Author Topic: Advice on guarding  (Read 4123 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline ips

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1226
  • Gender: Male
Re: Advice on guarding
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2017, 08:31:34 PM »


Alpha rolling (or pinning down in any way) is really dangerous advice and could easily make matters many many times worse.

Not being argumentative in any way but can you elaborate ?
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Ben's mum

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2951
  • Gender: Female
Re: Advice on guarding
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2017, 09:47:58 PM »

And I would never shoot down in flames my friends on COL , we've all had different experiences so will have different opinions, so,shouldn't be afraid to express what we think. The nice thing about this group,is that we can do that without the flaming that goes on in so many online groups, as has been mentioned in another thread.   Your opinions as all respected  :bigarmhug:

Lesley and Dylan

I forget sometimes how nice people are on COL - they aren't that nice on all forums/Facebook sites  :-\ and sometimes I don't mind saying what I think and don't mind what others think of me, but at the moment I guess I really just want an easy time and to play nicely   :luv:
thank you  :bigarmhug:

Offline Ben's mum

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2951
  • Gender: Female
Re: Advice on guarding
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2017, 10:00:39 PM »


Alpha rolling (or pinning down in any way) is really dangerous advice and could easily make matters many many times worse.

Not being argumentative in any way but can you elaborate ?

I can elaborate how it made things worse for me - when we had Ben 14 years ago thoughts were different about dominance, pack status and how to treat your dog to show them who was boss! . He was my first cocker and there was still a lot of mumblings about 'rage'.  He was very bitey, threw tantrums, nipped at us and had mad moments all things I would now accept as normal cocker puppy behaviours.  I phoned a behaviourist when he was 12 weeks old who told me he wanted to be top dog and I had to assert my authority she recommended holding him off the ground with legs dangling till he 'submitted' or holding him firmly down again till he submitted.   I believed her, she was a 'professional'.   To cut a long story short I ended up with a fear aggressive reactive dog, who would bite and mean it when he was scared.  It took a lot of work and about 4 years to undo the damage.  He remained fearful of being handled by people he didn't know and aggressive in any situation where he was frightened.

When the trainer at agility held him down he was about 8 or 9 and I saw my beautiful boy fall apart he was so frightened when she did it.  She said he needed to be shown who was boss because he had growled at a bigger dog who got in his space (fear aggression)  she couldn't see how scared he was he was shaking and crying, it broke my heart.   

I know ideas come and go with training, but in my eyes it was so destructive and changed the character of a perfectly normal cocker pup.

Offline Finvarra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1419
  • Milo, best of dogs
    • Gaia Art
Re: Advice on guarding
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2017, 09:09:30 AM »
Poor Ben, I can see why you were upset, that trainer was well out of line. The advice you got about dominance was what it was about some years ago, and it didn't seem to matter about the reasons your dog was being difficult. Finn was not a nice biddable dog and wasn't afraid of anything, and I think what I did with him was the right thing for him, like with Murphy and her cavalier. It didn't turn him into a wreck, but he knew he was badly in the wrong for biting me, and he never did it again. There isn't a one size fits all, and  while I think dog training has come on in leaps and bounds, with positive reinforcement etc., sometimes something a bit stronger might be necessary, within reasonable boundaries of course.

I think some trainers can be a bit too assertive themselves  :005:

Lesley and Dylan
Remembering All the dogs of my life, especially Milo

Offline hoover

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
Re: Advice on guarding
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2017, 10:05:21 AM »
It's such a tricky one teasing out cause and effect and the repercussions of various methods of training, especially as many behaviours are manifesting at adolescence which could be attributed either to style of handling or to inherent personality.  Ollie was certainly not keen on handling for a good period of time despite never having had aversive experiences in this respect and to be honest I still do attribute this time as a stage where he was trying to throw his weight around and control situations - controlling his access to resources - spaces, toys, food, and controlling how people interacted with him - who was allowed to touch him, and where.

To be frank if I thought an 'alpha roll' could have nipped this in the bud and saved us from months of puncture wounds and bruising I certainly would have done it - but I was very aware there was no way we could safely do this due to level of ferocity he was capable of at a very early age.  We would have then have failed at this endeavour and Ollie would have learned that he just needed to use even higher levels of aggression to control situations in the future.

I definitely agree there is not a one size fits all approach and believe that stronger approaches can work for some dogs dependent on their personalities.

Offline ips

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1226
  • Gender: Male
Re: Advice on guarding
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2017, 10:58:54 AM »


Alpha rolling (or pinning down in any way) is really dangerous advice and could easily make matters many many times worse.

Not being argumentative in any way but can you elaborate ?

I can elaborate how it made things worse for me - when we had Ben 14 years ago thoughts were different about dominance, pack status and how to treat your dog to show them who was boss! . He was my first cocker and there was still a lot of mumblings about 'rage'.  He was very bitey, threw tantrums, nipped at us and had mad moments all things I would now accept as normal cocker puppy behaviours.  I phoned a behaviourist when he was 12 weeks old who told me he wanted to be top dog and I had to assert my authority she recommended holding him off the ground with legs dangling till he 'submitted' or holding him firmly down again till he submitted.   I believed her, she was a 'professional'.   To cut a long story short I ended up with a fear aggressive reactive dog, who would bite and mean it when he was scared.  It took a lot of work and about 4 years to undo the damage.  He remained fearful of being handled by people he didn't know and aggressive in any situation where he was frightened.

When the trainer at agility held him down he was about 8 or 9 and I saw my beautiful boy fall apart he was so frightened when she did it.  She said he needed to be shown who was boss because he had growled at a bigger dog who got in his space (fear aggression)  she couldn't see how scared he was he was shaking and crying, it broke my heart.   

I know ideas come and go with training, but in my eyes it was so destructive and changed the character of a perfectly normal cocker pup.

Thank you.
I totally understand I too would have been devastated if someone handled my dog in that way which is why I have never seen a trainer as I know "some" gundog trainers can be very hands on. Maybe it depends on the dog and the situation and who does the pinning down and for how long etc etc. I only did it a few times and not in an aggressive manner it was something I did instinctively in order to stop her hurting herself. At that time I knew absolutely nothing about dogs and it was only after the event that I read somewhere that it was a method used to replicate an adult dog correcting a youngster. Mine was not for correction per se, maybe she realised I was protecting her until she calmed down. Anyway she has never ever shown any aggression or guarding apart from barking at anyone who comes into the yard, its more of a muffled growl as she usually has her toy pheasant in her gob 😁 .

I fully respect your view on it and I totally agree about the dominance theory being nonsense 👍
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Murphys Law

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1521
  • Gender: Male
Re: Advice on guarding
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2017, 07:06:01 PM »
I know a lot of experts now believe that the dominance theory is rubbish but I am not so sure. I have read many stories about people with 2 or more dogs where one of them is the boss. A friend of mine has 4 staffies and until recently, the oldest bitch was most definitely the dominant dog. But lately, as she has got older, the others have sensed weakness and have started fighting for top spot.
My cavalier was my first dog and I let him get away with murder. I am sure he decided that he was in charge due to the weakness of the rest of his pack.

Offline ips

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1226
  • Gender: Male
Re: Advice on guarding
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2017, 07:28:49 PM »
I know a lot of experts now believe that the dominance theory is rubbish but I am not so sure. I have read many stories about people with 2 or more dogs where one of them is the boss. A friend of mine has 4 staffies and until recently, the oldest bitch was most definitely the dominant dog. But lately, as she has got older, the others have sensed weakness and have started fighting for top spot.
My cavalier was my first dog and I let him get away with murder. I am sure he decided that he was in charge due to the weakness of the rest of his pack.

You may be correct murphyslaw. I think maybe the term "dominant" is incorrect and portrays an aversive methodology. However there is no question in my mind that the dog must accept the handler as the "leader". If this was not the case then we as handlers would have no control. How one becomes accepted as the leader is the big question. I like to believe that my bitch accepts that I can direct her to fun things which I will at some point allow her to do but only if she complies with certain rules of the game
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Karma

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5330
  • Gender: Female
Re: Advice on guarding
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2017, 11:14:26 PM »

There are several ways in which alpha rolling can make things worse (sorry, I didn't have time to write more when I posted previously....).

Firstly there is the risk that the dog could react aggressively to the roll and bite there and then.

But, for me, the bigger risk is the potential long term impacts - most dogs are actually very forgiving and suffer no ill effects.  For some, they find it very threatening and it can trigger fear aggression.  However, the most dangerous situation is the dog who is alpha rolled for displaying a fear/anxiety reaction (which can include guarding behaviour) who simply learns to supress that reaction.... the dog may appear to be "cured", but is still experiencing the fear reaction and, at some point, will reach the point where they can't supress it any more but, because they are now so far over threshold, rather than growling (or any other more subtle warning signs) they go straight for the bite.  These are the dogs who suddenly inflict a serious bite, and people say "we just didn't see it coming.... he's never so much as growled since he was a puppy.". 

I totally understand it can be a minefield to work out what the best approach is (and that understanding of dog behaviour has progressed a lot in recent years) - especially as there are lots of (unqualified) trainers out there who still advise aversive training methods.

As far as dominance goes - yes, a dog needs a leader.... they need consistency and they need boundaries... but as owners we already control when they eat, when they go for a walk, what they eat etc.... aversive methods of asserting dominance (or the more bizarre ones like ensuring you eat something before feeding your dog, or standing in their bed before allowing them in) aren't needed to establish your role as leader.  And, as an employee, I am going to give my best work to a boss who treats me fairly and consistently (and makes my work fun and rewarding) than one who threatens to sack me if I make a mistake.   The whole theory of dominance was born out of a study of captive wolves (rather than studying their natural wild behaviour) and just assumed the behaviour of these wolves was applicable to domestic dogs.  Mech, who originally devised the theory, later retracted it.

At the end of the day, we all do our best with the information we have available to us at that time. 
Remembering Honey. Aug 2007-July 2020

Offline hoover

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
Re: Advice on guarding
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2017, 11:52:56 PM »
And this again is an interesting one as more recent studies are challenging theories again, showing real distinctions in behaviours of wolves and dogs, and in fact showing that wolves cooperate more whereas dogs tend to form more linear dominance hierarchies that demand obedience from those considered subordinate.

Have a read of the summary of this study:   http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/08/wolves-cooperate-dogs-submit-study-suggests

This would suggest dogs do operate in a dominant-submissive paradigm, monopolising food when they recognised they were dominant in a given pairing whereas the lower ranking dog did not even attempt to access the food.  This was in contrast to wolves where dominant animals allowed access to lower ranking animals.  The study goes on to make suggestions that during the domestication of wild dogs it was important for humans to be able to control them and this led to a selective breeding process that favoured animals that could be more readily enticed to obey, and distinguishing these animals from the wolves that did not have such an obvious dominance structure.

Offline ips

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1226
  • Gender: Male
Re: Advice on guarding
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2017, 08:26:52 AM »
Its all very interesting stuff, 👍
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline hoover

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
Re: Advice on guarding
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2017, 12:36:41 AM »
It really is.  There are so many influences and so many potential scenarios in dog behaviour (as with human behaviour) that it is hard to qualify what is going on for any given dog.  What we generally seem to do is post-hoc rationalisation according to the latest theories available, and whatever sits most comfortably with our own personal philosophies and moral compasses.

It does not sit well with many of us, quite understandably, to think of punitive behaviour as ultimately beneficial for a dog (or at least a dog- humans interaction scenario which i guess most of us are working towards, as for the dog themselves aggressive behaviour might actually work out quite well for them, but not in the context in which we are hoping to live alongside them.)

And yet, I would really describe myself as quite utlitarian in this respect - that the overall positive benefit would justify short term punitive approaches - IF that's how they worked (and I'm still not convinced they do)  So if I thought a short term aversive approach would save myself, family, partner, other people....my own dog, other dogs from longer term negative consequences (bites, having to be put to sleep)..yes I would do it.  And it seems it does work for some people, at least from what we've heard here and from general anecdotal responses.

It's an interesting one.  In Scotland I believe we will soon be banning smacking, the argument being that it's abusive and not necessary to correct a child as there are other more effective ways of disciplining children and achieving positive behaviour.  It is of course also argued that one form of physical correction will lead a justification  of the child's physical response in future scenarios -..if my mum hits then it is ok for me to hit. -  But at the same time authorities act in ways they do not allow citizens to - authorities imprison people to regulate behaviour when we don't allow an individual citizen to incarcerate someone on a whim.  Does our position and our hope for an eventual overall positive outcome for the dog and everyone they encounter justify responses that are aversive?

Does acting aggressively ourselves encourage our dogs to act more aggressively as we are models for them, or will they escalate aggression in response? Or does a strong dominant approach actually encourage an immediate and longstanding submissive attitude which suppresses aggressive reactions in the long term, through the dog understanding that, in the hierarchy, they are not dominant, and they are not inappropriately allowed to exhibit aggressive response?  The more more recent studies seem to suggest the latter is achievable due to a strong instinctive sense of hierarchy dogs seem to work to (albeit in smaller scale studies). 

Are we doing our dogs, other dogs and people in general a disservice by actually fostering more aggressive responses because our permissiveness  doesn't  'nip things in the bud' and we mistakenly believe positive training can solve all problems when it leads to the dog's sense that they are in control and can act as they wish to determine all scenarios to their advantage?

I don't know and I don't think there are any straightforward answers.  I certainly can see how attempts by myself to try to control situations by a more 'dominant approach' have completely backfired and encouraged more aggressive response, but I also can't help but think this is because I was ostentatiously no match for Ollie and his teeth - and, like an unevenly matched stand-off in the park, the one with bigger will, and teeth (and flooding testosterone) won.  When the power discrepancy is massive and transparently unassailable in favour of the other (dog parks with very confident large dogs, who will 'tell off' where necessary) I can see very clearly how my dog submits and we have a very peaceable situation - posturing is enough to alert all what the outcome is.  When Ollie was in the presence of huge men again he was instinctively submissive.

Offline phoenix

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1400
Re: Advice on guarding
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2017, 10:17:51 PM »
To me,  we are responsible for imposing  unnatural  conditions on our dogs.
Firstly  in confining their instinct to roam and freedom to avoid confrontation,   and secondly by selective breeding.

For example, I have watched stray and feral dogs in countries that aren't pet-owners. They seemed to wander independently, no packs, and  no fighting. No guarding.

I always wondered why my pup of 12 weeks  guarded .  He was  a top  show line, bred for beauty. Being a pup, he'd no issues with confinement. So my conclusion is that  he was born with it.
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.