Author Topic: working strain in blood line  (Read 7224 times)

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Offline Helen

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Re: working strain in blood line
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2016, 08:09:41 AM »
each of us has our choice - I chose 2 beautifully strong, healthy, biddable working cockers. One has a COI of around 8, the other is line bred and has a COI of 15.6.

I would choose dogs from those lines and breeding time and time again.  My oldest is 11 and has had no health issues all his life - his only vet visits were due to injuries.  My youngest is nearly 2 and is in rude health  :lol2:  Both have exemplary temperaments (temperament is a huge part of their breeders remit).  Health testing and COI is PART of a breeding package.  A good breeder takes everything into account. 

And yes, I agree wholeheartedly with Emilyoliver.



helen & jarvis x


Offline Helen

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Re: working strain in blood line
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2016, 08:26:50 AM »
My last cocker was a top pedigree and a most beautiful example of the breed. Unfortunately I eventually lost him with severe aggression issues. Yes, you guessed it, he had a COI of 16 which I didn't understand at the time. He had undescended testicles and was the only survivor of a very small litter, a classic sign of genetic problems.  Oh the benefits of hindsight, what heartache it would have saved.

My youngest has a COI of close to 16.  I would choose him again and again.

You chose a singleton, small size and with undescended testicles - and yes hindsight can save heartache. It could have been as a result of congenital issues, and maybe the aggression was also part of some part of developmental issue in the womb.   Whatever you think of the breeder, they wouldn't be breeding from these dogs if this was the type of litter they produce.

As for undescended testicles the thinking is that is is mostly hereditary but the gene has never been identified.  It can be congenital as well.

It is a heartbreaking situation for you but thousands of dogs with higher COI's are perfectly healthy. 

Out of interest what COI does your new Field Spaniel puppy have?
helen & jarvis x


Offline tenaille

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Re: working strain in blood line
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2016, 10:04:57 AM »
Hi Helen, yes we were very very unlucky, and the first time breeder was also heartbroken over the loss of her other 2 pups. As you say, a high COI does not by itself mean problems will occur, but can increase the risk and may have done so in this case. I have chosen a fieldie now despite the breed having a  COI of around 20. Of course a lower COI would have been preferable but wasn't an option. However I am sure of the health and temperament of both parents and grandparents (and other relatives) and have complete confidence in the breeder.
I will have another cocker, they are my first love, but I will do my research more carefully than last time.

Offline daw

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Re: working strain in blood line
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2016, 10:47:08 AM »
I'd be really interested in the research on these thousands of dogs with high CoI's and lack of health compromising. Because the stats all seem to be pointing one way currently: inbreeding from incest equals poor outcomes. As I've said on another threat any single individual can survive amazing biological trauma against the odds- but whether we should be subjecting any dog to even mild jeopardy is an ethical question in itself.  :-\ (Could you give me your reference concerning your assertion please Helen? where did it appear? Is it peer reviewed?) 

As for dismissing the health problems just described as something that could've happened in the womb, well once again apply the reality test. We know many health problems are inherited. We know even behavioural problems can be traced in some lines of cocker. We know people are still having to part with animals under heartbreaking circumstances because of them. Hard to let the breeders of these dogs off the hook therefore.

Offline elaine.e

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Re: working strain in blood line
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2016, 11:14:19 AM »
I wouldn't want a Cocker that was something like a 50/50 mix of working and show lines because I'd feel uncertain about what I'd be getting in terms of conformation, coat and working drive. I'd also be questioning in my mind the motivation of the breeder for breeding such a litter, even if the CoI was low and all health tests done.

However, if the pedigree was mainly show or working and had some ancestors of the opposite type in one line several generations back I really wouldn't be hugely concerned. My Louis is a show type, but on his dam's side has one working Cocker 4 generations back (and obviously the ancestors of that dog back from there). I don't know enough about genetics to be able to predict what influence his 6.25% working blood might have on him, but on balance I decided not to let it worry me.

As it happens the only thing about him that I feel may have been influenced by his working ancestors is that he doesn't have quite as profuse a coat as some show types. That was a bit of a hindrance when I was showing him, but it enables me to keep him in a handstripped show type coat even now when he's "just" a pet dog without having to put loads of effort in.