our permissiveness doesn't 'nip things in the bud' and we mistakenly believe positive training can solve all problems when it leads to the dog's sense that they are in control and can act as they wish to determine all scenarios to their advantage?
I don't know and I don't think there are any straightforward answers. I certainly can see how attempts by myself to try to control situations by a more 'dominant approach' have completely backfired and encouraged more aggressive response, but I also can't help but think this is because I was ostentatiously no match for Ollie and his teeth - and, like an unevenly matched stand-off in the park, the one with bigger will, and teeth (and flooding testosterone) won. When the power discrepancy is massive and transparently unassailable in favour of the other (dog parks with very confident large dogs, who will 'tell off' where necessary) I can see very clearly how my dog submits and we have a very peaceable situation - posturing is enough to alert all what the outcome is. When Ollie was in the presence of huge men again he was instinctively submissive.
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To me, we are responsible for imposing unnatural conditions on our dogs.
Firstly in confining their instinct to roam and freedom to avoid confrontation, and secondly by selective breeding.
For example, I have watched stray and feral dogs in countries that aren't pet-owners. They seemed to wander independently, no packs, and no fighting. No guarding.
I always wondered why my pup of 12 weeks guarded . He was a top show line, bred for beauty. Being a pup, he'd no issues with confinement. So my conclusion is that he was born with it.