CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Feeding => Topic started by: happydog on October 24, 2006, 02:39:06 PM
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I have decided that 7 year old working cocker Fern deserves the best. After reading on COL for several months about those of you who feed BARF, speaking to my vet and reading a few recommended BARF books it now makes perfect sense to me to be feeding it.
I thought other COLers might find an occasional diary of how we progress helpful, for those who, like me, agree with the theory but are a little worried about putting it into practice for various reasons.
This is a bit of long intro. Hope you don't all get bored before the end. If no one replies then I can take a hint and shall post no more ph34r.
Background.
Fern is a perfectly healthy small working cocker, a good weight for her size, perhaps a little on the light side if anything. She is a fit muscly, turbo charged live wire. I want her to stay that way for as many years as possible. She was spayed after her first season. Apart from two trips to the vet to remove grass seeds from her ear canals, she has had no other health problems. She has a little tartar build up at the base of her canines but that is about all. She is my sixth dog and all the others have begun to go gradually downhill from about the age of six or seven. Feeding her BARF from now on is a sort of experiment I suppose, to see if I can prolong her fitness and zest for life.
Previous diet
As an adult she has always been fed once a day in the evening on tinned Pedigree Chum/Winalot/Asda Hero/Butchers -half a small tin a day with a generous handful of mixer. She has always had 3 or 4 Bonios a week, 2 or three low fat milky biscuits a day, a couple of beefhide chewstick (the cheap garishly coloured ones ::) ) a day, with the occasional pigs ear and pumice denta chews(about 1 a week). I tried her on kibble once when I was given a pack, but she really wasn't keen, wet or dry. I felt that it was a most unnatural thing to be feeding a dog myself so wasn't particularly suprised that she gave it the thumbs down. She has always happily polished off melon skins, apple cores and skins, cabbage stalks and the remains of dinners (after we have eaten and left the table).
Small beginnings- raw eggs.
A few months ago she had her first ever raw egg. She carried around in her mouth for ages not knowing what it was for. She then proceeded to bury it in the soft pine needles under a tree in the garden, using her nose to dig out the hole and to cover it up again. It remained intact. As a working cocker I was pleased that she proved how soft mouthed she is. It was quite a shock for me to realise that I had a dog that had no idea what to do with an egg and I felt quite guilty. I dug it up and started her off by cracking it slightly on the patio. After a lot of tentative licking she ate the whole thing and crunched up the shell as dessert.
Getting there. chicken wings
My biggest concern about feeding BARF was that Fern wouldn't crunch the bones properly and get bits stuck in her throat, her intestines, rupture her colon and have to be rushed to the vet in agony. Being a rather imaginative person I had scenarios playing through my head where the vet would be shaking his head saying there was nothing he could do and that I should have had more sense than to feed chicken bones to a dog. I even had similar concerns that eggshell would cause similar problems.
Having at last understood a)that it is cooked bones that splinter, not raw and that one should never ever feed them and b)that raw meaty bones should of a size that are impossible for the dog to swallow without first chewing and crunching I proceeded to offer her a chicken wing. She gingerly took it from me and obediently took it outside as I told her. After about ten minutes of licking and sniffing and puzzled glances in my direction she finally began to nibble small pieces from the wing tip. Then crunch, crunch, more licking of lips and she was away steadily chewing and crunching as though it was the best thing in the world she had ever eaten. It probably took her a full 10 minutes to eat and she was sniffing and licking the patio after it had all gone to make absolutely certain there was none left. She didn't choke, she was not sick and nothing got stuck on the way though. Phew. :005: Two or three raw chicken wings a week as an occasional daytime treat well away from dinner time has been the norm now for the last month or two.
Does anyone wan't to know what happens next?
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In a word - YES! :D
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Please...I've got as far as trying the raw chicken wings..nearly asked the vet to be on call but thought better of it :005: :005:
My Springer and Beatle loved them, our retriever took them carefully out of his bowl and refused under any circumstances to have anything to do with them!! All our dogs eat chopped up raw vegetables on a regular basis. It's just going the extra mile I haven't got to grips with yet! :-\
Jasmine our springer was spayed recently, age four, and in spite of cutting down her food she is gaining weight and I've got to do something about it. I thought BARF might be the answer.
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Oooh yes please! Can I guess? Fern can now eat a chicken wing in under 30 seconds?
I raw feed already, and Ruby's got crunching bones down to a fine art now!
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yes please!! my 3 are mainly barf now but its hard to get the variety up here but they love raw chicken bones and all. they get raw venison bones too and Im waiting for some lamb/mutton bones next time one of our sheep get culled. Ive asked the butcher to keep me some too.
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Yes please.
I'm a few weeks ahead of you and getting more relaxed about it all now. But it would be great to see how you go and exchange more useful tips,
DO be sure to ask Penel and SarahP just how many sardines you should give Fern. They are bound to be most helpful on the subject! :005:
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Yes please. :D
I'm a few days behind you, and am gearing up and menu planning this week ready for the weekend.
It will good to hear what you giving her and how she's doing with it.
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Yes, please. I have just bought a load of beef and turkey mince, chicken wings, lambs hearts and oxtail and have been trying Coco on it with the odd Naturediet meal. She is also having pilchards, sardines and eggs. So far, she has loved everything and has not yet choked, perforated any of her body parts or had explosive d and v due to salmonella poisoning :shades: In fact, she has a better diet than me! :005: Will be interested to know how you get on ;)
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Come on then where's part two ?!
as for sardines, well, that depends on how big they are ? I think Annette should be measuring Buddy's - from nose to tail... :005:
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Oooh, I am very interested in part two too..
As you probably know, Dill has been on Barf for about 6 months....
He is doing great, bags of energy, shiny eyes, shiney coat, nice smell.....
Apart from a small hickup with morning vomiting (all sorted for the time being...) I am loving feeding him this way. It seems so much more natural, so much healthier... :blink:
Hurry up with part two, can't wait to find out how Fern gets on....
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I'll take it that's a 'yes' then :005: .
In short sections as I get time and so you don't get too bored with my musings and meanderings.
Getting closer- reading matter
I put a post on COL for BARF book recommendations and thanks to AnnieM received two of them via her (thanks AnnieM :blink:). They are Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats by Kymythy Schultze (American -qualified animal nutritionist and Animal Health Instructor) & Work Wonders- Feed your dog raw meaty bones by Tom Lonsdale (Australian -vet). I thought it would take me a while to get round to reading them as I have a very busy schedule. Neither was I sure that reading just two books on the subject would give me the range of information I was after. As a biologist I could see the sense in BARF but I was not confident that I could provide a suitably balanced BARF diet. I didn't want to deny Fern adequate nutrition because I hadn't sufficiently researched it. I am aware that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
I was wrong on all counts. Once started I couldn't put the books down and read them both in two days. In spite of their differing styles they were both easy to read and surprisingly informative. For example -I hadn't realised that many of the added vitamins, minerals and other supplements in cooked tinned dog food may not actually be in a form that an animal can use. I didn't realise that feeding raw salmon was not recommended because of the parasite flukes that act as host for rickettsia. They also settled my mind on the question of exposing my dog to salmonella and other bacteria. The only slightly disconcerting thing was reading about feeding kangaroo tails :huh: not sure about that here in England :005:
:huh: How did I get to here?
I ran out of supermarket style mixer on Saturday and as I had been thinking about all the unneccessary colourings, flavourings and additives I had been shoving down Fern's neck, decided to pay a visit to my local tiny independent pet shop to see if I could still buy plain unadulterated baked biscuit mixer. It is under new managment and the lady who runs it is so enthusiatic, says having her own pet shop is something she has always wanted to do. A visit there makes a nice change from the usual bored, 'I'm-too-good-for-this-job' and 'all-customers-are-a-pain' attitude one frequently gets elsewhere. I explained that I was trying to work away from mass produced artificial feed for my dog and thinking about beginning her on BARF eventually. She went to the end of the packed shop, lifted a few dog baskets and blankets from a huge pile in the corner to reveal a chest freezer wherein was revealed a huge stock of 2Kg packs of A.M.P. Prize Choice. Now I'm not entirely sure I know quite how this happened, but I came away from that shop with two very heavy carrier bags and well over £20 poorer. to be honest I don't even remember paying (although I am certain that I did ;)). When I got home I found I had bought;
2Kg Beef mince
2Kg Chicken Mince
2Kg Lamb Mince
2Kg Heart chunks
2Kg Chicken wings
2Kg Poultry necks
and a block of (green?) minced tripe
I then had to try and fit in all in my small upright freezer ph34r
She didn't have any plain baked biscuit mixer by the way.
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She didn't have any plain baked biscuit mixer by the way.
that's good, so you weren't tempted by evil cereals :lol:
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Looks like we're starting from the same point! ;)
I went to PAH and came away with AMP Beef and Tripe Mince and then some blocks of Rabbit, Lamb, Chicken and White Fish.
I had to go to PAH last weekend as I'd run out of somethings so thought I'd pick up some BARF bits while I was there. Tomorrow my task is to work out how much they all need to eat and a menu so I can buy everything at the weekend.
Does everyone tend to use a local butcher rather than the supermarket for the fresh meat/bones and offal?
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I use both really. The butcher gives me a bag or two of chicken carcasses / wings / breast of lamb ribs / various bones for free every week - and if I run out I buy chicken wings from supermarket. Lola only has pork ribs which I buy from the supermarket.
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can I ask a probably silly question.. I got a bag of lamb bones from butcher . the dogs loved them but .there was a small leg bone in there can they have that? peppers a great chewer and grinder so I know she would be able to eat it, would it be dangerous because its a weight bearing bone.. ?
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In spite of their differing styles they were both easy to read and surprisingly informative.
I think those 2 books really complement each other and give a balanced view because their styles are so different and they really come at it from different angles. Lonsdale's main focus is around gum disease and the effect that it can have on an animal's general health.
The only slightly disconcerting thing was reading about feeding kangaroo tails :huh: not sure about that here in England :005:
Yes, I remember thinking that about the road kill suggestion as well. :o :005: The thought of feeding something squashed with fur on as well nearly put me off the whole idea of BARF. Thankfully it didn't.
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Paddy's on a "lamb only" raw diet - the homeopathic vet recommended this to SarahP to help with the colitis. I get the bones and mince from the butcher and if I'm desperate, I get a pack of fresh lamb mince from Tesco too. Haven't bothered with any of the pet shop meats.
From Tesco, lamb mince works out at £3.76 per kg. From the butcher, it's £3.25/kg plus I can get the breast of lamb from the butcher too.
Keep posting, HappyDog - we want to know how Fern gets on...
Denise
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Ok then where was I?
Oh yes. Saturday evening. In A.M.P. BARF up to the eyeballs with no room in the freezer for human food(had to chuck out the frozen bread in order to fit it in :005:), a load of dog tins still in the cupboard and no mixer.
Fern got fed Pedigree Chum Saturday and Sunday with loads of Bonios to make up for the mixer and a chicken wing or carrot for dessert. She knows the chicken wing has to be eaten outdoors...
Vegetables and other supplements
I had done a bit more reading and discovered that Alfafa and Kelp in the powdered form was recommended in one book. Having tried in a few health food shops with no success, I read the second book and found that a dog in good health rarely requires supplements -so decided not to bother for the moment. If Fern had any specific health problems then I would be looking for extra things to help if I was sure that it wasn't being provided for with a BARF diet.
I was a bit puzzled that one book recommends garlic whilst the other one says it is toxic :huh:. I like the idea of feeding garlic as it is known to help protect against fleas and suchlike. I shall be adding it to her diet occasionally in very small quantities, a couple of cloves a month perhaps -as most of these 'banned' foods (with the exception of chocolate) are, as far as I know only toxic at high levels.
These anomalies only serve to reinforce the point that BARF is not and never will be an exact science, so there is absolutely no point in trying to make it so. We all manage to keep alive and fairly healthy without measuring everything to the n'th degree. Variety and everything in moderation is the key to all nutrition, human and otherwise.
I'm thinking I can't prevaricate much longer and now the basics are here I might as well get on with it. I can always offer the remaining tins to one of my dog owning neighbours who would be delighted with them. I can't bring myself to give her beloved Bonios or chew sticks away though. They will be used up and I shall gradually replace them with some home made stuff from Willows Kitchen http://www.itsaspringthing.co.uk/willows%20kitchen.htm.
Monday.
I had a couple of hours free from work so went 'vegetable shopping' ( I must get a life). Went out of town and found a proper greengrocer (a rarity in this neck of the woods these days) rather than the supermarket. I don't suppose the pesticide levels are any different but I somehow felt better buying things loose and mud spattered rather than those perfectly clean, plasticised looking supermarket veg. They looked fresher to me anyway. Got rather carried away (again ::)) and came back with:
Carrots
Cabbage
Celery
Brocolli
Parsnips
Cauliflower
I crammed them into my, now groaning, fridge (I only have an under worktop one), got out the ancient Kenwood Chefette, that had somehow survived the liver cake and roughly chopped up:
One carrot
One stick of celery
Two or three slices of green cabbage
Added a bit of water, as the Chefette sometimes needs a bit of persuasion to get going (especially after the raw liver :005:), and whizzed away 'til all was mush. A rather fetching shade of pale orange I thought. It also smelt absolutely fab and fresh - a bit like coleslaw. Stuck 'dollops' (about a large heaped tablespoonful each) in to separate small recycled lidded plastic tubs (-my weakness is taramasalata ph34r ) and filled five. Stuck them in the fridge. I hope that five days isn't too long to keep them but think they will be OK as it's veg and not meat. Have decided that I might not have to buy extra veg for Fern as she can have a little of whatever we have. It goes a very long way. I shall ring the changes every week but always include one root vegetable with a couple of above ground ones. Variety is the key.
According to the two BARF books I have one says feed only a very small portion (to simulate the amount of partially digested vegetation that would be present in a herbivores stomach relative to it's size) in relation to muscle meat and bone. The other book says not to feed veg at all and is quite scathing about it :huh:. I know Fern likes her raw fruit and veg so she is having it. I also note from the first book that veg helps loosen things up if constipation should ever become a problem. I definitely want that as an option :005:.
I'll tell you about Monday evening in my next post....
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She didn't have any plain baked biscuit mixer by the way.
that's good, so you weren't tempted by evil cereals :lol:
:005: It seems that fate played a hand that day Penel. I know now that cereals cannot be digested properly by dogs and is one of the main reasons for large smelly poos ph34r. As dogs have no known requirement for carbohydrates it does seem a pretty dumb idea to feed it when you think about it. If you have to bulk up a dogs food with a food type it cannot digest or gain any nutritional benefit from, simply in order to stop it feeling hungry then it can't be very high quality food can it? Whatever the advertising blurb may say....
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Oooh yes please! Can I guess? Fern can now eat a chicken wing in under 30 seconds?
:lol: Not yet Claire. I'm hoping she wont for a little while tbh. I'm still a little paranoid if she swallows without a lot of chewing first - and spend the next half hour watching her like a hawk in case it's got stuck or has to come back for a re-chew :005:.
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DO be sure to ask Penel and SarahP just how many sardines you should give Fern. They are bound to be most helpful on the subject! :005:
as for sardines, well, that depends on how big they are ? I think Annette should be measuring Buddy's - from nose to tail... :005:
Thanks Annette ;) . I have given Fern tinned sardines before all this and she loves them. Two questions about tinned sardines that some of you may be able to help me with:
If you are solely a BARF feeder then why are tinned, cooked sardines considered acceptable? I have read that mixing cooked and raw food together at the same meal is not a good idea :huh: . I am guessing this advice is along the same principles of humans ideally not mixing protein and carbohydrate at the same meal - differing digestion rates and enzyme production. Or am I in danger of becoming too anal about this ::) ?
The other question is about sardines in tomato sauce. Are tomatoes not one of the foods that should be fed with care to dogs as they can be toxic :-\ ?
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I got a bag of lamb bones from butcher . the dogs loved them but .there was a small leg bone in there can they have that? peppers a great chewer and grinder so I know she would be able to eat it, would it be dangerous because its a weight bearing bone.. ?
Now that I am 'an expert' on BARF Jean :shades: ::) :005: ph34r and can quote from one of the two books I have read. Tom Lonsdale has a section at the back of his book entitled 'Suitable Carcasses and Raw Meaty Bones'. Under 'Lamb' he has: 'Large meaty lamb bones, lamb necks, meaty lamb brisket and ribs'. So I would go ahead. :D
:-\ I stand to be corrected on this -but I have a feeling that weight bearing bones have more air pockets in them and are therefore less dense than non weight bearing bones.
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thanks happydog, as I suspected pepper crunched her way through it and I chucked the bits she cracked off as they were a bit small and I was worried shes scoff them whole, she was more interested in the marrow.
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If you are solely a BARF feeder then why are tinned, cooked sardines considered acceptable?
I feed sardines or tuna once or twice a week, because Ruby will not eat raw fish. I want her to have fish, and if this is the only way she'll eat it, so be it. Obviously it's not strictly raw feeding, but she loves the meal so much (I give it to her with raw eggs usually). I don't think it matters on occassion - same as her training treats aren't usually raw either.
I feel that raw feeding means you are giving them an excellent diet which you have control of, so it enables you to break the rules sometimes because you're doing it on your own terms, rather than having some unknown additives given to them in the form of a complete food.
What I mean by this is that before we switched to raw, if Ruby snaffled something in the park, it nearly always gave her the runs. If she does it now, it doesn't. Because the food she eats is high quality additive free, a bit of stuff she shouldn't ideally have doesn't have any adverse effects.
A few months back, she got this ENORMOUS piece of chocolate cake in the park at the height of picnic season. The only effect of it was a big smile on her face >:(.
Treats I give her occassionally that are not part of a raw diet include left over meat with some gravy from our Sunday roast with (if she's lucky) a roast potato, squeezy cheese as a special training treat, cooked ham, scrambled egg, and empty yoghurt/icecream tubs to lick. ph34r
Re. the comments about the veg - it's Lonsdale that doesn't approve I seem to remember. I do feed vegor fruit with at least one of her two meals a day, and I give her raw carrots (not pulped) as she enjoys chewing them. Lonsdale is very good, but quite hardcore. I seem to recall that he doesn't even like the term 'BARF'!
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Thanks for that Claire. I have yet to try Fern on raw fish but judging by the way the nose twitches when the smoked haddock comes out of the fridge I suspect there'll be no problem there. Feeding occasional leftovers is something I have always done after we have finished eating. It is their reward for sitting still out of the way and not pestering us during the meal. I would not want to discontinue that.
Lonsdale is very good, but quite hardcore. I seem to recall that he doesn't even like the term 'BARF'!
I agree. He is pretty scathing about using packaged raw minced 'barf' too. In his view the only way to feed dogs and cats properly is to throw whole carcasses at them and let then get on with it. Not always practical in our house. I get his point though, which is that in order to have a well balanced raw diet the whole animal does have to be consumed, ie muscle, bone, skin, fat, organs, - and the more of it on the bone the better. The chewing and crunching serving to reduce dental tartar and the ensuing health problems that many non barf fed animals end up with.
thanks happydog, as I suspected pepper crunched her way through it and I chucked the bits she cracked off as they were a bit small and I was worried shes scoff them whole, she was more interested in the marrow.
Glad to hear that Pepper survived the challenge :005:
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I've been encouraged by this thread and have started Meg on a BARF diet (thanks Happydog for the kick up the backside I needed). She never really liked dried food anyway and although was a little hesitant at first cleans her bowl now. Jakey is still on complete with a few treats thrown in because I need to use it up and he likes anything edible :005:
My OH says Meg's eating better than us, which is probably true.
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BARF Day 1.
With deep controlled slow breaths I approached the freezer and tentatively removed the A.M.P packs of chicken mince and poultry necks. I glanced at the clock, as I placed the unopened packets on the worktop. It was half past four. 'In just over an hour it'll all be over' I muttered to myself as I fumbled in the drawer for the scissors and began opening the bags. 'The vets don't shut 'til half past six so maybe I'll still have time, if.........'.
My thoughts were interrupted by the clatter of cocker nails on my new solid oak kitchen doors and a cold wet nose reached the level of the worktop straining to get a lungful of the aroma eminating from the newly open packets. I looked down, a cocker tail was frantically wagging. Her whole body was trembling with anticipation as she excitedly ran her nose from side to side along the worktop savouring the raw poultry laden air.
To be continued....
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:005: :005:
So Fern is still alive and kicking then?
I have tried Coco on breast of lamb tonight with some veg - it disappeared in about 30 seconds flat. So far, in the last week, she has had oxtail, chicken wings, lamb breast, lambs heart, turkey mince, sardines, eggs and pilchards in tomato sauce. That with the odd cow's kneecap or bone to keep her occupied. She has wolfed everything down with huge enthusiasm and licked her bowl clean. :shades: I have not yet found tripe so that is a pleasure to come. ;) I have decided not to stress about it and just try and give her a good variety over the week. If all else fails, she will get the odd meal of Naturediet. Hurrah, isn't BARF fun? :D
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Her whole body was trembling with anticipation as she excitedly ran her nose from side to side
To be continued....
taken out of context this could be rather saucy :005:
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Her whole body was trembling with anticipation as she excitedly ran her nose from side to side
To be continued....
taken out of context this could be rather saucy :005:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :005: :005: :005: I am laughing out loud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Brilliant Penel
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Can I just hi-jack briefly to ask a question please?
I read that we should add fish oil a couple of times a week. Then recently I read that it should be fish body oil, not cod liver oil.
Oops, that's what I've been giving!
Can someone explain the reason for using the fish body oil rather than cod liver oil please? And what sort should I get?
I am not adding any other supplements at the moment. Have just looked at the Dorwest site and don't think there's anything there that Buddy neds at the moment. But I am happy to be corrected. It was only when I looked at that site and saw that the only fish oil they have is cod liver oil, that I thought I'd just ask.
NOT anal, honestly (but how big should the sardines be?) :005:!
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Having been inspired by what I have read about BARF and sick to death of trying to force food down Sam then ending up worrying when he doesn't eat I went to PAH, the butchers and a local pet shop today.
I came home with a bag of the ready made natures diet BARF to try Sam on and tomorrow I'm going to buy some chicken wings. Enquired at the butchers about bones but he said he couldn't give me bones so tomorrow I'm going to try a different one.
Also have discovered that my local pet shop has a freezer full of raw meat and sells it cheaper than PAH.
So......when do I take the plunge? Do I start with wings or give him a small portion of the ready mixed BARF.
I got the ready made just to try but I do intend on doing my own veg.
And well done to all you successful BARFers :D
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Do I start with wings or give him a small portion of the ready mixed BARF.
I would start with the ready mixed for a few days and see how his tummy gets on with it.
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:005: :005:
So Fern is still alive and kicking then?
:lol: Oh yes very much so Joules. It was all quite an anticlimax really (sorry Penel -couldn't resist the choice of word :shades:). It's the run up to feeding BARF that is the scary part. Once you've begun it isn't nearly as stressful as you thought it would be.
Hurrah, isn't BARF fun? :D
Yup :005:
Fern had about 150g of chicken mince & whizzed veg that evening. She sniffed and ate slowly, seeming to savour every mouthful, licked the bowl clean and went back for another lick after a few minutes just to make sure. Afterwards I gave her a piece of turkey(or a giant chicken's :o )neck. I wasn't too sure about these as they appear to be cut crossways quite thinly and as a consequence are swallowable whole. I did however hear a couple of quick crunches before it disappeared and it didn't make a reappearance so I guess it was OK...
BARF Day 2 & an encounter with Real chicken Wings.
Fern had the first of the A.M.P.chicken wings an hour or two before her usual dinner time as we had been out for a long run and I felt she was hungry. I was a bit taken aback to discover that frozen chicken wings for working dogs come with some feathers still attached :o and, compared to the tiny little supermarket variety, it was huge :o :005: and had extra bones sticking out of it. Having weighed it and found it to be about 175g I was a little confused as to how much meat I should feed her that night. Rachel (IWLass) feeds Molo according to the barf club guide http://www.ukbarfclub.co.uk/nm/anmviewer.asp?a=19
which is 100-150g of meat per 10kg of dog with bones and veg on top of that. I was going to follow that as a guide too. Fern is 11.25Kg and that meant that she should be having 120-175g of meat per day.I had no idea what proportion of the wing was bone and what was meat :huh: :huh: . I eventually decided that it really wasn't that important, that in the wild, dogs don't eat for days sometimes and they certainly don't weigh their prey before they tuck in :005:.
It took Fern a little longer to pluck up courage with this one. Although she sniffed it interestedly, I had to encourage her to 'take it' several times before she became brave enough to take up this weighty feathery thing -that seemed very much like a part of the young fluttery feathery things she is always being told to 'leave' when out on walks on the shoot. After much 'go on, good girl, take it- goood girl!' s she crunched it all down feathers an' all.
Dinner that night consisted of approx 120g of heart chunks, and a small piece of turkey neck for pud which was devoured in exactly the same manner as the night before - perhaps a little quicker or am I imagining it? The heart chunks seem quite fatty, which would not be welcome in many a human diet, but having read my barf books I now know that fat is good for dogs, in proportion of course.
She also had a raw carrot later, only I have to feed the first few inches to her in slices one at a time, or she will just wander around with it in her mouth and then drop it usually just where you are going to trip over it ::). Once she's been fed the thick end she will take the rest off to her basket and crunch away.
I noticed tonight that as soon as I removed the whizzed vegetables from the fridge and took the top off the container she was up and sniffing.... Her whole body was trembling with anticipation as she excitedly ran her nose from side to side
To be continued....
:005:
taken out of context this could be rather saucy :005:
That all depends on what your normal reading material is :005:. 'Seek and ye shall find' Penel :shades:
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LouiseAS- I'm glad it's helped. Good Luck.
Can I just hi-jack briefly to ask a question please?
I read that we should add fish oil a couple of times a week. Then recently I read that it should be fish body oil, not cod liver oil.
Oops, that's what I've been giving!
Can someone explain the reason for using the fish body oil rather than cod liver oil please? And what sort should I get?
I am not adding any other supplements at the moment. Have just looked at the Dorwest site and don't think there's anything there that Buddy neds at the moment. But I am happy to be corrected. It was only when I looked at that site and saw that the only fish oil they have is cod liver oil, that I thought I'd just ask.
NOT anal, honestly (but how big should the sardines be?) :005:!
Why do you need to add fish oil Annette? Buddy is eating his sardines isn't he?
You can overdose Cod liver oil because as well as providing EFA's it is a source of Vitamins A and D both of which are fat soluble and therefore excesses tend to get stored in the body rather than flushed through the system.
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I'm not feeding any supplements on the basis that if Coco is getting a wide variety of food, she won't need them.
Do I need to give her supplements too then? :huh:
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I've been adopting a "safety first" approach with the supplements - nothing I'm giving Pads will overload his system and unabsorbed excess will be pee'd or poo'd out, since the only problem one would be Vit A as Happydog has noted above.
I'm using Keeper's Mix from Dorwest Herbs - just stir some of the powder into his minced meat meal, with his veg. It's alfalfa, pysillium husks (an excellent source of fibre - great for humans too if you're prone to IBS or any kinds of digestive or bowel problems) and various herbs and minerals - so I see it as the equivalent of giving Paddy a multivitamin/mineral tablet a day.
I'm giving him sardines (not keen) and mackerel at least once a week but also give him a fish oil (and not the cod liver oil)tablet (I spear it and drain the oil into his mince - watch out to make sure you puncture the capsule on the underside, otherwise you can get it squirting all over the work surface or (on one occasion) straight onto my glasses!) twice a week.
I'm also adding an acidophilus tablet (one of these "pull apart" capsules) which I empty the powder into his mince - daily. This is because of his colitis though.
I'd go with what your comfortable with: if you think your dog's coat isn't as glossy as you'd like, then try the fish oil a few times a week and see if it helps, for instance.
Frankly, when I think of the crap that goes into my body on top of the good stuff, it makes me realise that whatever I do, Pads will always have a better, more balanced diet than I've got!
Annette - the other reason for avoiding the cod liver oil is that heavy metals and other pollutants get stored in the liver, so as well as the Vits A & D overdose risk, you'd have to buy wild/organic cod liver oil (which is prohibitively expensive) to minimise the pollutants.
Denise
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Bella gets tinned fish once or twice a week but I also add other oils to her food 3-4 times a week, rotating with salmon oil and evening primrose oil - from what I understand (I may be wrong) you need to make sure they get the correct mix of Omegas and some of these they would get naturally from eating the brains of their prey but if they're not eating brains, they need to get them elsewhere. I've read that they need Omega 3, 6 and 9.
The only other supplement Bella normally gets is Keeper's Mix when I remember it. She has garlic and parsley added to her pulped veg when I do them at the beginning of each month.
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Claire - I only found out a week or two ago that we need Omega's 3, 6 and 9 too - doh! Hadn't even realised there was an Omega 9......
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Claire - I only found out a week or two ago that we need Omega's 3, 6 and 9 too - doh! Hadn't even realised there was an Omega 9......
I was going to mention it too - I buy omega 3,6,9 capsules from Holland and Barratt and put a few in with the veg when I blend it; I pick out the capsule cases out when I put the veg in the ice cube trays ;)
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I have been giving Dill Omega 3, but will head off to H&B for some 3,6,9 capsules (sounds like Olivers 3x table... :005:)
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As a beginner BARFer, if I give them Keepers Mix and Omega 3,6,9 is that all the supplements they will need?
Where I get my vitamins from do the Omega 3,6,9 1000mg caps are they ok? How much should I give a week between the three of them (13kg, 28kg and 32kg dogs)
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We are on day 2 of our conversion to BARF. Sam had the ready mixed BARF yesterday and was fine with it, a little dubious but he ate most of what I put down for him.
This morning was a different story, I added some extra broccoli to his ready made BARF and he polished the lot off.
I looked in the pet shops locally and none stock chicken wings for dogs (PAH near me have stopped in case they get sued) but they do have them in morrisons, are these safe to use?
Where can I get a turkey neck and when you give sardines and tuna do you use the tinned ??
Questions, questions, it's a good job that there is cockers online, the pet shop owners look at me as if I'm mad when I ask for chicken wings and poultry necks
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I looked in the pet shops locally and none stock chicken wings for dogs (PAH near me have stopped in case they get sued) but they do have them in morrisons, are these safe to use?
I've always bought "human grade" chicken wings, I didn't know pets shops sold them ph34r
Try your local butcher, they are soooo much cheaper than Morrisons (I got over 60 wings for under £3 yesterday :D)
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I give tinned sardines and pilchards - I get the ones in tomato sauce and Coco loves them :D
I get chicken wings from Tesco or Asda - I expect they are better quality than the pet shop ones! Will try my butcher though - thanks for the tip Rachel. ;)
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BARF Days 3-6 .
Today is day 7 of Fern on BARF. Sorry this is a bit long but I have only just had time to catch up. Life has intervened....
She has worked her way through my original BARF shopping list and greeted each meal with the same enthusiasm and polished everything off. She has crunched chicken and turkey bones, carrots and celery sticks(she spat those out after crunching :005:). She has still been having the occasional Bonio and garishly coloured chopped hide chew.
Poo and a worrying moment 1.
Her poos have been variable, but to date no diarrhoea or constipation. Mostly small, odourless, harder and much easier to pick up. The day it turned bright orange :o (after a surfeit of carrot) was interesting until I realised why :005:.
A worrying moment 2.
Fern walked around for ages with a piece of turkey neck in her mouth one day. It was there for so long I thought she had got it stuck. I went to investigate but it wasn't. It was only partially defrosted when I gave it to her and she was sucking on it like an iced lolly. Eventually she crunched it up. :lol:
Quantity
:-\ I am beginning to wonder whether Fern is getting enough in terms of quantity. She is a very active dog and seems hungry although her appetite has always been good. I had another look through my books.
Schultze only measures in cups full which for a beginner I found unhelpful. How big is a cup? There is no guide for feeding between a 10lb and a 50lb dog either. She also considers organ meats as well as raw bone such as turkey necks as an extra to be fed outside the guidelines. I found it too confusing.
On turning to Tom Lonsdale I found his recommendation much more informative. 20% of your dogs weight in raw meaty bones over a 7 day period. Now that I can understand. Nice and simple :blink: . This means I can just wack the mince and chicken wings/turkey necks on to the scales each day for a few weeks until I get an idea of what it looks like. No more wondering what the ratio is of meat to bone on every flipping thing I feed. For Fern she will need 2.35Kg of meat and bone per week. Which equates to 336g/day if I feed her every day, or a bit more if I am fasting her for a day a week as he suggests (not sure about that yet). I shall be looking at feeding 350-400g/day until Fern puts on a little weight. If she gets too fat I shall reduce it. Veggies are extra.
If any of you actually work out that I have based this on a weight of 11.75Kg instead of Fern's weight of 11.15Kg as I put on my first post, this is because that is the weight I would like her to be :D .
Friday
Beef mince, chicken wing and turkey necks 375g in total
The first batch of whizzed veggies have run out. I have replaced then with:
Parsnip
Celery
Cauliflower
She loved these too. I wasn’t sure about the parsnip for some reason. Possibly just me putting a human slant on a dogs dietary preference.
She was eating her chicken wing in the garden last night after her veg and mince meal. She is still taking it gently and looking at me with eyes full of wonder at this new food after every few mouthfuls. A dog barked outside and instead of abandoning her food and rushing to the gate to have a good old nose, she grabbed the wing first. There was no way she was going to leave that unattended :lol: .
Next week.
I shall be trying to see if I can get a fresh fish or two, and as OH no longer shoots - looking to our local farmer for the odd rabbit and pheasant carcass. I shall also be buying some liver, probably ox as Fern will need a greater variety of organ meats that just the frozen heart chucks I have in the freezer. I note that offal, or organ meats need only be fed every couple of weeks, up to a maximum of two or three times a week.
The other thing I shall do is to contact a BARF friendly butcher about six miles away that I found listed on Tom Lonsdales web site:
http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/showcontent.toy?contentnid=7379
(a rather militant site I felt, but good in some ways - providing you are selective. He obviously has his own axe to grind….)
Supplements
I am still not entirely convinced about Fern needing any supplements with BARF and at the moment am wondering whether this is all part of the supplement media hype for humans that we have transferred to our dogs. I have read, for example that ‘dogs have no known requirement for Omega 3’. Muscle meat (not just brain -but is in highest quantities there) contains both Omega 3 and 6, with a higher ratio of 6. The more animal fat consumed the less Omega 6 is required. The role of Omega 9 is I believe, a relatively recent ‘discovery’ in relation to its function. I agree with Joules on this. If Fern has a wide and varied diet using good quality foodstuffs there should be no need for supplements. I shall conduct my own research in to this and if I discover otherwise I shall own up straight away!
Today(Sat) Fern will be having an egg with her dinner (which may well be tinned sardines* for a change). I seem to have forgotten to give her any this week.
*probably about 12 inches worth Annette ;)
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Don't get toooo hung up on the variety thing - mine basically have chicken / lamb / tripe / pilchards / eggs - and Lola ONLY has pork and tripe and pilchards.... and also I think you're right about the supplements, mine hardly have any nowadays, just trying to use up the omega 3,6,9 capsules I still have. I have no idea at all what mine eat in weight, I do it totally by eye, and if they look skinny I feed them more, if they look fat, I feed them less - not very technical I know, but miles easier. ;)
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I buy omega 3,6,9 capsules from Holland and Barratt and put a few in with the veg when I blend it; I pick out the capsule cases out when I put the veg in the ice cube trays ;)
Rachel. I know that all oils are heat sensitive -and the EFAs will denature if they are heated in any way (which is why they should be never be added to food if you might need to defrost quickly, e.g. via microwave or warm water).
:huh: Doesn't freezing have a similar effect? :-\
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Don't get toooo hung up on the variety thing
Point taken Penel :blink: . I think I just wan't to see if there is anything Fern doesn't like... :005:
I also want to give her some bone alternatives as so far she has only had chicken wings and poultry necks to crunch.
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Sam's conversion to BARF seems to be going well too. This morning he polished off his bowl and he has also had an egg, shells and all, that he loved. How often can they have eggs?
Also, I was wondering where I can get poultry necks?
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Up to 2 or 3 eggs a week should be fine. The poultry necks I have are Prize Choice supplied by Anglian Meat Products (A.M.P) (frozen food for working dogs). Although I got mine from my local pet shop freezer I think Pets at Home Sell A.M.P. Here is A.M.P's website on their 'find a local stockists page. http://www.prizechoice.co.uk/ They also do home delivery.
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Talking about sardines I gave ours the ones in extra virgin olive oil. more expensive I know, but is tomato sauce better.
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Changes to Fern since beginning BARF
I suppose that anyone thinking of changing to BARF will be interested in any changes, positive and negative, that occur to their dog. Although this is only day 8 I have already noticed:
Improvement in concentration. Selective deafness is reducing slightly. She seems to be listening to me more when out on walks off lead. No reduction in her energy levels though ::) .
Coat. Definately shinier.
Eyes. For the last week her eyes have been slightly runny. I am guessing that she is detoxifying. I notice from other posts that some dogs initially get the runs, some get flaky skin. With Fern it seemed to only affect her eyes. That has now all cleared up as from yesterday.
Edited to add: Oh and I almost forgot. Over the last couple of days Fern has been making happy, contented little grunting noises when she has come and sat down with us after her meal. That's something she hasn't done in years. I am taking that as a sign of approval ;) .
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Talking about sardines I gave ours the ones in extra virgin olive oil. more expensive I know, but is tomato sauce better.
I have no idea ladylola. I gave Fern tinned sardines in tomato sauce last night because that is what I had in the cupboard. I am not sure whether there is any nutrient value in vegetable oils for dogs or not :-\ .
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I give the ones in tomato sauce because the Holy Grail (AKA Penel) does it. If it's good enough for her dogs.... :lol:
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The things I've notced with Sam (and it's only a little things so far) is he has got a lovely wet nose all the time now, it had been becoming quite dry at times, and also although his poo was a little soft today he isn't doing anywhere near as many as he was even though he is eating really well. :D
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Changes to Fern since beginning BARF
Over the last couple of days Fern has been making happy, contented little grunting noises when she has come and sat down with us after her meal. That's something she hasn't done in years.
Aaahh that's lovely. :luv: Bless her...makes all the handling of raw meat and time spent whizzing veg so worthwhile doesn't it?
I can identify with the carrot poo! :005: I let Ruby have a whole carrot probably about once a week as she really enjoys them, but we always have that the following morning - doesn't do her any harm.
I don't supplement Ruby's diet - from her coat, her energy levels, her teeth, her happy nature and her poo ph34r, you can see that she is one healthy little dog in prime condition. I did buy some apple cider vinegar, and she's had the odd spoonful of that in her food, but I can't remember now what it's supposed to be good for.
Nor do I weigh out the food. A lot of the meat comes in set sizes so some meals are larger than others. I suppose she has less food when it's an oxtail or a chicken drumstick meal, and more when it's chicken wings (cos I give her two) or pieces of lamb with bone in them - which the butcher chops into generous portions. Turkey drumsticks I have a cleaver to cut up, but usually only manage to split into 3-4 pieces, so that's always a big meal - but often if she's had that for breakfast I might miss dinner, unless she's pestering for it.
I have a fair idea if I'm overfeeding her, as she will bury food in the garden if she's not all that hungry!
Great diary, by the way!
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I give the ones in tomato sauce because the Holy Grail (AKA Penel) does it. If it's good enough for her dogs.... :lol:
pmsl you guys ::) :lol:
Tilly is 8 yrs old now and has been on a raw diet since she was bout 3 yrs old. Those of you that have met her I hope agree she looks very healthy (apart from when she has rolled in green poo) :005: The others have been raw fed since I have had them but as they aren't as old as Tilly I don't think it "counts" as much.... I think its when they get older that you really notice the benefits of a raw natural diet. Having said that Hattie is 2 and a half and has been to the vets once in her life, that was to be spayed.
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This diary seems to have started a BARF revolution. Well OK not quite, perhaps that is an overstatement :005: , but there seem to be a few people on COL deciding to move over to BARF recently.
First I would like to say that it was due to my reading posts by 'the mighty Penel' that first caught my interest in BARF -and seeing those fabby pictures of her superbly fit and happy dogs bouncing around all over the place or lying around looking contented and disgustingly healthy grabbed my interest. So thanks Penel :D
Secondly and this is for those of you who are really worried, as I was, with this bone crunching and bits getting stuck issue. Now this may not make a blind bit of difference to Fern but it makes me feel better. I stick to the following rules:
1. I never feed Fern before a walk. I only feed her after one, when she has calmed down a little. The idea of her bombing about at high speed with all that freshly crunched bone inside her makes me feel uneasy somehow ph34r.
2. She only ever gets fed in a calm and quiet atmosphere, away from children, loud noises, visitors, other dogs or any external distractions that may mean she feel she has to leave, rush or guard her food.
3. Fern never gets crunchable bone (chicken wings etc) as the first part of her meal. She gets a bowl of raw mince/ offal and whizzed raw veg first. This is so, in my mind, she will sate her appetite before the bit that needs her undivided attention -in the hope that she will crunch slowly and thoroughly before she swallows.
I also have this, probably crazy, idea that the first part of her meal will be ready in her stomach to stimulate the digestive process and to cushion any sharpish bits of bone that follow.
None of this is due to anything I have read. It is all a product of my imagination (and a teeny bit of biological knowhow) but it does help me to feel a bit more relaxed about it :005:. If it helps anyone else who has similar thought processes then that's good :lol:.
The other things I keep reminding myself of is that:
1. cooked bone splinters as heat alters its molecular structure. Fern only ever gets fed raw bone which is much more pliable.
2. Their digestive system is NOT the same as ours and they have evolved over millions of years to thrive on raw bones and meat.
3. Raw meat containing fat is actually good for dogs. They use them as a source of fuel much like we use carbohydrates. Feeding all lean meat to a perfectly healthy dog is actually not a good idea.
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In the morning we are starting BARF.
Until Saturday I'm using the frozen blocks from PAH, as I hadn't got my act together in time for getting everything last weekend. Thanks to Rhona W, I'm following her menu, everythings planned and ready to go.
Keeping my fingers crossed that Sapphi and Max don't get upset tums like we did after the first chicken wing they had.
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I don't supplement Ruby's diet - from her coat, her energy levels, her teeth, her happy nature and her poo ph34r, you can see that she is one healthy little dog in prime condition. I did buy some apple cider vinegar, and she's had the odd spoonful of that in her food, but I can't remember now what it's supposed to be good for.
I think its good for joint stiffness
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This diary seems to have started a BARF revolution. Well OK not quite, perhaps that is an overstatement :005: , but there seem to be a few people on COL deciding to move over to BARF recently.
Happydog the diary's a great idea :D I haven't posted so far but I've been checking it every day. I've been feeding Alfie raw now for a couple of months and it's going really well. TBH I'm pretty laid back about it I haven't weighed out any of his food since the first couple of days of feeding BARF, I just feed him enough to keep him looking lean and fit and adjust it as necessary. He's in really good shape with gleaming teeth and coat and not a spare ounce of fat on him, he's all muscle. He's getting a mixture of the freeflow mince, tripe, organ meat, fish, veg, eggs and bones. I've found a really good butcher nearby who is providing me with whole rabbits and chicken backs with organs etc. attached so for two meals a week Alfie gets chucked in the garden with half a rabbit carcass to amuse himself with... yes, it is disgusting and yes my neighbours love me ph34r :005: but he's thriving on it so it's worth the funny looks over the hedge :lol:
Before I took the plunge I was a bit worried after reading about folk weighing this and that and working out ratios of x to y etc. but once you get going it's not difficult at all and I'd recommend it to anyone who's considering a change in diet for their dog.
I hope you keep up the diary, it's great to read Fern's progress! :D
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How honesty denied Fern a very special BARF meal today.
I only had time to give Fern a quick run today. I bundled her into the car and instead of driving her straight down the lane to the farm where she was born -went via the nearest town's butcher. Although the freezer is full of meat it is all hers >:D :005: and I had nothing to cook for us tonight.
So by the time I got to the farm (with bag of lambs liver on the floor of the passenger seat well, for our liver and bacon dinner :blink: ), it was about 3.30pm and Fern was pacing about in the back of the car muttering excitedly, torn between the enticing smell of raw liver and the enticing smell of the countryside (with all those luverlee game birds just waiting to be flushed from their bolt holes).
As I drove past the farmyard I noticed all the extra four wheel drives parked at the far end...and then I remembered that there was a shoot today ::) . I usually keep away on those days out of courtesy as I do not know the order of drives. I could have kicked myself for forgetting. Fern was by now desperate to get out of the car and it was too late to drive to another of her walks.
We got to one of the bridleways just in time to meet the beaters, dogs and farmer loading up the trailer ready to move off to the next drive. After a bit of teasing on his part about my poor memory he said it was fine to walk down past the wood, as they had just finished there, so off we went.
They had certainly saved a few birds for the next shoot, for Fern spent the next hour happily flushing between two and three dozen pheasant, who having fled the wood earlier and were all taking cover in the copses either side of the bridleway all neatly popped themselves straight back in to the wood :D Nice tidy little dog, my Fern :D
On the way back to the car I noticed a shot french partridge that had been missed by the picker uppers. It was lying by the hedge on the bridleway and was still warm. I picked it up and looked to see where the next drive was so I could add it to their bag. I couldn't see or hear them though. I put it in the car on the floor next to the bag of liver. Our dinner next to er -her dinner? All I could think of was how much Fern would enjoy a partridge for her dinner and how easy it would be to part pluck it and leave her to it ph34r. :005:
Honesty got the better of me and I left it with the farmers wife at the farmhouse on the way home. Fern had chicken mince, whizzed veg and an extra large chicken wing tonight.
Thanks for all the nice comments about this thread. Good luck to everybody embarking on BARF :D
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The farmers wife knocked today selling poppies for Remebrance Sunday and as it is so cold I invited her in whilst I found some money. Somehow I ended up telling her that I was now feeding Fern BARF. It went down like a lead ballon. After asking me why? She looked very doubtful, was horrified that I was feeding her chicken bones :o and began to lecture me about how they can splinter ::) then went on to say how thin Fern was >:D. I got a bit defensive I'm afraid.
It is her son who owns Ferns Mum, and now am I worried that I won't be able to get Fern Mark 2 when the time is right because they wont want one of their pups going to such an irresponsible owner :'( . I took months of reading to be convinced of the soundness of BARF feeding. I found it very hard to explain in a few short sentences and failed miserably. I know what I would say to others if they posted a similar comment. It is different when it actually happens to you though. :'( .
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Try not to get disheartened. I have been surprised by how ill-informed a lot of so called doggy people seem to be about different ways of doing things ::) And, come to that how open minded some others are! Hopefully, when they see how fit and healthy Fern is on BARF, they may come round and stop thinking you are an evil mummy trying to poison her dog! ;)
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I ended up telling her that I was now feeding Fern BARF. It went down like a lead ballon. After asking me why? She looked very doubtful, was horrified that I was feeding her chicken bones :o and began to lecture me about how they can splinter ::) then went on to say how thin Fern was >:D.
I know exactly how you feel. In the summer I had a woman who owns a Leonberger (very big, looks a bit like a St Bernard) stop and ask me in the park what diet I fed Ruby. Her dog was only a year old, but had a very dull coat, was smelly and hardly ate anything. You could see the bones sticking out of his bum, and he had no energy and no interest in food. The vets had found nothing wrong with him.
I told her I raw fed Ruby; mainly meat and bones, but also veg, fruit, egg and fish, all raw. She said in a rather condescending tone 'Oh I don't think that's a good idea', and (she was late forties, I am 25) that more experienced dog owners would know better. I was fuming!
I said, calmly, that this wasn't something that I had made up myself, but that this approach to feeding was well documented and I had read up extensively before switching Ruby's food over, and since doing it I was thrilled with the results as she thrived on the diet. I explained it was often referred to as the BARF diet, which stood for Biologically Appropriate Raw Food, and the theory (as the name suggests) was that you were trying to mimic what dogs would eat in the wild, i.e. what their bodies were designed to digest. I thought this summed it up quite neatly.
She was having none of it, and suggested the diet was irresponsible. She was cooking chickens and all sorts trying to get her dog to eat, so you would think in her situation she'd be interested in trying something new. Worse, she stopped and asked me about Ruby's diet specifically because she looked healthy and full of energy - in distinct contrast to her dog. What was the point if her own views were so set that she wasn't going to change? And how dare she be critical when she approached me! >:D I would never dream of criticising what other people choose to feed their dogs, it's their choice.
I took months of reading to be convinced of the soundness of BARF feeding. I found it very hard to explain in a few short sentences and failed miserably. I know what I would say to others if they posted a similar comment. It is different when it actually happens to you though. :'( .
This is exactly the point. Most people read widely before embarking on raw feeding fully informed. If you haven't heard of the idea, or read anything about it, how can you make a sweeping statement that it's not a good diet?
The things you hear are ridiculous. From choking to salmonella, to making your dog vicious by feeding bones, to turning them into sheep killers because you've fed them raw lamb, I've heard it all. What rubbish. I think everyone is entitiled to their own opinions, but if people insist on criticising my choice of diet for Ruby, I would be much happier if they were to do it from an informed perspective, rather than on the basis of a few old wive's tales they've heard with no scientific basis.
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Claire - did you point out to the woman that the diet must be doing good since she had asked you what you fed because she was so impressed by the condition of Ruby? :huh:
to making your dog vicious by feeding bones,
I had that one from my sister - Well it was more of a "They will turn wild." ::)
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Claire - did you point out to the woman that the diet must be doing good since she had asked you what you fed because she was so impressed by the condition of Ruby? :huh:
I tried to, but there are occassions when people have already made their mind up and whatever you say is never going to make any difference, and this was one of those.
I saw her two months or so later in the park; she was talking to one of the group of dogwalkers that I meet with every morning. I arrived half way through the conversation to hear her continuing woes of her dog that's off his food and getting thinner, and how she's tried changing to all sorts of different brands of dog food to no avail.....I didn't mention BARF again. If she had wanted to ask me about it again, she would have done and I would have been happy to give her some information. Clearly she didn't, which is a shame for her underweight dog.
to making your dog vicious by feeding bones,
I had that one from my sister - Well it was more of a "They will turn wild." ::)
Yes, I've had that a few times. I forgot to mention the 'raw feeding is very expensive' myth as well. As for the sheep one, Ruby disproved that theory when she met one for the first time the other week. It was sat in the middle of the grassy path we were walking along and wouldn't move. Despite having been fed raw lamb bones many times, she didn't feel the urge to chase and kill it...she felt the urge to hide behind my legs!
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(she was late forties,
So am I :005: :lol:
Some of us 'oldies' have an open mind to change :D . The farmers wife is in her late 70's , so I suppose I should give her some leeway ;). I had rather hoped that because of her age and her occupation, not only would she have memories of the days before tinned/dry dog food, but she would also have been more amenable to the idea of a natural diet. They are arable farmers though :-\ . Perhaps I was expecting too much. I think I shall keep my mouth shut about Ferns diet from now on, unless asked.
Thanks guys. I shall have to resist the urge to deliver copies of my BARF books to her door as an early Christmas pressie ph34r .
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(she was late forties,
So am I :005: :lol:
Some of us 'oldies' have an open mind to change :D . The farmers wife is in her late 70's , so I suppose I should give her some leeway ;). I had rather hoped that because of her age and her occupation, not only would she have memories of the days before tinned/dry dog food, but she would also have been more amenable to the idea of a natural diet. They are arable farmers though :-\ . Perhaps I was expecting too much. I think I shall keep my mouth shut about Ferns diet from now on, unless asked.
Thanks guys. I shall have to resist the urge to deliver copies of my BARF books to her door as an early Christmas pressie ph34r .
Bet you wish you'd held onto that French Partridge now dontcha!!! :005: :005: :005:
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Bet you wish you'd held onto that French Partridge now dontcha!!! :005: :005: :005:
Absolutely :rofl1: :rofl1: :rofl1:
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(she was late forties,
So am I :005: :lol:
Some of us 'oldies' have an open mind to change :D .
:lol: That's not what I meant! I mentioned her age and mine because of her comment about experienced dog owners knowing better than to raw feed. >:(
I think I shall keep my mouth shut about Ferns diet from now on, unless asked.
Thanks guys. I shall have to resist the urge to deliver copies of my BARF books to her door as an early Christmas pressie ph34r .
It is tempting when you first start out and see how much the dog enjoys it, actually how easy it really is, and how lovely and shiny their coat goes - and all the other benefits - to sing about BARF from the rooftops! Most people are at worst, appalled by the idea, and at best bemused. I haven't been met by a positive reaction yet. Now all I do is maybe mention I raw feed if the subject of dog's diet comes up, but I don't explain about it further unless anyone looks interested. I have to say, I don't know any other dog owners (excl COL) that do raw feed.
Yesterday we excelled ourselves on the raw feeding front...Ruby had springbuck steak. :D There's a place near us that sells unusual meat (alligator, ostrich, etc :o), and we bought some in for specials on the pub menu a while back. When rummaging through one of the chest freezers, I found one had gotten left. She liked it very much. :D
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:lol: That's not what I meant! I mentioned her age and mine because of her comment about experienced dog owners knowing better than to raw feed. >:(
Well this one doesn't obviously :005: Most people are at worst, appalled by the idea, and at best bemused. I haven't been met by a positive reaction yet.
That's what I'm finding. It's a strange old world. If BARF was a designer dog food with a huge advertising budget and fancy packaging which gave such good results, people would be falling over themselves in the rush to get it first ::) .Yesterday we excelled ourselves on the raw feeding front...Ruby had springbuck steak. :D There's a place near us that sells unusual meat (alligator, ostrich, etc :o), and we bought some in for specials on the pub menu a while back. When rummaging through one of the chest freezers, I found one had gotten left. She liked it very much. :D
Now that is one spoilt dog :lol:
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BARF Day 12.
The biggest problem I am having with BARF feeding at the moment is that as I am only feeding Fern meat from the freezer, this means I have to take it out to defrost a few hours beforehand. From the second her nose scents dinner she is pacing and waiting for it. A tin being opened and a rustle of mixer bag was a sign of imminent dinner. Now it's pure torture for her -poor starved little doglet ;) .
New veg mix tonight. Cabbage, cauli, brocolli, carrot, and garlic. Beef mince 400g (I only feed once a day) and half a dozen slices of poultry neck for 'pud'. Bowl licked clean at three separate visits :005:
Fern is definately happier on this amount. She is such an active dog that I really cannot see her thriving on much less. I wouldn't mind if she put on half a kilogram anyway.
Her eyes are still a bit gunky, but nothing that causes me concern. Her ears are fine, her coat is smashing, it went through a slightly greasy stage last week. the tartar remains on her canines although the rest of her teeth are looking brilliant white. Breath is still a little pongy. Wonder if it's worth giving them a scrub with Logic dog toothpaste for a few weeks?
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I haven't been met by a positive reaction yet.
Neither have I (although I have encountered some neutral opinions more recently), but find it interesting, cos its obviously becoming more popular - as I said in another thread, our local store has added another freezer to their store so they can increase their raw food range ;)
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I would give her canines a scrape - I use a flannel slightly damp just over my finger. If it is really hard stuck to her teeth you can often get it off with your thumbnail ;)
I don't really ever use the word BARF when I am telling people what I feed. I just say I feed a raw natural diet - and when they say what do you mean I say, raw tripe, raw meat, raw bones..... I think BARF sometimes puts people off...
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My butcher asked me last week if I was home cooking Paddy's food. I told him, no I feed him raw. He looked really puzzled but interested - said he breeds and shows Dobermans but is having problems with two of them, although he home cooks all their foods. I explained the "prey model" idea, no grains, no dairy - next thing, he was asking me to lend him my two books! Took them in to him yesterday and he was delighted. Might have a convert!
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Excellent I'll be well impressed if you convert a butcher - thing is, once he starts feeding two Dobes a raw diet, they'll take all the bones :lol:
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I keep devouring everything I can read on here regarding BARF how do you get round the Vet regarding this way of feeding ?? my vet is totally against it and made me feel a bit silly when I said I was going to try it :embarassed: it wasn't what he said, it was the way he looked at me and paused which seemed like forever, before he said "I supposed you will feed what you will, we are here to put things right" he didn't say what "things" but I came away feeling like a "silly Mummy" who in the vet's opinion was trying to make my poor girl ill.
I did speak to my neighbour's daughter who is a vet nurse at a different practice but they too were not keen on BARF either :huh:
Yet everyone on here seems to have had outstanding results, well with very few exceptions.
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I only only mentioned it to one vet at our practice and she was totally against it. However we decided we would still give it a try.
So many BARFers have said that their vets are against it but do comment on how healthy their dogs look (without realising they are being fed raw).
We haven't been to the vet since the change over so it would be interesting to see what they think of Buddy now.
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Our homeopathic vet is a huge fan of the raw diet, our normal vets not so much ;) I just ignore them. If I'd listened to them, Lola would have been on loads of drugs for nearly 3 years now, so that just shows I was right. :D
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Right thats it, Baggins and Phoebe are both going onto barf aswell. I am fed up with the quantity and odour of the end result of their JWB diet. The O/H wont like it but this thread will sort out any worries. I will probably be feeding the pre prep. AMP frozen packs. This is just for conveniance due to our jobs. Bones are not a problem as one of my mates is a butcher. Just a quick question, can I feed them raw rabbit? I have a never ending supply of them around a friends farm. ( sorry to any rabbit lovers..... but farmers dont see them in quite the same way).
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Great, another convert!
I would have thought rabbits were fine (part of a dogs natural diet surely?) as long as you know they haven't been poisoned! ;)
I don't blame you starting with the pre-prepared packs. The chopped tripe that Coco had this morning is enough to make me heave! She loved it though and it is gone in about 30 secs so I reckon I can live with it :shades:
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Neither my present conventional vet nor my previous conventional vet were very impressed that I fed raw. When Dill was ill I went against my own guts and fed him what the vet told me to - it made him worse. I carried on with this for quite a while but in the end I knew I had to stop. I went to see the homeopathic vet who told me what to feed (raw ;) ) and we've never looked back.
Daisy is also not very well at the moment and again the vet wanted her to go on a special prescription diet. When I refused I was treated like an idiot and was told 'we have a special nurse who deals with diets she knows ALL about it' >:( I just walked away ;) I like my vets - they are very good, kind people, but they have years of being told by rich pet food companies that their foods are brilliant and only processed commercial foods contain ALL the vitamins and minerals needed. I dont know whether that is true or not, but I do know that whenever I have fed them - for whatever reason - my dogs have not reacted well to them and that is enough for me to stick to my guns from here on in :D
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Just a quick question, can I feed them raw rabbit?
I know Rachel (IWLass) feeds Molo rabbit. It's a balanced meal of bone, meat and offal all in one.
I have a local butcher that is always advertising fresh rabbit, but I haven't plucked up the courage to do it yet. And the kids were absolutely disgusted that I could even suggest it. ph34r
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I know that they ( the rabbits) have not been poisoned apart from a very sudden lethal dose of lead. As they are all rifle shot I wont be picking out pellets for ever and a day either. I would have to try and figure out how much to feed next. Rabbit would only be on the menu once/twice per week. Am I correct in thinking that the pre prep frozen blocks contain bone and veg. too. I know that there are tripe, traditional, working and other varieties but is there one with veg. and bone too? I think that the bone is ground down and added, could be wrong.
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The frozen blocks and bags do contain veg. and bone so there is no need to add anything to them. :D
Just to mention, the blocks also contain grain, which some people do not recommend feeding to dogs, but the bags don't. :-\
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So many BARFers have said that their vets are against it but do comment on how healthy their dogs look (without realising they are being fed raw).
Definitely. I wait for the compliment about how good she looks, then I say it's down to her diet. ;)
When I switched Ruby to raw, we were still attending puppy classes at the vets. The vets' assistants/nurses that ran the classes were totally against the idea. They said she could choke, and proceeded to tell me horror stories of dogs that had had their insides punctured, ruptured and torn with bones they'd found. (Note the 'found' - i.e. KFC leftovers and the like that are COOKED).
It was worrying having to listen to the horror stories from professionals, but when they started talking about the risk of salmonella (I had just read about the shorter digestive tract in dogs, etc), their credibility went out the window.
I am SO pleased now looking at Ruby that I didn't let scaremongering by the uninformed deter me from raw feeding.
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this has been a great thread for all BARF converts!!
Has really helped me!
I am justing trying to get my eldest dog Annie (16mths) to eat the bones - she is not that keen :huh:
Teri (8mths) loves it all - no sickness or anything!
thanks all!!! ;)
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I know I posted before on another thread about my vets' reactions.
One (a woman) gave me a real dressing down. And got one in return. I pointed out that I'd done EVERYTHING they'd recommended for colitis, he'd had a colonoscopy, a gastroscopy, he'd had loads of antibiotics - six weeks' worth at one point - fed the prescription food, fed Nature Diet, fed (yuk - but the vet recommended it) Chappie. None of it worked. The drugs cleared the problem up temporarily then it returned. So: their conventional advice hadn't worked and in the meantime Paddy was smelly, windy, uncomfortable, had scaly skin (his rear end too tender to be stroked over the rump) and produced some disgusting "outputs". So why not try raw feeding.
Interestingly, the other vet, a chap, said he wasn't opposed to raw feeding, but to modern farming methods especially with regard to chicken because of the campylo bacter risks, and he'd had two or three of those over the years. (I forbore to point out that he'd probably had dozens/hundreds of dogs suffering from processed diet-induced diseases/illnesses over the same time frame which no one actually connected to diet). Around the same time, someone (SarahP or Penel, I think??) posted on here about chicken being a meat which can cause reactions in dogs, and SarahP also confirmed that she put Dill onto lamb-only, so I've eliminated the chicken risk (which I think is tiny anyway) for the time being.
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Right thats it, Baggins and Phoebe are both going onto barf aswell. I am fed up with the quantity and odour of the end result of their JWB diet. The O/H wont like it but this thread will sort out any worries. I will probably be feeding the pre prep. AMP frozen packs. This is just for conveniance due to our jobs. Bones are not a problem as one of my mates is a butcher. Just a quick question, can I feed them raw rabbit? I have a never ending supply of them around a friends farm. ( sorry to any rabbit lovers..... but farmers dont see them in quite the same way).
Alfie usually gets rabbit twice a week, I buy a whole one and give him half each time. I get OH to cleaver it in half :o ph34r then he gets chucked out onto the patio to crunch it up or in the kitchen on a black bin liner if it's raining (I am possibly one of the less sophisticated BARF feeders on here :005:). It's pretty gross but he loves it, other than his fresh sardines it's his favourite meal :D
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i plan also to feed sardines a couple of times per week and eggs.
good idea about the plastic bin liner....i have been putting the bones in the garden - but annie loves to eat in the kitchen where we alll are - so may try the bin liner idea....teri is fine eating hers in the garage where her crate is - she loves the bones !!! ;)
where else do people feed their dogs and what on?
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Just to clarify the rabbit diet, do you feed it innards 'an all. I know that offle is a part of the barf diet and I know that my two love "rabbit raisins" >:D.Come to think of it they like everything that comes out of a sheep too!
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Just to clarify the rabbit diet, do you feed it innards 'an all. I know that offle is a part of the barf diet and I know that my two love "rabbit raisins" >:D.Come to think of it they like everything that comes out of a sheep too!
Yep, the whole shebang! We buy it whole and skinned but not gutted so OH does the business with the cleaver and Alfie gets given the whole half at a time if you know what I mean.
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Yep, the whole shebang! We buy it whole and skinned but not gutted so OH does the business with the cleaver and Alfie gets given the whole half at a time if you know what I mean.
Ok. I hate to ask because I really don't want to hear the answer. ph34r But does that include the head? :-\ I really don't think I could watch them eat that part. :embarassed:
(Especially if the rabbit was watching me. ph34r )
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Just a quick question, can I feed them raw rabbit?
I know Rachel (IWLass) feeds Molo rabbit. It's a balanced meal of bone, meat and offal all in one.
I have a local butcher that is always advertising fresh rabbit, but I haven't plucked up the courage to do it yet. And the kids were absolutely disgusted that I could even suggest it. ph34r
Yup - I feed rabbit; I pay £6 for 3 from the butcher, which are skinned, gutted and have had their head/paws removed ;) The heart/kidneys are included though :) Currently, the butcher portions them up for me, I get four or five meals for each rabbit - but Molo prefers it diced ::)
I have an offer of freshly shot rabbits from a colleague; once I learn how to skin them ;) I will probably gut them too - I'm not sure I can face the smell of the stomach/intestines; I find rabbit has a quite strong smell even when gutted ph34r
Rhona - there are so many rabbits around here that they have long ceased to be "cute and fluffy", even to children ph34r ph34r
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Oooer I am not sure my stomach or my heart could take the rabbit thing if I convert, the thoughts of what you are all doing to the rabbits is bringing tears to my eyes.
I know it is only nature after all but feeding with insides intact makes me feel really icky :o
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I would love to have a supply of rabbits - they are not that easy to get round here.... yes I would let them eat the whole lot....rabbits are probably the most natural thing for a dog to eat..... one thing though, if you feed it fresh, and not frozen for a while first - then you will need to be aware that rabbits often have tapeworm - when we got Gracie she had tapeworm, most likely from killing and eating rabbits.... so regular worming, with a wormer that kills tapeworm would be recommended if you are feeding fresh rabbits.
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one thing though, if you feed it fresh, and not frozen for a while first - then you will need to be aware that rabbits often have tapeworm - when we got Gracie she had tapeworm, most likely from killing and eating rabbits.... so regular worming, with a wormer that kills tapeworm would be recommended if you are feeding fresh rabbits.
So presumably, if you freeze the rabbits for a while before feeding them that would solve the tapeworm issue? :huh:
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Thanks to Claire. I've been reading right through this thread seeing what you are talking about but not knowing exactly what BARF stands for :D
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[/quote]
I had that one from my sister - Well it was more of a "They will turn wild." ::)
[/quote]
As I am now commiitted to switching to Barf I decided to read through the thread again. The thought of huge herds of cocker spaniels sweeping majesticaly accross the plain...........
I am constantly reminded that Baggins is one step away from a timber wolf as he sits on the end of my bed with a sock in his mouth :lol:
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The thought of huge herds of cocker spaniels sweeping majesticaly accross the plain...........
I am constantly reminded that Baggins is one step away from a timber wolf as he sits on the end of my bed with a sock in his mouth :lol:
:005: :005:
I can just see the front of the Daily Mail
"Bunny eating Cocker Spaniels on mad dog rampage horror!"
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Thanks to Claire. I've been reading right through this thread seeing what you are talking about but not knowing exactly what BARF stands for :D
Biologically Approropriate Raw Food :D
or Bones And Raw Food.. Take your pick.
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Just to mention, the blocks also contain grain, which some people do not recommend feeding to dogs, but the bags don't. :-\
:huh: I've just openend an A.M.P. 400g green tripe block and it doesn't mention any grain in the ingredients :-\
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The thought of huge herds of cocker spaniels sweeping majesticaly accross the plain...........
:rofl1: I think that's quite a nice image.
I am constantly reminded that Baggins is one step away from a timber wolf as he sits on the end of my bed with a sock in his mouth :lol:
Yes, Ruby wouldn't mind being wild...as long as it wasn't raining outside, and she could come home in the evening and have someone cuddle her on the sofa and tickle her ears. :luv:
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Thanks to Claire. I've been reading right through this thread seeing what you are talking about but not knowing exactly what BARF stands for :D
Biologically Approropriate Raw Food :D
or Bones And Raw Food.. Take your pick.
Or rather mockingly by those not in support (I read somewhere) Born Again Raw Feeders! :lol:
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this has been a great thread for all BARF converts!!
Has really helped me!
I am justing trying to get my eldest dog Annie (16mths) to eat the bones - she is not that keen :huh:
Teri (8mths) loves it all - no sickness or anything!
thanks all!!! ;)
I am finding that Fern is not keen on the larger thicker bones. I think her jaw muscles need strengthening so I am only giving her chicken wings to begin with and when she is proficient in crunching those thoroughly and easily I will gradually introduce her to larger ones.
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Thanks to Claire. I've been reading right through this thread seeing what you are talking about but not knowing exactly what BARF stands for :D
Biologically Approropriate Raw Food :D
or Bones And Raw Food.. Take your pick.
Or rather mockingly by those not in support (I read somewhere) Born Again Raw Feeders! :lol:
:005: I like that. I am learning to suppress the urge to try to convert every dog owner I meat meet. 'I have seen the light'(s) (sorry 'bout the puns ph34r )
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Coco has turned her nose up at turkey mince this morning! >:( It is the first time she has failed to wolf ( :shades:) her food down and she has enjoyed it the last few times. Maybe I will try mixing it in with something. Thank doG I haven't bought it in bulk ::)
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Just to mention, the blocks also contain grain, which some people do not recommend feeding to dogs, but the bags don't. :-\
:huh: I've just openend an A.M.P. 400g green tripe block and it doesn't mention any grain in the ingredients :-\
Perhaps it is just the meat ones. :-\
Does it not list maize as an ingredient? :-\
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I do have one problem with this BARF thing. Ferns poos.
They are less frequent, smaller, harder and I never know what colour they are going to be from one day to the next. Consequently I keep missing the little ones in the garden when I am cleaning up - and now the Silver Birch leaves are falling onto the lawn, I 've got NO chance.
When they were a uniform colour and size at least I knew what I was hunting for >:( .
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Just to mention, the blocks also contain grain, which some people do not recommend feeding to dogs, but the bags don't. :-\
:huh: I've just openend an A.M.P. 400g green tripe block and it doesn't mention any grain in the ingredients :-\
Perhaps it is just the meat ones. :-\
Does it not list maize as an ingredient? :-\
Nope. It is 'AMP Prize Choice 400g 100% natural meat diet'. Ingredients are listed as: 'Beef tripe, Mince size 5mm max. No artificial colouring, fillers, preservatives, additives or cereals.' :blink:
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Coco has turned her nose up at turkey mince this morning! >:( It is the first time she has failed to wolf ( :shades:) her food down and she has enjoyed it the last few times. Maybe I will try mixing it in with something. Thank doG I haven't bought it in bulk ::)
Try putting it in a pan or the microwave just for a few seconds so it starts to go brown at the edges and smell appetising. Or add some gravy. :D
I have to brown the outside of liver if I want Ruby to eat it...I tend to stick it under the grill. The smell is unbearable ph34r, I have to admit...so much so that I have only bought kidneys and heart as the offal part of her diet since because she will eat these completely raw.
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Well my two are just about to be fed their first barf meal....... rabbit mix from amp. Which is daft as I have three rabbits in the freezer :005:
I think that I have got it about right with portion control. Half a block each twice a day. Thats just to get started, I've sorted out lamb breats and chicken wings too from local very freindly butcher. Was given 2 large marrow bones today aswell.
Let you know what the verdict was later..................
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I take it that the occasional beef marrow bone is ok. These ones are huge mind you, came from a Rutland mammoth ;)
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Oooer I am not sure my stomach or my heart could take the rabbit thing if I convert, the thoughts of what you are all doing to the rabbits is bringing tears to my eyes.
I know it is only nature after all but feeding with insides intact makes me feel really icky :o
Me too. I'm afraid I am not up to rabbits, or roadkill for Ruby (even if she would be)...I was vegetarian myself for a number of years, and have never myself eaten rabbit, venison, or anything 'adventurous'. But it's not a pre-requisite to have a strong stomach in order to raw feed. As much as mine or your cocker might enjoy a rabbit, if you can't face it, then don't feed it.
When I first started reading about raw feeding, some of these thoughts almost put me off. But you can buy fresh meat from the butchers or the supermarket, and just ask them to cut it to the size you want, then simply put it into sandwich bags in the freezer. Chicken wings, thighs, drumsticks, turkey mince, fish, raw eggs and stewing beef or lamb are all easily bought in the supermarket with virtually no prep required. As are lamb's hearts, kidneys and liver if you feel slightly bolder.
I buy all of the above from the supermarket as well as oxtail and lamb with bones in from the butcher. All Ruby's meat is human grade - nothing with fur or heads for me!
I just wanted to point out to the less adventurous amongst us, that raw feeding does not have to be gruesome, and not to let that aspect put you off if you're considering it. You can just buy meat for the dog when you're doing your normal food shopping/supermarket run for the you and the rest of the family.
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I take it that the occasional beef marrow bone is ok. These ones are huge mind you, came from a Rutland mammoth ;)
Yes, I think the advice is not too often to avoid the wearing down of teeth. They're in for a treat then, I bet they'll love the first raw meal.
My OH bought Ruby a cow 'hock'? for a treat. I think it's the hip/shoulder joint. It was humungous! Much bigger than her head, and she had to drag it rather than carry it. Boy did she have a big smile on her face though... :luv:
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Just thought I'd add that thanks to some advice and support from Penel ( :angel:), as of today, little Zorro is officially a raw fed pup. He had mince for breakfast, a chicken wing for lunch and will have mince again for his dinner.
I'm having to learn how to feed two doggies at once without world war III breaking out and without the pair of them swallowing rather inappropriately sized chunks of meat/bone in one go to beat the other one to it ::). Yesterday they were fed in the same room as each other (different ends of the kitchen) and Bella swallowed her breakfast pretty much whole and was then sick later, and Zorro had to have his chicken wing held onto to stop him doing the same.
So the new routine is to shut both of them out while the food is being prepared (the excitement that builds up over you getting a couple of bags out of the fridge >:D), and then I ask for "Bella ONLY" (she knows this from the dogwalker - they get driven round in a black cab and as each one is dropped off, Simon says "Spot ONLY" or whatever the dog's name is, and the rest stay where they are). Bella then gets ushered to the porch and the door shut, and then it's "Zorro ONLY" (even though it's only him left :lol:) and he gets ushered to his spot in the kitchen. And so far it's working, they're eating a tiny bit more carefully and no sick doggies today. :D
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Yep, the whole shebang! We buy it whole and skinned but not gutted so OH does the business with the cleaver and Alfie gets given the whole half at a time if you know what I mean.
Ok. I hate to ask because I really don't want to hear the answer. ph34r But does that include the head? :-\ I really don't think I could watch them eat that part. :embarassed:
(Especially if the rabbit was watching me. ph34r )
Yes I'm afraid it does. No ears though! :P :005: :005:
Hark at me :005: I don't even touch the thing, OH does it all when it's rabbit night!
We do have to be careful with the worming though as we always feed it fresh.
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Just thought I'd add that thanks to some advice and support from Penel ( :angel:), as of today, little Zorro is officially a raw fed pup.
That's great - I bet he loves it. Glad to hear you've averted WWIII :005: and there's been no more sick.
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A big thanks to everyone and woofs from Baggins and Phobe. The amp rabbit mix didnt touch the sides and the half a corrot for pudding was chewed up slowly. This pre prep food must smell great as I have never seen a reaction like it for their dinner. Both were quivering and making little whinning noises.
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Both were quivering and making little whinning noises.
:luv: Aahhhhhhh the joys of BARF.
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I just wanted to point out to the less adventurous amongst us, that raw feeding does not have to be gruesome, and not to let that aspect put you off if you're considering it. You can just buy meat for the dog when you're doing your normal food shopping/supermarket run for the you and the rest of the family.
Very true - this is how my OH would prefer to raw-feed Molo ;) It can work out quite expensive this way, and might be more economical to consider buying the pre-packed AMP/Prize Choice products if you don't have a good butcher nearby ;)
I think that I have got it about right with portion control. Half a block each twice a day.
Are they the 400g blocks? I tend to feed Molo half that amount (half a block a day split over 2 meals), with added veggies.....but all dogs are different so you might find yourself having to play with the quantities for a few weeks if they gain/lose weight ;)
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I think that I have got it about right with portion control. Half a block each twice a day.
Are they the 400g blocks? I tend to feed Molo half that amount (half a block a day split over 2 meals), with added veggies.....but all dogs are different so you might find yourself having to play with the quantities for a few weeks if they gain/lose weight ;)
I am finding how much it varies myself. Fern quite happily ate a 400g AMP block of tripe with veggies and a chicken wing yesterday at one sitting. Tonight she had 400g lamb mince veggies and a chicken wing. She is a little scrap of a cocker at 11.15Kg and a little more weight wouldn't go amiss. I shall nip her down to the vet and weigh her in a couple of weeks, just to check that the weight is going on and not coming off :blink:.
Oh -and Claire, it takes just under 4 minutes for a chicken wing to be demolished now. She is definately getting more confident with the crunching :blink:.
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Yes they are the 400g blocks. I weighed them Baggins is 13kg and phoebe is 10kg. Used the 3% of body weight rule and rounded up a bit. Phoebe could do with fattening up a bit anyway. They are only 7 months old so not at their full body weight yet. I am going to try and stick to the half carrot, peice of brocolli half an apple etc as opposed to mushing it all up and adding it to their food. They just love to crunch fruit and veg.
When I got the amp blocks today the girl in the shop asked if I was adding mixer, doesn't this defeat the point? Other than that the shop had a very possitive response and said how many people were converts and that they had nothing but good reports.
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When I got the amp blocks today the girl in the shop asked if I was adding mixer, doesn't this defeat the point?
Yes I think it does. Carbohydrates play no part in a dogs nutrient requirements. It is only used as a filler. Some people do like to mix it up a bit though and can't quite make the break from meat and mixer ::) . I was one of those, but then decided that there was no point in doing BARF at all unless I did it properly. (Once the Bonios are used up I won't be replacing them honestly ph34r :005: )
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I am going to try and stick to the half carrot, peice of brocolli half an apple etc as opposed to mushing it all up and adding it to their food. They just love to crunch fruit and veg.
One of the reasons for blending/processing the vegetables is because it makes them more digestable - in the wild, the small amount of vegetable matter in a dogs diet would be obtained from the stomach contents of herbivores they eat; so leaving the veggies whole may lead to less absorption of the nutrients :-\
I give Molo both - he gets whole veggies to crunch on between meals, but I puree and freze veg to include with his mince ;) It certainly makes a difference - my last lot of pureed veg included red cabbage - it may have gone in purple, but all the goodness was absorbed before it came out again ph34r Whole carrots tend to come out more or less how they went in ph34r
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Learning all the time, ok I'll do both
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I am going to try and stick to the half carrot, peice of brocolli half an apple etc as opposed to mushing it all up and adding it to their food. They just love to crunch fruit and veg.
One of the reasons for blending/processing the vegetables is because it makes them more digestable - in the wild, the small amount of vegetable matter in a dogs diet would be obtained from the stomach contents of herbivores they eat; so leaving the veggies whole may lead to less absorption of the nutrients :-\
I give Molo both - he gets whole veggies to crunch on between meals, but I puree and freze veg to include with his mince ;)
I do this too Rachel. :blink:
red cabbage - it may have gone in purple, but all the goodness was absorbed before it came out again ph34r
The presence or absence of a vegetable colour in faeces isn't a terribly reliable indicator of nutrient absorbtion ;)
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red cabbage - it may have gone in purple, but all the goodness was absorbed before it came out again ph34r
The presence or absence of a vegetable colour in faeces isn't a terribly reliable indicator of nutrient absorbtion ;)
I was taught that it was? The colour of the veg is the result of the presence of chemicals including vitamins - in the case of red cabbage, vitamin A - so where does it go?? (http://img236.exs.cx/img236/9268/scratchchin6hy.gif)
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The frozen blocks of Natures Menu do have maize in them.
The other AMP blocks don't.
The "Rabbit dinner" is actually mostly chicken, with about 4% of rabbit added, similar to the "Lamb dinner" which is mainly chicken, with some lamb added.
When mine are eating their breakfast (out of bowls) they all have an area where they eat, and they are NOT permitted to move around - I am "dinner lady" prowling around and I would tell them off if they tried to mug each other ! same goes for dinner time, when they eat their raw meaty bones - except this time, they have more space between them, as the bones are higher value - and I keep a much closer eye on them as Tilly has been known to mug the others.... :005:
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The frozen blocks of Natures Menu do have maize in them.
The other AMP blocks don't.
Sorry. My mistake there then. Got my brands mixed up. :embarassed:
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I just wanted to point out to the less adventurous amongst us, that raw feeding does not have to be gruesome, and not to let that aspect put you off if you're considering it. You can just buy meat for the dog when you're doing your normal food shopping/supermarket run for the you and the rest of the family.
Very true - this is how my OH would prefer to raw-feed Molo ;) It can work out quite expensive this way, and might be more economical to consider buying the pre-packed AMP/Prize Choice products if you don't have a good butcher nearby ;)
It's not too bad actually, although when I started BARF I thought it would be more expensive than a good quality commercial food...it isn't. Our nearby supermarkets are Asda, Tescos and Somerfield and the prices for fresh meat are about the same. For under 90p you can buy a tray of chicken wings - that's 8-10 wings. A bag of frozen chicken thighs (about 6) is around £2, a pack of pig's kidneys or 2 lamb's hearts or a turkey drumstick (3-4 meals once OH cleavers it) are £1.10ish. Asda value sardines in tomato sauce are 18p a tin, turkey mince (and let's not forget eggs) are not a lot either. Beef (oxtail) and lamb with bone in I tend to buy from the butchers - £5 for a carrier bag of each. I buy stewing beef or lamb or even braising steak when it is reduced in the supermarket as they often are. Offal is also regularly reduced in the supermarket.
Living in London means that we don't have a great local butcher nearby; we have two mediocre ones, but raw feeding is certainly cheaper than I thought it would be. As the food that best suited Ruby before I found BARF was Nature's Menu frozen blocks at 75p each...raw certainly works out cheaper than that, even bought wholly from a supermarket.
Oh -and Claire, it takes just under 4 minutes for a chicken wing to be demolished now. She is definately getting more confident with the crunching :blink:.
They get the hang pretty quickly, don't they? :005:
bones are higher value - and I keep a much closer eye on them as Tilly has been known to mug the others.... :005:
Might have known it would be the cocker... :lol:
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I'm feeding the amp blocks at the mo. Ones without maize. Chicken wings and lamb ribs etc start on Friday. There is going to be some competition over the pilchards though............ I like them too!
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bones are higher value - and I keep a much closer eye on them as Tilly has been known to mug the others.... :005:
Might have known it would be the cocker... :lol:
tisn't cos she is a cocker, tis cos she is the oldest and they are all scared of her :lol:
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Re-read Kymythy Schultze's book over the last few days and saw a couple of remarks about fat content - I think on this or the other BARF thread Rhona had asked about the irritant potential of fat, because I'd posted that I avoided too much in case it set Paddy's colitis off.
According to Kymmy, fat is good so long as it's kept in balance with the prey model. She doesn't refer to proportions though - although as I said in other post - don't see too many fat rabbits in the wild!
On keeping the cost down, I did a quick trot round Tesco fresh and frozen meat last week to compare lamb mince prices. There were four choices:
1. Fresh organic. Sorry Paddy: can't afford this for me, so not getting it for you.
2. Fresh ordinary - about 25% fat.
3. Frozen Tesco branded bags - about 3kg bag - about 22% fat and same level of protein as the fresh ordinary;
4. Frozen Tesco "Value" bags - about 40% fat and lower protein than other frozen (unsurprisingly) mince.
When I've used up my current meat in the freezer, I'm going to replace it with the Tesco branded frozen variety - also has the advantage of being that "free flow" stuff - so it's not frozen in a great big clump, all separated in the bag. Will make serving it straight from the bag an easy reality....
Denise
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are the amp freeflow 1kg bags not cheaper?
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are the amp freeflow 1kg bags not cheaper?
Yes!
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Well this thread has been and still is brilliant. My two are wolfing down everything that's put in front of them. Got a huge bag of lamb ribs and chicken bits and a few small marrow bones today. Chicken bones are crunched down no probs. Not tried the lamb ribs yet, but I'm expecting the same reaction. Pilchards, in tomato sauce, were really savoured today. Phoebe licked hers clean first before eating them.
More to the point its a lot cheaper too. A mate who happens to be a butcher does help a bit.
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Tried sasha again with a chicken wing today. she held it in her mouth for ages.then burried it behind a cushion, finally she dropped it on the kitchen floor. would not eat it.also found the breast of lamb in asda so i cut a chunk complete with ribs and gave her that, she shot off with it, it was quite a large piece. I gave ellie her first chicken wing in her crate she was so excited. tucked in with great relish but she was growling all the time she was eating it. she polished it off. Sasha came back 5 mins later minus the lamb.as i was so busy watching ellie in case she choked, i didn't see where sasha took her lamb. surely she couldn't eat it that quick could she. it was quite a big piece. I have looked allover to see if she has hidden it, but nothing. just hope she didn't bury it in my bed. They had the rabbit block for tea and loved that. they also like anything minced. I tried her on a rabbit from the butchers she wouldn't eat that either, I ended up cooking it, she ate it then. still will probalbly get there in the end. little >:D
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Sorry, asking another question again. I read somewhere on here that there was a photo posted of the correct breast of lamb to ask for. I got a load of lamb ribs connected to the breast bone? Fair ammount of meat on them but not as much as I thought there might be.They're still eating them though.
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(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/penel/breastoflamb.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/penel/Lambribs2.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/penel/Lambribs.jpg)
all of the above are breast of lamb complete with bones - the top one has more meat on it...
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Ooo Penel. I've just spent ages (well minutes! :005: ) searching for your other photos and you beat me to it!
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=20311.75
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Mine, well the lambs :005:, didnt look like that. More like the ribs sticking out of the Nevada desert.Almost a complete rib cage. I take it that all lamb bones are ok. It was obviously the back bone that they were attached to. Lamb anatomy was never my strongpoint.
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Sorry Rhona :005:
Yup all lamb bones are ok, but remember the meatier the better... too much bone could cause constipation. Backbone is pretty hard so might not be one to give a new raw eater straight away.
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Mine, well the lambs :005:, didnt look like that. More like the ribs sticking out of the Nevada desert.Almost a complete rib cage. I take it that all lamb bones are ok. It was obviously the back bone that they were attached to. Lamb anatomy was never my strongpoint.
The ones I get are like that. Sometimes there is more meat on them than others. I have started to buy pork ribs from Sainsburys and they have a mixture of boney lamb ribs and meaty pork ones.
They have the neck for a recreational bone.
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Thanks once again. Bit late to get the back bone off them, they've eaten most of it. Got some necks too, with lots of meat on them. So pork is ok?
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So pork is ok?
Yes. :D
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BARF Day 26
I took Fern for a stress free visit to the vets today, just to weigh her. The comments from the farmers wife that she was looking 'painfully thin' after only the first week on a BARF diet had got me paranoid that Fern was losing rather than gaining weight. Which weighing in a 11.25Kg on day 1., she cannot afford to do. I upped her food after that conversation and she has been having 400g of AMP mince, veg and a chicken wing most days. I alternate this with heart chunks, poultry necks, sardines and egg (two tins :o of cheap Asda sardines in tomato sauce), but always with raw whizzed veggies and most times a chicken wing to finish. She seems quite happy on this and, touch wood has not been sick through overeating or looked bloated.
The extra treats have been mainly very tiny pieces of liver cake -due to the (deliberately) dwindling stocks of coloured chopped hide chews, milky bones and Bonios. She has a pigs ear once or twice a week and the odd scraps of cooked left overs.(No mashed potato though it has a 'loosening effect' ifkwim ph34r)
Anyway...... Fern now weighs 11.90Kg :D. I am delighted. She is looking really good and is very happy with her new food. I am still working through the original freezer load but have bought some more AMP working dog green tripe blocks(doG they STINK!!!) to help her put on a bit of weight. The chicken wings have now run out and I have replaced them with a pack of tiny chicken legs. I am not going to give her lamb, pork or beef bones for a while as I am still trying to get the poo consitency right by juggling the veg/bone ratios. She had a touch of the proverbials after I tried her with raw pigs liver the other week and then I overdid it with the bone ::) which meant lots of tiny hard poos :P. Best to get the bowel function on a even keel before I introduce anything new methinks.
I shall now reduce the amount I feed slightly so she doesn't get too fat. She is as lively and energetic as she ever was, but slightly more focussed when out on walks. Her recall is better. It seems that it is not only children who suffer from hyperactivity when fed highly processed diets. This is one aspect of BARF feeding that I hadn't expected and it has come as a pleasant surprise.
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:D :D :D :D
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:D :D :D :D
:-\ Do you think we're doing OK then? :shades: :D
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:D :D :D :D
:-\ Do you think we're doing OK then? :shades: :D
;) not bad :shades:
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:D :D :D :D
:-\ Do you think we're doing OK then? :shades: :D
;) not bad :shades:
Any helpful hints? :D
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:D :D :D :D
:-\ Do you think we're doing OK then? :shades: :D
;) not bad :shades:
Any helpful hints? :D
don't think you need any, you're doing very well on your own ;) :D
stop worrying, and stop weighing - that'd be my hint :lol:
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[stop worrying, and stop weighing - that'd be my hint :lol:
:rofl1: It was the farmers wife that did it! She was so appalled that I was feeding chicken bones to one of her family's pups.
Now I know that Fern is thriving on BARF I shall take your advice :005:
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[stop worrying, and stop weighing - that'd be my hint :lol:
:rofl1: It was the farmers wife that did it! She was so appalled that I was feeding chicken bones to one of her family's pups.
Now I know that Fern is thriving on BARF I shall take your advice :005:
:D and when they say how marvellous she looks, you can tell 'em why :005:
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Sure will :lol:
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I emailed the AMP people yesterday about their Prize Choice frozen minces and chunks. I am going to buy the next batch of Ferns food online. As there has been a bit of discussion about the need for bone in a BARF diet -particularly for those who are only gradually getting their dogs used to actual raw meaty bones, I thought I would check which of their products contained bone and which did not. I asked them whether any of their Prize Choice 'dinners' contained vegetables and cereals or whether it was 100% meat. I also couldn't tell which was raw frozen and which was cooked frozen. This is their reply:
All our products are raw frozen except our roast chicken which is cooked and frozen ready to eat which is very popular to alot of our customers.
Lamb and rabbit dinner are fresh frozen minces made from whole cuts of meat and nothing else, they arrive at our factory raw and frozen and leave raw and frozen.
All our ranges of 400g frozen minces, 2kg frozen freeflow minces, 2kg wholemeat chunks and our 454g standard range are are plain raw frozen products , besides the roast chicken, all minced,except the chunks.
The 400g minces contain ground bone 4% approx, except the All beef one does not contain any.
Animal breast trim is cuts of poultry mainly turkey.
I've just placed my first order online. I think I shall just have enough room in my freezer for it :-\ .
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I think I shall just have enough room in my freezer for it :-\ .
I had to buy a second freezer when I switched to BARF. :005:
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BARF Day 38
Fern has at last reached the stage of the two minute chicken wing. She demolishes small chicken legs at a similar rate, with plenty of careful crunching and with no resulting adverse effects at either end, so I think her jaws must be getting stronger and her digestion has adapted well.
Time to move up a notch on the BARF.
I bought breast of lamb yesterday, a good meaty piece with very little fat (as breast of lamb goes) about 800g, and cut it roughly in half down between the ribs, saving half for today. I chopped up the meaty bone free bit into small chunks and gave it to her with her whizzed veg in her bowl. It disappeared in a flash. So I gave her the remaining piece whole and told her to 'take it out'. Outside on the patio she dropped it and looked quizzically at me as only a cocker can. 'What do I do with this Mum?' 'Take it' I said. She looked, licked, looked at me again...licked some more and then sat looking at it... ::) I took it in and cut down between the bones so she had three or four pieces resembling spare ribs and about the same thickness as a chicken wing. Then I gave her one and sat down outside with her. She put it down on the patio. More licking, more quizzical looks. 'Good girl, take it'... She picked it up and brought it to me. I took it and she immediately wanted it back. I gave it back to her, she put it down and licked some more and then slowly, gingerly began to chew. 'Good girl' I said, each time she crunched. I think because she is naturally a soft mouthed breed, this idea of being able to crunch anything in her mouth is quite an alien concept to her. She keeps looking at me as if to say 'is this really OK to do?' It took some time, but she took each piece from me as I offered it. Finally she licked the patio clean! The whole episode took about half an hour. No vomiting afterwards and pooing normally today ;) .
Tonight we repeated the process to finish off the breast. I don't think i'll be doing this more than once every week or so as the bone feeding with Fern involves sitting outside with her whilst she eats, or she just wants to come straight in ::). It's getting cold out there at this time of year and I feed her at 5.30 pm. I can do the 5 minute chicken wings thing, but the breast of lamb will be mainly a spring/summer food methinks :005:
AMP
I cancelled my online AMP order and stocked up from my local pet shop again. I got to the payment option and a message popped up saying that they would contact me :huh: . When I telephoned I was told that they don't yet have a secure site (one is planned for next year) and then they wanted to add a surcharge for paying over the phone with a credit card :o ! I got a bit narked with this as there is no mention of this on their web site, even when you have placed your order >:( , so I cancelled on principle and told them why. I then thought that the minimum order of £50 worth, might not have fitted in my freezer anyway, what with the extra Christmas goodies I shall want to put in there, even though I had padded out the order with a box of pigs ears. They were a good price too -shame. Thanks for the warning Rhona W. An extra freezer for one dog isn't something I can run to atm :005:
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Thanks for the warning Rhona W. An extra freezer for one dog isn't something I can run to atm :005:
:005: We bought a second hand one off ebay for £40! ;) And it's in better condition than my house freezer. ph34r
Glad to hear it is all going well. :D I couldn't be doing with feeding outside either. My pair eat in doors on the laminate floor and then I wipe it over with a bacterial floor wipe.
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Thanks for the warning Rhona W. An extra freezer for one dog isn't something I can run to atm :005:
:005: We bought a second hand one off ebay for £40! ;) And it's in better condition than my house freezer. ph34r
Glad to hear it is all going well. :D I couldn't be doing with feeding outside either. My pair eat in doors on the laminate floor and then I wipe it over with a bacterial floor wipe.
I had to get a new freezer too when I started BARF too. I looked around and couldn't afford a new one at the time, Rhona suggested ebay to me but there weren't any in my area. Then my friend suggested the Yeller (like free ads) and I got one from there for £40 and its in perfect condition. ;)
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Thanks for the warning Rhona W. An extra freezer for one dog isn't something I can run to atm :005:
:005: We bought a second hand one off ebay for £40! ;) And it's in better condition than my house freezer. ph34r
Glad to hear it is all going well. :D I couldn't be doing with feeding outside either. My pair eat in doors on the laminate floor and then I wipe it over with a bacterial floor wipe.
I had to get a new freezer too when I started BARF too. I looked around and couldn't afford a new one at the time, Rhona suggested ebay to me but there weren't any in my area. Then my friend suggested the Yeller (like free ads) and I got one from there for £40 and its in perfect condition. ;)
No room for another one without reorganising the kitchen/utility and it is only 18 months since we did that :embarassed: :'(
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Thanks for the warning Rhona W. An extra freezer for one dog isn't something I can run to atm :005:
:005: We bought a second hand one off ebay for £40! ;) And it's in better condition than my house freezer. ph34r
Glad to hear it is all going well. :D I couldn't be doing with feeding outside either. My pair eat in doors on the laminate floor and then I wipe it over with a bacterial floor wipe.
I had to get a new freezer too when I started BARF too. I looked around and couldn't afford a new one at the time, Rhona suggested ebay to me but there weren't any in my area. Then my friend suggested the Yeller (like free ads) and I got one from there for £40 and its in perfect condition. ;)
No room for another one without reorganising the kitchen/utility and it is only 18 months since we did that :embarassed: :'(
After 12 months of raw feeding and juggling food around the drawers of our fridge freezer each week, we have finally agreed to sacrifice Molo's crate (4 foot long!) in favour of a chest freezer :o
It means I'll be able to buy pet mince from my butcher along with the bones, wings, rabbit and other goodies- maybe even a whole carcass or two :D
It arrives at the weekend...... :D
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Our second freezer is in the garage. It is fully stocked with the dogs' food and then I fill a drawer of the kitchen freezer with a week's supply of meals at a time. :D
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Barf Day 55.
I think Fern is calmer these days, more focussed. She still has bags of energy and enthusiasm but seems more in control, dare I say happier, more relaxed and confident :-\?.
My sister, who hasn't visited us for several months remarked upon it today. It's not that her personality has altered as such but Fern has become bolder, less fearful of the unknown. She used to be quite whingy around strangers or people she didn't meet very often. Today she greeted my sister and her husband with cocker wags and sat on their feet for a pat. Previously she would have screamed, run away and hid ::) .
Fern is seven years old so it's unlikely to be a developmental thing.
Has anyone else noticed similar changes in their dog since converting them to BARF?
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Mine have always been perfect :005:
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Mine have always been perfect :005:
Yeah right! :shades:
I have noticed that Coco seems to have a lot more energy - it is impossible to tire her out. Not sure this is a good thing - she is just constantly raring to go ::) and takes no time to recover when she has had a good walk >:( She has always been totally fearless though so I haven't noticed a change - in fact she is quite a pushy, confident little miss.
On the plus side though, I am sure she is producing far less poo than before - which I assume is because there is less rubbish in her diet and therefore less waste. Less poo for me to pick up - marvellous! :005: And I think she smells better too. :D
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tbh I can hardly remember before I fed raw, twas nearly 6 years ago now.... Lola, and Hattie were raised on raw from puppyhood, and the lurchers have been fed raw since they came to live with me, so apart from Tilly and Saffy I haven't done the changing thing.... certainly Tilly's health is miles better than it was when she was one and two years old contstantly at the vets having anal glands emptied, and also ear infections. Tilly's only been to the vets once in 4 years, and that was for her lip fold operation.
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Alfie's always been too laid back to be scared of anything and he loves all people without exception so there's been no change in that respect and because he's been on barf since he was 5 months the only real difference I've seen in him is that he poos less than he did :005: He's always been very healthy, he's never been to the vet apart from his injections and when he got bitten on the head. He always has bags of energy and I think he smells lovely but then again Tilly is on Autarky as she's not keen on BARF and tbh I don't see any differences in the two of them regarding health, vitality or smell (although she does let rip more often :005:). Her ears, teeth and erm, bottom are all in pristine condition :005:
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Tbh I think you will notice the differences more as they get older. Most people are stunned that Tilly is 8 yrs old, she really doesn't look it - or behave that way. I have friends who feed other diets, and their dogs aren't nearly as fit and healthy as Tils - but maybe thats genes, or lack of exercise I dunno...
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Tbh I think you will notice the differences more as they get older. Most people are stunned that Tilly is 8 yrs old, she really doesn't look it - or behave that way. I have friends who feed other diets, and their dogs aren't nearly as fit and healthy as Tils - but maybe thats genes, or lack of exercise I dunno...
Yeah I think you're right, Alfie's still only 11 months and Tills is only 2. I am trying my best to convert her to BARF... she loves sardines, will pick at the forthglade mince, is totally baffled by chicken wings, licks lamb ribs then walks off, turns her nose up at offal and looks at me like I'm trying to poison her with rabbit ::) :005:
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Bella's been on raw for just over a year now. When she was on kibble we were at the vet's seriously every 2-3 weeks with one thing or another, loads of ear and eye infections, anal gland problems etc. Since the switch she has been to the vet's once for her jabs, once because she ripped out a claw, and that's it. In fact when Zorro went for his jabs a few weeks ago the vet asked after Bella and said he hadn't seen her for a while (she'd become such a regular they all knew her!) and we said she's on a raw diet. He replied, "ah, that'll be why then." ;)
Zorro was partly on raw before he came to us and has been on it fully since he was about 12 weeks old (thanks to Penel's encouragement! ;)) and is doing great, he has a beautiful glossy coat and he's a lovely lean puppy (Bella was a little porker on Hill's) who does back flips when he sees his food bowl come out (poor boy gets soooo confused when he sees me emptying the kiln, walking backwards and forwards with handfuls of empty spaniel bowls! :lol:)
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One of the BARF books I read said that some dogs who had previous behavioural problems saw a great improvement in their behaviour after switching to BARF. So there could well be a link in the change of behaviour in Fern with the switch to BARF.
I've not found any change in that direction yet but my lot haven't been on BARF as long as Fern. I'd like it to have the same effect that its had on Fern on Sapphi. After years of building her confidence with men she didn't know and getting fab results earlier this year, she lost that confidence following her accident. I'm working on it again with her but its very slow progress, so any help that BARF could be I'd be very grateful!
I remember you saying that Fern had runny eyes for a while shortly after switching. Barney has this too but its being going on for a while now, how long did it last with Fern?
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I remember you saying that Fern had runny eyes for a while shortly after switching. Barney has this too but its being going on for a while now, how long did it last with Fern?
At it's worst -about 4 weeks Sam. I still notice it occasionally but it's definitely clearing up now.
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Phew!! Note to self.
Do NOT under any circumstances feed BARFed dog cooked left overs from Christmas dinner, especially sprouts, and parsnips. Fern has had a gurgling stomach all day and has just gassed me out. I'm going to have to evacuate the room before I keel over ph34r .
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Weird cos mine have had loads of cooked turkey, sprouts and parsnips - and no wind, no upset tummies they are all totally fine.... :D
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Weird cos mine have had loads of cooked turkey, sprouts and parsnips - and no wind, no upset tummies they are all totally fine.... :D
Must be my cooking..... ph34r :embarassed:
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mine have missed out!
i didnt think you should give them anything cooked once on raw!!!
o well...........
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It's OK. I've just realized that it probably wasn't the cooked sprouts/parsnips but more likely to be due to the dozen or so mussels I fed her ::). I'd forgotten about them.
No runny poo problems though -just enormously powerful smelly f**ts :o .
Worse, - she followed me up to bed last night and lay by the side of the bed releasing evil ones all night. I'm surprised I woke up this morning.
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she followed me up to bed last night and lay by the side of the bed releasing evil ones all night. I'm surprised I woke up this morning.
:rofl1: :rofl1: :rofl1:
Makes a change from it being the OH I suppose. :005:
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We had similar issues with my two... my Mum did nothing but feed them cooked turkey, sausages, bacon etc. over Christmas and as a result the house was the scene of some particularly violent biological warfare in the evenings ph34r Tilly in particular was absolutely rank :o
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BARF about 3 months on
BARF Days 3-6 .
I shall be looking at feeding 350-400g/day until Fern puts on a little weight. If she gets too fat I shall reduce it. Veggies are extra.
Well that worked! I took her to the vets to weigh her today (sorry Penel I held back as long as I could :005: ) Errrrrrm today she weighs 14.45Kg :o . I have been trying to feed by eye and stopped weighing things some time ago but think my eyesight may be a little defective. I thought I had reduced her intake, but obviously not. I am going to weigh two chicken wings and make up the rest with mince to about 300g daily for a while and see how she is in a month or so. I can still feel her ribs(just) and she is pretty fit and lively but I really don't want a fat spaniel. She is only 14" at the shoulder and has just a wee hint of the 'barrel look' about her in certain light. I think I know what started it. The only AMP rabbit mince is available as 400g blocks which you can't divide easily, so she has been having the lot at one sitting. I had to buy 400g tripe blocks too as they had run out of freeflow. I haven't been reducing the size of subsequent meals ph34r
She continues to thrive on BARF. I have stuck to frozen AMP freeflow mince (chicken, tripe, lamb and beef) -all have a bit of ground up bone in them. She also has AMP heart chunks every week or so. The liver gave her the runs last time so have not tried her on that again. I have cut out the turkey necks as the size of the pieces are just small enough for me to be concerned that she will try to swallow them whole without crunching them (It would probably only give her the runs but I just dont feel right about them somehow :-\ ). The AMP beef chunks have to be cut up smaller for her as she wont chew them as they are ::) . Occasionally she has tinned sardines and egg. Meals are always served with a small dollop of whizzed mixed veg (root and leaf) with garlic and she has two small chicken wings(bought from supermarket and frozen)afterwards -which are now demolished within a couple of minutes. Her coat is lovely and soft, her eyes are bright and rarely runny now, she smells gorgeous and her teeth are pearly white. The bit of tartar that remained on her canines is almost gone. More of the roaning/ticking is showing through these days it seems. Whether this is as a result of BARF or her winter coat changing I am not sure. I can't say that I have noticed in other years though. Others have commented on it. Her concentration has definately improved since BARF. Again that may not be due to BARF but could be due to her age. There is no way of proving it one way or the other, unless I see what happens if I return to her old diet. I'm not going to though. She loves it! :D
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I think I know what started it. The only AMP rabbit mince is available as 400g blocks which you can't divide easily, so she has been having the lot at one sitting. I had to buy 400g tripe blocks too as they had run out of freeflow. I haven't been reducing the size of subsequent meals ph34r
400g in one sitting :o blimey that's more than Barley and he's 25 kgs :lol: no wonder she's put on a bit of weight :lol:
still, at least you know now eh :005: glad to hear she's still happy with her food !!!
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It didn't look that much and she always ate it all without any hesitation Penel :005: ph34r
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It didn't look that much and she always ate it all without any hesitation Penel :005: ph34r
blimey I bet she did :005:
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It didn't look that much and she always ate it all without any hesitation Penel :005: ph34r
blimey I bet she did :005:
:005: - one of those blocks feeds Molo for two days - he wants to come and live with Fern :005:
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It didn't look that much and she always ate it all without any hesitation Penel :005: ph34r
blimey I bet she did :005:
:005: - one of those blocks feeds Molo for two days - he wants to come and live with Fern :005:
:lol: Just pop him in the post Rachel
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It didn't look that much and she always ate it all without any hesitation Penel :005: ph34r
blimey I bet she did :005:
:005: - one of those blocks feeds Molo for two days - he wants to come and live with Fern :005:
:lol: Just pop him in the post Rachel
He's a bit too plump to go in the post box atm - he's dieting too :shades:
(Is bone-marrow fattening ?)
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Does anyone think the extra weight shows? (Sorry about the cr***y quality of photos)
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f305/happydog123/301206015.jpg)(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f305/happydog123/301206016.jpg)(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f305/happydog123/IMAG0002A.jpg)(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f305/happydog123/IMAG0001A.jpg)
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Not at all ;)
That's what Molo looks like too - I know he is a little too well covered, but its not noticeable unless you cuddle him ;)
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I think Fern looks fab Happydog. Tilly is actually still a bit chunkier looking than her :embarassed: :embarassed:
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I think she looks great- haven't weighed Hattie for about 18 months so have no idea at all what she weighs!!!
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Nope, she looks fab :luv:
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doesn't look fat at all to me. beautiful
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I know working cockers are more slender but she doesn't look at all fat or barrel-like - there's a definite waist visible. She looks lovely.
With the free-flow mince products from AMP, what is the quality/provenance of the contents? I'm still feeding Paddy using Tesco frozen lamb mince plus lamb organs and breast of lamb from the butcher. It would be great to find a cheaper way of doing it, but only if there's no meaningful compromise on quality. He's fully stabilised from his colitis now, thanks to raw feeding and treatment from the homeopathic vet.
I've just tried free-flow tripe for the first time, as I worry that I don't give Pads enough bone. Holy Moly, jam roly poly. It smells bl**dy grim when it's frozen, let alone thawed. Eeyeuchhhh!
Denise
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:D Thanks for the compliments about my gorgeous Fern everyone :luv:
I have asked AMP about the origins of their mince. They are supplied only by Defra approved sites. I understand that to be human grade processing plants. The chicken carcasses etc are frozen before transportation to A.M.P. and are minced/cut/packaged on site in a frozen state. If any batch is defrosted at any stage it is rejected. The mince contains approx 4% is bone and the rest is pure meat, there are no additives, colours, flavourings or fillers. I like the idea of bone content as like you I think sometimes Fern may not be having enough in other ways. I expect the fat content will be higher than human grade mince, but can't say I have found it obviously so. Fats are a dogs source of energy just as carbohydrates are to humans, so they can tolerate it better than we can, (although a surfeit could give them the runs ph34r ). As there is no way I could afford organic, which would be my ideal, this is my compromise. The quality seems good enough to me.
I note the lamb mince contains chicken too. I asked them and they said the ratio is 60% lamb 40% chicken. Can Paddy tolerate chicken?
Here is a link to their Nutritional page for Prize choice freeflow. http://www.prizechoice.co.uk/natural-pet-feeding-guide/nutritional-information.php
If you have a look round their site there is quite a lot of info about their company and their hygiene standards. There is a price list there too if you go to the ordering for home delivery page.
You're right about the tripe mince phewwwww :huh: !!! Fern loves it though.
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Damn: I was getting all "save some money excited" and then got to the 60/40 bit. Pads doesn't "do" chicken, has to be just lamb mince. Fiddlesticks....I'll take a look at the site anyway, as there may be alternatives to be found.
Thanks.
Denise
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They are supplied only by Defra approved sites. I understand that to be human grade processing plants.
The meat used in DEFRA Approved Pet Food processing plants has to be category 3 (from carcasses fit for human consumption), but these Processing Plants are not the same as the ones where meat for human consumption is actually processed; and so the way in which the meat is handled, and processed, is totally different ;)
(added purely for information, I'm not contradicting anyone's choices ;))
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YES!! ... please?
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They are supplied only by Defra approved sites. I understand that to be human grade processing plants.
The meat used in DEFRA Approved Pet Food processing plants has to be category 3 (from carcasses fit for human consumption), but these Processing Plants are not the same as the ones where meat for human consumption is actually processed; and so the way in which the meat is handled, and processed, is totally different ;)
(added purely for information, I'm not contradicting anyone's choices ;))
How does it differ Rachel? This is what they say on their site:
Prize choice is manufactured to very high standards of processing and hygiene with manufacturing facilities that in line with those used to produce minced meats for human consumption.
Raw meat diets for dogs either fed raw or used as part of a natural BARF feeding regime have excelled with dog breeders and owners throughout the UK.
Established in 1981 as Anglian Meat Products Ltd, Anglian Meat Products Ltd has been improving its range of quality petfoods for over 24 years.
Manufacturing Facilities are registered by DEFRA registered plant No. 28/726/9200PF.
The manufacturing plant in Norfolk has been specifically built in line with all current EU legislation for the manufacturing and distribution of real meat products.
With facilities linked to human food production standards we lead the market by continued quality handling methods, the use of good HACCP controls, micro-biological testing, raw material traceability and good in house practices. Separate temperature controlled departments for raw material, production, packing, despatch and finished goods to maintain the highest standards.
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I've just tried free-flow tripe for the first time, as I worry that I don't give Pads enough bone. Holy Moly, jam roly poly. It smells bl**dy grim when it's frozen, let alone thawed. Eeyeuchhhh!
Denise
You should try the fresh stuff! :o :o
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Damn: I was getting all "save some money excited" and then got to the 60/40 bit. Pads doesn't "do" chicken, has to be just lamb mince. Fiddlesticks....I'll take a look at the site anyway, as there may be alternatives to be found.
Thanks.
Denise
Albion do just lamb mince Denise.
Very very pleased to hear Paddy is doing so well :shades: :D
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I've just tried free-flow tripe for the first time, as I worry that I don't give Pads enough bone. Holy Moly, jam roly poly. It smells bl**dy grim when it's frozen, let alone thawed. Eeyeuchhhh!
Denise
You should try the fresh stuff! :o :o
I bought Billy some frozen tripe, YUK, it stinks >:D He's only had it once, it's still in the freezer, I daren't get anymore out ph34r
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How does it differ Rachel? This is what they say on their site:
Not ignoring you - honest!
I think the fact that they use terms such as "...in line with...." and ".....distribution of real meat products....." rather than less ambiguous statements such as "....the same as......" is a clear indication that they do not process this meat in the same way as if it was for human consumption.......that's not necessarily a bad thing, but the wording has obviously been very carefully selected to imply that they are the same ;)
I've written similar things myself in the past, designed to suggest to the reader what they want to hear :-\
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re tripe - for heaven's sakes you lot - mine eat it every day for breakfast - defrost it in a tupperware type container, then you don't smell it, ad honestly you get used to it - I don't even notice it anymore... ::)
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:lol: It's never around for very long once Fern's bowl hits the floor anyway.
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re tripe - for heaven's sakes you lot - mine eat it every day for breakfast - defrost it in a tupperware type container, then you don't smell it, ad honestly you get used to it - I don't even notice it anymore... ::)
Agree with this. :D I never thought I would be able to deal with tripe but once defrosted I keep it in an airtight box in the fridge. Coco has her food outside as there are invariably bits she drags around the floor - it is never there for very long anyway! ;)
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I bag it up while it's frozed (then give Buddy the opened plastic bag to lick out - he loves that!), then defrost it in the bag and tip it into the bowl, feed immediately and stand back!
He has stonky breath for a while, so no kisses, but I can't say the smell upsets any of us (ah, I DO feed it out in the utility room though!)
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He has stonky breath for a while, so no kisses, but I can't say the smell upsets any of us (ah, I DO feed it out in the utility room though!)
Personally I find cocker breath no worse after eating tripe than I do after feeding her sardines ph34r
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Tripe doesn't smell that bad to me - fresh rabbit on the other hand......... :-\
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He has stonky breath for a while, so no kisses, but I can't say the smell upsets any of us (ah, I DO feed it out in the utility room though!)
Personally I find cocker breath no worse after eating tripe than I do after feeding her sardines ph34r
Oh you are sooooo right. Sunday evening kisses are definitely out in this house! Makes it worse that he goes into a frenzy wiping his mouth on the rug after his pilchard supper! >:(
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Tripe doesn't smell that bad to me - fresh rabbit on the other hand......... :-\
Oh god yeah, they're a real 'hold your breath' job ph34r and now that OH is away I have to cleaver them myself :o :P
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Tripe is the only thing I really can't stand the smell of, even the smell of high meat is better than that.
When they do get it they are all fed outside. :lol:
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hello,how much would you feed a 6month old who is 10.2kg as we are going to change to raw in the next couple of weeks, when i get a new chest freezer for the garage so i can stock up as i also have a ddb to feed aswell.
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Quantities are not an exact science as each dog has different nutritional requirements, according to age, build, metabolism and lifestyle etc (much like humans). I wasn't feeding Fern BARF when she was a growing pup so the amounts suggested may not apply. The UK Barf Club http://ukbarfclub.co.uk/sitemap/ Suggest for every 10kg weight, a dog should eat about 100-150g meat and twice this volume in fruit and veg( :o).
I found another guide that suggests 20% of bodyweight per week. The BARF books I have suggest far less fruit/ veg than the barfclub. That much fruit/veg would defo give her the runs, but she is a very active dog, and that reduces her chances of getting constipated (raw veggies tend to help keep things 'loose' - providing roughage as well as providing trace elements, vitamins and minerals). She has a small dollop (about a heaped dessert spoonful)of whizzed veg most days, but if I run out I don't panic.
Your pup is still growing so may need a little more (don't just believe him if he 'tells' you he is still hungry though, most cockers will eat until they burst! :shades: ) Fern is very active so I am feeding her at the top end of the scale. I am reducing it though as she is starting to lose her waist and has gained over 2 Kilos :005: .
So, to reiterate, UK Barf club say you should feed approx 102g-154g/day raw meat.
Barf books I have read say your 10.2 Kg dog should have approx. 290g/day. (I include the total weight of the chicken wings I feed in this and add veggies)
This is only a guideline to start. If your dog is gaining weight, reduce quantities, if they are losing weight, then increase.
Confused? I was and then I stopped worrying about it, ;).
Whats a ddb :huh:
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Whats a ddb :huh:
I *think* it's a Dogue de Bordeaux :luv:
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Whats a ddb :huh:
I *think* it's a Dogue de Bordeaux :luv:
yes it is and thanks for the advice
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BARF: 5 months on.
I have one fit and healthy dog :D and long may it last. The only visit to the vets has been due to an encounter with barbed wire a few weeks ago but she healed well with no problems :blink:. Fern will be 8 years old in June this year. Her eyes are no longer gunky and she is full of energy when out, but a contented laid back cocker at home, although she is not averse to a daily mad moment of charging through the house and garden with toys trying to instigate chase games when the mood takes her ::) :005: .
I think she has stopped putting on weight since I reduced quantities slightly in January ( See Jan.23rd page 13 of this thread). I shall pop her down to the vets to weigh her later (this is just for all of you interested in this thread and not because I am paranoid :P ) Her food is easy to bag up now I have mastered the art of setting up a production line once a month or so.
I thought it would work out more expensive to feed her this way but when I actually worked it out today I was suprised to find it is cheaper than feeding her 'premium' (e.g. Pedigree Chum, Winalot etc) tinned dog food and mixer. It costs 50p/day to feed Fern BARF and that includes two chicken wings a day, veggies and home made treats.
The bonuses of course are seeing Fern so happy, fit and healthy without having to feed her '4% meat with animal derivatives (I've discovered what some of them are :o) :huh: , cereals :huh: and various sugars :huh:' and knowing that I am not inadvertantly supporting any doubtful practices the commercial pet food companies may be involved in. The smaller firmer poos are a definate plus too ;).
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Glad to hear it's going so well - I think it's a fantastic diet. Bella has now been on it for coming up to 18 months, she just went for her boosters (our vet rotates them so she gets one for some stuff every 3 years and then one for Parvo each year as there is alot of it around near us). That was her first visit to the vet in a whole year, which for me speaks volumes as prior to the BARF diet she was at the vet's every couple of weeks with numerous ear and eye infections.
Here are the vet's comments:
"wow, I can see right to the bottom of her ear canals, that's great for a cocker"
"lovely clean teeth"
"coat in great condition"
He does want me to shift about 3-400g off her weight as it's crept up very slightly so she's now on smaller portions (150g per day instead of 180g - she weighs 10kg).
Zorro my 7 month old has been on this diet since he was 12 weeks and his only visit to the vet was when we thought he might have an ear infection, but it turned out he just had some excess wax, so he's had nowt wrong with him whatsoever. :D
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I am so pleased you guys are happy with the diet your dogs are on. You know how I truly believe a good diet gives them so much of a headstart - look how quickly Tilly has recovered from that adder bite.
Hattie's nearly 3. She's only been to the vet once - to be spayed. :D ;) :D
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I have to say I think COL has been fab - I'd never have taken the plunge without all the help from people on here (esp Penel!).
Forgot to add when I took Bella to the vet's he called her "Bellissima Pearson" :lol: :luv: :luv:
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OK that's it I've read up to page two so far ;) but want to ask a question, where does everyone get the chicken wings from? :huh: I'm having problems getting them.
Now I've got a new freezer I want to put both dogs on BARF fully, they've been having the odd bit as treats, everytime I find chicken wings I stock up but they seem to have stopped doing them the last few months :huh:
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I get chicken wings in Tesco or Asda - they always seem to have them. You could also ask your local butcher. In the supermarket they are about £1.25 for 10 or 12. I just freeze them on a tray then put into a bag so I can take out one or two at a time. ;)
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Asda for me too. I do the same as Joules. Sometimes AMP have 2Kg bags of them loose frozen but I haven't seen them lately. Butchers don't stock them round here.
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i'm a bit of a newbie to the whole BARF idea so could someone just clarrify a couple of points. I'm hopefully getting a pup in early June time and would liek to inrtoduce raw feeding, probably as a treat based idea to begin wit working up to a full BARF diet. My questions are:
Would an 8/9 week old pup be ok with things like chcken wings, bones etc. the contept of a pup eating bones just baffles me.
Do you have to defrost the meat totally before use. i know a lot of its frozen so don't you spend half your time defrosting meat??
Can you give a pup a raw egg, shell and all?
Can anyone recommend some good books that will help me get my head round these ideas?
Sorry if they are very basic questions but this concept is all new to me.
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tango1986 - I copied this off the first page for you Look at this thread too http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=26952.0
Getting closer- reading matter
I put a post on COL for BARF book recommendations and thanks to AnnieM received two of them via her (thanks AnnieM ). They are Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats by Kymythy Schultze (American -qualified animal nutritionist and Animal Health Instructor) & Work Wonders- Feed your dog raw meaty bones by Tom Lonsdale (Australian -vet). I thought it would take me a while to get round to reading them as I have a very busy schedule. Neither was I sure that reading just two books on the subject would give me the range of information I was after. As a biologist I could see the sense in BARF but I was not confident that I could provide a suitably balanced BARF diet. I didn't want to deny Fern adequate nutrition because I hadn't sufficiently researched it. I am aware that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
I was wrong on all counts. Once started I couldn't put the books down and read them both in two days. In spite of their differing styles they were both easy to read and surprisingly informative. For example -I hadn't realised that many of the added vitamins, minerals and other supplements in cooked tinned dog food may not actually be in a form that an animal can use. I didn't realise that feeding raw salmon was not recommended because of the parasite flukes that act as host for rickettsia. They also settled my mind on the question of exposing my dog to salmonella and other bacteria. The only slightly disconcerting thing was reading about feeding kangaroo tails not sure about that here in England
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I get chicken wings in Tesco or Asda - they always seem to have them. You could also ask your local butcher. In the supermarket they are about £1.25 for 10 or 12. I just freeze them on a tray then put into a bag so I can take out one or two at a time. ;)
Thanks
Off to Tesco then as my local Asda haven't done them for a while ::) Must find a butcher that that does them too
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Thanks for that, obviously need to pay more attention when reading :005:
Its a whole new concept to me as said so just don't wanting ot end up with and undernorished puppy who resembles a watering can where all the bones have punctured intestines etc or even worse giving him food posioning. I have so far manged to not kill my OH with my cooking but i am far from the best chef in the world so don't really want to harm the dog with my total lack of cooking or food preparation skills. :D
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Thanks for that, obviously need to pay more attention when reading :005:
Its a whole new concept to me as said so just don't wanting ot end up with and undernorished puppy who resembles a watering can where all the bones have punctured intestines etc or even worse giving him food posioning. I have so far manged to not kill my OH with my cooking but i am far from the best chef in the world so don't really want to harm the dog with my total lack of cooking or food preparation skills. :D
:lol: I think that was more or less my reaction when I started.
It's amazing how reticent we are as a nation to feed our dogs what is essentially the most natural food for dogs in the world.
As an oldie ph34r I can just about remember the world before tinned dog food became the norm in England and people were soon brainwashed in to thinking it was the best/only way to save your dog from being malnourished. Dried food hadn't even been thought of then.
Re feeding your pup bones. Never ever ever feed cooked bones only raw A bit of supervision for the first few weeks might be wise in case you hace a greedy 'un who needs to learn not to bolt food whole (as they only bring it up again ::) :P ) but there is no reason for you not to put pup straight on to BARF. Plenty of people here on COL have done it and there are breeders who do it too. I am sure a bit of advise re pups will arrive here soon from others who have fed BARF more or less from birth.
Defrosting takes a bit of getting used to but it soon becomes second nature. It is no hassle taking a polythene bag out of the freezer in the morning for her evening meal. If it's summer I pop it in the fridge rather than leave it out on the worktop all day. All her food (mince and veg) is bagged up for each day by me a months worth at a time. If I have run out of those , the large freeflow mince bags I buy make it really simple. I just pour out a meals worth into a bowl and put the bowl in the sink with a bit of hot water for 30 mins, give it a quick stir and feed it straight away. Missing the veg for a day won't harm her. Chicken wings - I do the same thing as I bag them up in pairs.
Apart from COL threads, these sites might help answer some of your questions:
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#daily
http://ukbarfclub.co.uk/
Fern eats raw egg shell and all ;). I do sometimes have to crush the shell up with my fingers and hide it in her sardines. It's a great source of calcium.
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OK that's it I've read up to page two so far ;) but want to ask a question, where does everyone get the chicken wings from? :huh: I'm having problems getting them.
Now I've got a new freezer I want to put both dogs on BARF fully, they've been having the odd bit as treats, everytime I find chicken wings I stock up but they seem to have stopped doing them the last few months :huh:
My local butcher doesn't keep them in stock over the winter, as he says they are a summer (BBQ) food - but he was happy to order some in for me :D
I actually decided to buy awhole 15kg case and then bagged them up to put in the freezer; there were 180 wings in the box (yes, I counted them ;))
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Thanks Rachel
I've just been talking to a friend and she said there is a great family butcher in a town not too far away so am off to see if they sell them or if they will get them in for me ;) (tomorrow I will go and investigate)
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Having found myself a really super butcher for our meat I decided to try the dogs with some raw bones which after their initial suspicion they absolutely loved (it took Domino a long time to get through one at first!)
After I'd convinced myself they weren't going to collapse & die having eaten their bones I then tried them with chicken wings - I must admit my heart was in my mouth but they ate them with relish & lived to tell the tale so I became more confident & proceeded to give them some raw hearts ,liver,kidneys & sardines (not in the same meal I hasten to add!!!)
I have also continued to give some NatureDiet as well for some meals but must say that the dogs really enjoy their food even Domino who has never been a very enthusiastic eater. (Spike has a cast-iron digestion so I wasn't quite so worried about him!! ;))
Having always fed 'processed' food to all our dogs for years it does take a bit of getting used to but proves you can teach an old dog new tricks!! - pardon the pun!! :lol:
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Another page I have found useful is
http://www.bregorreyglens.co.uk/nutrition.html
I wanted a working cocker to go beating with. My daughter said a show type because she wants to show. I would want a docked tail, she would need it to be undocked if born early summer. Long and the short of it :lol: is we sat and went through the list of breeds and reduced it and reduced it to a Shetland Sheepdog. Collect one on 19th April and I would like to start introducing it to a BARF diet. Thanks to everyone who has posted the last 16 pages - I have read it all !
Will remain a fan of the cockers, especially workers, and will post pics of our addition on the "other breeds" section when we have some.
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BARF: 5 months on.
I think she has stopped putting on weight since I reduced quantities slightly in January ( See Jan.23rd page 13 of this thread). I shall pop her down to the vets to weigh her later (this is just for all of you interested in this thread and not because I am paranoid :P )
Finally got round to weighing her today after her run and swim. A very wet and muddy Fern now weighs 14.05Kg (so if you take off .05 Kg for the mud and water she's actually down to 14Kg ;) )The vets floor and scales were covered in muddy paw prints by the time we left :005: ph34r.
So by reducing her food very slightly she has lost nearly half a kilogram since January. I'm not going to weigh her again. I am learning to trust my eye and like Penel will just give her a bit less if she starts to lose her waist, or a bit more if she starts to look skinny again.
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Charlies just had his first chicken wing :D :D
He's got impacted anal glands so I finally managed to convince Mum it would be a good idea to feed them. He spent about 45 mins stealthily moving through the undergrowth and freezing at every little sound, then he smeared it across the glass door as Mum and Dad were eating their tea :005:, and finally he began to chomp! It took him about 20 mins to eat, and he kept pausing to look at the chickens in their pen, I'm sure he was thinking of seconds :lol:.
Thanks for the inspiration Happydog, but now I'm waiting for him to keel over ph34r
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i'm a bit of a newbie to the whole BARF idea so could someone just clarrify a couple of points. I'm hopefully getting a pup in early June time and would liek to inrtoduce raw feeding, probably as a treat based idea to begin wit working up to a full BARF diet. My questions are:
Would an 8/9 week old pup be ok with things like chcken wings, bones etc. the contept of a pup eating bones just baffles me.
Do you have to defrost the meat totally before use. i know a lot of its frozen so don't you spend half your time defrosting meat??
Can you give a pup a raw egg, shell and all?
Can anyone recommend some good books that will help me get my head round these ideas?
Sorry if they are very basic questions but this concept is all new to me.
As well as those books, try joining the BritBarf Group on Yahoo - run by Derek Turnbull who is hugely knowledgeable and helpful. Those books (plus Dr Ian Billinghurst's books on BARF) are really good, easy to read and you end up just going back to one or two bits over and over again - and there are chapters on puppies - balance,amounts etc. I have to admit that I don't watch Paddy eating bones but I'm always in the same room as him while he's eating one. Last night, after nearly 9 months on BARF, he tried to gulp too much down - first time ever - and had to cough it back up. Glad I was there, just in case!!!
Denise
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The first day of feeding raw bones is always the scariest one ! the next day they eat it a lot lot quicker !
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now I'm waiting for him to keel over ph34r
The first day of feeding raw bones is always the scariest one ! the next day they eat it a lot lot quicker !
I was terrified the first few days and watched her like a hawk. I had the vets emergency number to hand before I even opened the fridge ::). Never needed to use it yet. I still stick around whilst she's eating them just in case, but that's only for about 30 seconds per wing these days :lol:
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This has been so good to read and very inspirational. We are going to gradually start introducing this to our dogs. Today they had their first chicken wing. Jas our lab cross wolfed it down in about 30 seconds. Bracken (cocker) took about 20 minutes, she took it to the other side of the garden and slowly munched away. It was so funny to watch as she kept picking it up and shaking it, I guess hoping it would disintegrate to bitsized pieces. :luv: :luv:
There is a farm shop near us that sells blocks of animal meat, I know they have beef and fish varieties so will see what the other ingrediants are, hopefully 100 ish% meat.
We have got them before, but being new to this cooked them....... though not as bad as the time I cooked tripe and stunk the whole house out... :005: :005: something never to be repeated.
I was worried before about raw meat but am now feeling confident, god I love this site!
Thanks for all the information that is shared..
Em
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Lola still shakes her food to kill it before she eats it :005: and she's the most gentle of all my dogs !
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It's been hot here today. I took Ferns chicken wings out of the freezer early enough to defrost naturally, or so I thought. I often have to resort to bunging the plastic bag in hot water to defrost them quickly at the last minute ::) .
Anyway they were still slightly frozen tonight but she had them anyway and really seemed to enjoy her chicken ice lollies :005: .
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Sorry to bring it all back to poo again! BARF does this to you.
This is just something I have noticed over the past few months.
Fern is an active cocker and has little or no trouble with her poos since going on to BARF. They are fewer, smaller and firmer than they were prior to BARF and multicoloured - according to what I have given her the day before. Mostly they dry out white and crumble away to nothing in a day or two unless I have overdosed her on the veggies and fruit.
She has a similar amount and type of bone content most days. However, if I find I am unable to walk her on the odd day, she can have a bit of trouble going the next day and performs amidst the odd squeak (she is a bit of a squeaker, she squeaks when she falls over when running flat out but carries on straight afterwards so I don't pay a lot of attention to it now).
Now she is either holding on until her walk- which she doesn't get and so everything becomes more compacted, or the excercise itself stimulates her into performing.
It made me wonder about those who feed BARF to less active dogs, whether it be from temporary illness/incapacity or age. Do you have any problems and do you adjust meat/bone/veg ratios to compensate, if so how? Is BARF perhaps best for active dogs only :-\ ?
Just wondering :D .
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I know with my boys exercise stimulates them into performing. And if we go on a really exciting walk, they can go up to 5 times. :o
Is it possible on the days you can't walk Fern, for you to just go for a quick 5 minute walk up the street to get her to perform so she's not bunged up the next day? :-\
Casper went through a phase where he was unsettled in the evening and would whine a lot. So we took him up and down the road and he could go 3 times in 10 minutes.
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Is it possible on the days you can't walk Fern, for you to just go for a quick 5 minute walk up the street to get her to perform so she's not bunged up the next day? :-\
:-\ I can't remember if she has ever performed on a lead, I don't think she has, ever. She is so rarely on a lead. Our walks are offlead farmland ones where she is non-stop 90mph most of the time :005: , so a 5 minute onlead walk probably wouldn't do the trick.
We have a fairly long garden and she will use it if she has to, but she does tend to hang on a bit longer ph34r.
I just have to remember to play a lot of retrieve or chase games if I dont manage to walk her and get her charging around. That's easier said than done though, 'cos if I don't have time to walk her then I don't have time for a half hour game ::) . It doesn't happen that often , but I thought it worth a mention though in case other BARF feeders find a similar problem.
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I've just sat here and read all 17 pages, it's fascinating stuff! Thanks!
Just a few questions if you don't mind?
How does it compare cost wise to feeding kibble? We would probably feed Burns as our choice of kibble. This is one of my OH's concerns as he's the one who brings in the money! :005:
Would we start introducing BARF as soon as Griffin comes home (gradually of course ;)) or would we wait until he's older and has a stronger immune system and jaws?
Now, I've got a feeling that I might be laughed at due to some of the comments that have been written earlier about uninformed people suggesting BARF could turn them wild. Would the smell and taste of the rabbit I might feed be the same as the smell of the rabbits I have as pets? I'm planning on working hard with the puppy and rabbits so that they are happy around each other, but I'm having visions of the rabbits smelling of hoping versions of Griffins dinner! In all honesty, I'm not sure I could feed rabbit but I'd still be interested to know.
Thank you! ;)
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Would the smell and taste of the rabbit I might feed be the same as the smell of the rabbits I have as pets? I'm planning on working hard with the puppy and rabbits so that they are happy around each other, but I'm having visions of the rabbits smelling of hoping versions of Griffins dinner! In all honesty, I'm not sure I could feed rabbit but I'd still be interested to know.
I think there are members who feed their working gundogs rabbit "in their jackets" and they still retrieve game with no problems; I think most dogs can distinguish between dinner and pets.....as long as you supervise, of course :D
Cost varies from place to place - I worked out that a pre-packed raw diet (from Prize Choice, for instance) works out about the same as a good quality kibble like Burns - but if you can befriend a good butcher, then you may find it significantly cheaper ;) I pay £6 for three rabbits which is approx 18 meals worth for Molo, but I pay nothing for them if I can get them freshly shot :D I paid £2 this morning for approx 20 meaty lamb bones :D
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How does it compare cost wise to feeding kibble? We would probably feed Burns as our choice of kibble. This is one of my OH's concerns as he's the one who brings in the money! :005:
You know from reading the thread that Fern mainly gets Prize Choice AMP lamb/chicken/beef/rabbit/tripe mince, heart/liver/beef chunks (not just for the convenience, but because most types contain ground bone), home whizzed veggies and 2 chicken wings a day(from the supermarket). This works out at about 50p/day. I've no idea what kibble costs as I've never fed it.
Would we start introducing BARF as soon as Griffin comes home (gradually of course ;)) or would we wait until he's older and has a stronger immune system and jaws?
I've never fed a pup BARF so I'm probably not the best person to answer, but I know there are breeders who wean pups straight on to BARF so I see no reason why you should wait. It's good to supervise the bones for a while though. Start with something 'easy' like small chicken wings and bash them first, with a rolling pin to soften the bones until they get used to it. When they are teething you might find they go off it for a while(the bones not the raw meat), but it wont harm for a while if they just have mince.
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How does it compare cost wise to feeding kibble? We would probably feed Burns as our choice of kibble. This is one of my OH's concerns as he's the one who brings in the money! :005:
You know from reading the thread that Fern mainly gets Prize Choice AMP lamb/chicken/beef/rabbit/tripe mince, heart/liver/beef chunks (not just for the convenience, but because most types contain ground bone), home whizzed veggies and 2 chicken wings a day(from the supermarket). This works out at about 50p/day. I've no idea what kibble costs as I've never fed it.
Well, we've worked out that Burns would work out about 90p a day so that will work in BARFS favour when it comes to talking to OH :D
The other thing I was wondering, what do you do when you have to get someone else in for the dog, or they are in kennels? I take it that kennels wouldn't do this? And I'm not convinced my sister would be willing to do all this. Can you prepare in advance and just leave it to be given?
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The other thing I was wondering, what do you do when you have to get someone else in for the dog, or they are in kennels? I take it that kennels wouldn't do this? And I'm not convinced my sister would be willing to do all this. Can you prepare in advance and just leave it to be given?
To begin with, when I was weighing everything, I used to prepare single days meals (I only feed once a day)-mince and veggies, and put them in small plastic bags in the freezer. The chicken wings I now take out of the multi packs, lay them on a baking tray and fast freeze them before putting them in a carrier bag in the freezer, otherwise you end up with 14 wings all frozen together ::) ! It's not much trouble to take a bag and a couple of wings out in the morning ready for the evenings meal. You could even use rigid plastic containers to do this. Warning though, it does take up a lot of freezer space. We share our upright freezer but some people here have bought a second one just for their dogs :005: .
If you also occasionally feed tinned sardines/raw egg/veggies, then for a couple of days this would be fine if you have a squeamish sister. With kennels I think it would depend on the kennel. If they have freezer space they might be willing, otherwise you could always relent for a few days and ask them to feed tinned-Butchers/kibble or something like that. Not ideal, but a few days wont do too much harm.
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If you also occasionally feed tinned sardines/raw egg/veggies, then for a couple of days this would be fine if you have a squeamish sister. With kennels I think it would depend on the kennel. If they have freezer space they might be willing, otherwise you could always relent for a few days and ask them to feed tinned-Butchers/kibble or something like that. Not ideal, but a few days wont do too much harm.
I wouldn't ask a kennels to feed raw - especially bon'y meals, as I can't expect them to give him the same level of supervision as I do while he is eating ;)
I have always made sure that Molo will still eat kibble, so that if I have to leave him in kennels, then he won't starve :005: At the moment I am having sourcing problems for raw food, so I am looking to see if I can find an Autarky stockist locally; in the past I have used Burns, too :D
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I think ClaireP4 fed Zorro on BARF just about from the start so she would be able to help.
Re: what to feed when you go away and leave dog with someone else - I haven't yet done it but I would just go back to feeding a mix one of the good kibbles (JWB, Arden Grange, Burns etc) with Naturediet which is a wet food. I prefer this to a totally dry diet but I am sure the kibble on its own would be fine for a while. Otherwise, as Happydog says you could just freeze meal sized portions of mince with the veg mixed in so all she would have to do is defrost it and put it in the bowl. If your sis is squeamish I would steer clear of offal and tripe for that period! ;)
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OK, you can add me and OH to the list this thread hais converted. I'll say it very tentatively, whilst wringing my hands and looking at the floor, "We are going to feed Griffin BARF :o" There, I've said it! So I've got to do it now.
In all honestly, I don't think our pup is going to have to go to kennels or be looked after by anyone other than us on many occasions. My sister is coming down fo the weekend in Septamber so we can go to a wedding but we'll leave mid morning and will be back in the evening so hopefully we can feed him. We don't have any holidays planned or anything like that, its just one of the questions I had burning.
I do still have lots of questions. Do you think you can put up with me? I have to admit, if I didn't have COL I wouldn't be embarking on BARF at all. It's only knowing you guys are here that gives me the confidence.
Anyway, questions.
CAn anyone point me towards something that explains in laymans terms about the shorter digestive tract in dogs? I keep reading that short phrase in relation to th risk of poisoning but it never goes into it deep enough for me to be fully happy.
Claire, Zorro's Mum, please please please can I have some advice on changing a puppy over? I know you're busy making Griffins bowl though :005: so I can be patient, but would be really good to hear from the voice of experience. I can find a lot about changing adult dogs over but not puppies. I'm also puzzled about how much to give him at what age. Any help gratefully accepted.
Am I right that, in simple terms, a meal would involve three stages? The mince, the veg followed by a RMB such as chicken back? Hang on, where does the offal fit in? Does that get given with the mince? Do you HAVE to give mince or can you give them enough meat by finding the raw meaty bones? Mmmmm, ::) I think I'm still rather confused.
Seeing as Griffin will be our first pup, am I being too ambitious with the BARF idea? SHould I stick with something siimpler?
I've seen one website, yes just one out of all the sites saying how wonderful it is, saying BARF is a bad thing. One of the issues that I can't find the answer to is due to the short intenstinal tract. SHe claims that they can get poisoned by all the bacteria in the meat, but then goes on to say that the short intestinal tract means they don't absorb all of the bacteria (contadicts hersel so not sure how seriously to take her) so the droppings from BARF dogs are higher in bacteria that's harful to humans. The area we're in has lots of play parks and schools around, and even though I'll be picking up his poop, surely it'll leave a residue. Am I being, as I suspect, overly worried about this point, or is this woman on to something. I've saved the web site if any one wants to check it out.
What do you say to vets and other people who are supposedly in the know but critisise you? I've got a feeling I can cope with other dog owners and people who are just going on instinct, but I'm worried I could be intimadated into sitching by someone like a vet.
Thanks so much for your pactience with all my questions. I've been doing so much reading on the subject but its not the same as talking to people who've done it. ;)
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OK, you can add me and OH to the list this thread hais converted. I'll say it very tentatively, whilst wringing my hands and looking at the floor, "We are going to feed Griffin BARF :o" There, I've said it! So I've got to do it now.
Well done :D
Am I right that, in simple terms, a meal would involve three stages? The mince, the veg followed by a RMB such as chicken back? Hang on, where does the offal fit in? Does that get given with the mince? Do you HAVE to give mince or can you give them enough meat by finding the raw meaty bones? Mmmmm, ::) I think I'm still rather confused.
Variety is the key - think in terms of a balanced diet over the course of a week, not a day.....so bones may not be on the menu every day, offal a few times a week, some fish or an egg one day....... ;)
What do you say to vets and other people who are supposedly in the know but critisise you? I've got a feeling I can cope with other dog owners and people who are just going on instinct, but I'm worried I could be intimadated into sitching by someone like a vet.
Ah, but vets aren't experts on pet nutrition, and so in the same way as your GP will refer you to a dietician when needed, your vet will have a very limited knowledge of the benefits/risk of raw feeding when compared to feeding a complete food - and remember that most (not all) veterinary practices have sales deals with one or more pet food manufacturers, and usually sell complete foods ;)
Good luck......in a few months, you'll be wondering what you were worried about, but it is daunting to begin with ;)
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Pinkcarys I would advise you to read at least one book on the subject of barf before taking the plunge, it pays to do as much research as possible before embarking on something like this. This should explain the diet and the principles behind it for you and answer most of the major questions you have. If you go onto amazon and search for books on raw feeding you should get a list of books to check out. Ian Billinghurst is one of the better known authors and has written a few books such as 'The Barf Diet: For Cats and Dogs' which I got from amazon.
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Harry has just had his first chicken wing ph34r :P.
The more I read the more this BARF way of feeding makes sense. He's totally disinterested with his kibble - loves sardines, egg, fruit, veg and meat that we have, so really it's just a step on from that.....but a bit more organised and......raw! ::).
I'm going to mix it with his kibble (just 'cos I'm tight and don't want to waste it ph34r) - do you think that's a good idea, or a bad one?
I know about the worming side of things after reading all 17 pages of this thread ;), but can somebody tell me to stop worrying about it with regard to the dog and our children and licks and salmonella etc. That's the only hurdle for OH at the moment - other than that I'm sold :lol:.
I'm a little apprehensive about ever having to tell the VET too........but, I'll worry about that should the need arise ;)
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I'm going to mix it with his kibble (just 'cos I'm tight and don't want to waste it ph34r) - do you think that's a good idea, or a bad one?
You might want to avoid mixing both in the same meal - raw and processed foods is digested at different rates and can have explosive effects on some dogs :005: - but Molo was fed one processed/one raw meal a day for several months :D
We have never stopped Molo giving lil'bit kisses all over her face - much to the horror of many - but she loves it, and we have never had a problem with worms :D
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You might want to avoid mixing both in the same meal - raw and processed foods is digested at different rates and can have explosive effects on some dogs - but Molo was fed one processed/one raw meal a day for several months
:shades: right - thanks for that :005: :005:
I know that you try to ensure that Molo will eat kibble too, which I feel sensible - especially for holidays/kennels etc.
As for the worms - I'm not too bothered about this aspect as I don't think that I'll be feeding rabitt too often tbh, it was more from an E.Coli/Salmonella angle that I was concerned about. The thought of raw chicken being thrown about is going to send me reaching for the Dettol spray when he's finished! I know a lot of you are feeding outside (or on black bags, Nicola) but I think that in winter weather, this will be a bit impractical perhaps :-\. I know that if I am feeding good quality meat that the liklihood of this type of bacteria being present is minimised anyway. There was mention on the UKBarf site about pork bones and risk to health.........
I suppose, for goodness sake, the dog walks in the park and probably treads in god knows what and I don't stop to think about it :-\.......perhaps I've answered my own question here ::).
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You could always first freeze everything you feed, that will help to minimise the risk, I do that.
However the human mouth contains millions of bacteria, a dogs mouth will too, (although not identical types of course). Hygiene precautions with dogs and children should be the same whatever you feed. My view is that within reason children exposed to a wide range of bacteria, viruses and fungi (ie 'dirt') have a more robust immune system by the time they are adults than those who are protected by dettol infested homes.
Having said that I do thoroughly wipe down and disinfect all surfaces and wash my hands straight after preparing batches of Ferns raw food, the same as I do after preparing raw meat for cooking for ourselves. It's the sensible thing to do.
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Thanks for the advice so far :D
Nicola, I've managed to find and download "Work Wonders: Feed your Dog Raw Meaty Bones" by Tom Lonsdale. I'm tryin to plough trough that to get some answers. Thanks so much for all the help so far though. It's one of those things I just feel uneasy about, I guess because the thought of raw meet is a scary one. Did anyone see Horizon last night about so called "organic" chicken? Scary stuff!
My view is that within reason children exposed to a wide range of bacteria, viruses and fungi (ie 'dirt') have a more robust immune system by the time they are adults than those who are protected by dettol infested homes.
Absolutely! If I ever have a child I don't intend to drag it through layers of grime and germs, but you don't need to provide a sterile environment. Children who have grown up with pets are less likely to have allergies and some childhood illnesses. There's some things you should obviousy do as you say, like cleaning surfaces, but there's a difference between clean and sterile!
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My view is that within reason children exposed to a wide range of bacteria, viruses and fungi (ie 'dirt') have a more robust immune system by the time they are adults than those who are protected by dettol infested homes.
Absolutely! If I ever have a child I don't intend to drag it through layers of grime and germs, but you don't need to provide a sterile environment. Children who have grown up with pets are less likely to have allergies and some childhood illnesses. There's some things you should obviousy do as you say, like cleaning surfaces, but there's a difference between clean and sterile!
I totally agree. I have this opinion, but OH is a Dr so his hand hygiene is spot on (and of course it should be) but this overflows into domestic areas too iyswim ;). (not that he has OCD btw :lol:)
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My view is that within reason children exposed to a wide range of bacteria, viruses and fungi (ie 'dirt') have a more robust immune system by the time they are adults than those who are protected by dettol infested homes.
Absolutely! If I ever have a child I don't intend to drag it through layers of grime and germs, but you don't need to provide a sterile environment. Children who have grown up with pets are less likely to have allergies and some childhood illnesses. There's some things you should obviousy do as you say, like cleaning surfaces, but there's a difference between clean and sterile!
I totally agree. I have this opinion, but OH is a Dr so his hand hygiene is spot on (and of course it should be) but this overflows into domestic areas too iyswim ;). (not that he has OCD btw :lol:)
:lol: In which case he will know exactly where I am coming from. (I work in microbiology btw ph34r :005: )
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In which case he will know exactly where I am coming from. (I work in microbiology btw )
I thought that we had similar backgrounds :lol:. I'm a biologist and he's a medic - recipe for disaster ::) :005: :005:. I found something on the Barf site about salmonella etc and all seems fine in the Phillyknickers household ;).
Harry had 200g mince with an egg and a chicken wing for tea.........waggy tail and two 'check to see if I've finished it' licks :P
I need to whizz some veg...............
this is just like doing Annabel Carmel with the children all over again.......does anyone know what I mean, or am I rambling to myself again :huh: ::) :005:
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.......does anyone know what I mean, or am I rambling to myself again :huh: ::) :005:
No idea what you are talking about but as long as you know! :005:
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:lol:
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My vet did advise worming every three months instead of six months when feeding raw if there were young children in the house (shes more then happy with a Barf diet). You might like to check that out with your vet?
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My vet did advise worming every three months instead of six months when feeding raw if there were young children in the house
Was that for Tapeworm do you know?
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My vet did advise worming every three months instead of six months when feeding raw if there were young children in the house
Was that for Tapeworm do you know?
No idea (no young children in this household) but hes on Drontal which covers all worms and seeing how quick tapeworms are passed around I guess so
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(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q150/Phillyknickers/bones-1.jpg)
So, how much would you give then :shades:. They are frozen in the photo, but I know the lamb ribs aren't very meaty are they :-\.......The others are beef.....
Is it OK to give Beef as I think that some of you said it wears their teeth?
They were free :o and he'll give me them every week :shades: yippee!! :lol: (especially if they're a bit more meaty next time ).