Author Topic: Are there more working cockers....  (Read 6613 times)

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Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Are there more working cockers....
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2006, 05:18:13 PM »


 I have posted a photo of him (somewhere! as I have problems posting photo's, any help appreciated!),

So what do you think?

It doesn't really matter too much as I love him to pieces!!

Here are your pictures!
http://cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=15241.msg186824#msg186824

I'm not an expert by any means - but from the picture of Loki, he looks like a show cocker - but sometimes you can tell the difference from the body/legs.... :huh:

I agree that it makes no difference as to breed, strain, registration - they are all gorgeous  ;)
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Offline PennyB

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Re: Are there more working cockers....
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2006, 07:53:22 PM »
People buying springers as pets would think it odd if their pup grew long ears up here. There doesnt seem to be the need for springer breeders to make sure that the new owners know exactly what type of breeding they are buying. Whereas with cockers, the 'default' strain is show, so I always make sure I make it clear what my pups are.

But surely theres a difference in those from working stock or otherwise, and the same applies to border collies (how many working stock collies end up in pet homes then rescue as their owners can't cope with their needs)
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Offline workingcockers

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Re: Are there more working cockers....
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2006, 08:13:15 PM »
yes = there is a physical diff in show and working bred springers too -  but what I am trying to say if that there doesnt seem to be as much confusion between the 2 types in Scotland anyway. most ads are for working stock and that is what most people will picture in their mind if you say ESS to them. If you want a show bred ESS then you will have to do leg work and find a show breeding ESS person. There are a few up here and yes, those that dont make it to the show ring are pets, but off the top of my head I can name only 5 or 6 show breeders up here - Lochindorb, Grace in Fife cant rememebr affix, barbara's berkenbar's, Jims Elimveks, Ediths Roseannoch, Honeymans Beecraigs, Im sure there's a few more but these are the main ones active in the ring. Compare that to the hundreds of working type ESS breeders.
Ive never owned a show bred ESS. only working bred but Im sure there will be a difference to a point. But if all instincts have been bred out of show ESS then it is a great pity, I dont believe this to be the case 100% yet. Why buy a gundog when it cant smell its way out of a paper bag?
yes - I agree - most I think going into rescue are working type ESS, partly because numerically there are far far more of them and also because theyre busy little people. I have fostered springers in the past and the dogs havent had a problem, its been their owners, which takes us back to responsible breeders and where they home their pups to. Im sure that BC have the same problem - is there is diff between the show ring BC and the farm bred one? I have no experience at all with BC!!
Kirsten Strachan
Lorne Working Cockers

Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Are there more working cockers....
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2006, 08:42:31 PM »
Ive never owned a show bred ESS. only working bred but Im sure there will be a difference to a point. But if all instincts have been bred out of show ESS then it is a great pity, I dont believe this to be the case 100% yet. Why buy a gundog when it cant smell its way out of a paper bag?

I can't speak for springers - but do you think this is generally the case for show strain cockers?

Im sure that BC have the same problem - is there is diff between the show ring BC and the farm bred one? I have no experience at all with BC!!

Yes  there are physical and/or behavioural differences in the show "strain" of many breeds - borders, labradors, terriers  - in fact, nearly all breeds that are still used to work have variations between working strains to their show ring cousins. With the GSD and lab it gets even more interesting as their are now breeding programmes for specific jobs - some breeders are selectively breeding GSD's for protection work for instance; as the show/pet strains have become to "soft"  ::)
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Offline isla

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Re: Are there more working cockers....
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2006, 09:16:47 PM »
In my area there are a few working cockers. I hadn't seen one beore I got Jem. One woman was very pleased that i recognised her working cocker she says she gets sick of arguing with people about her being a cocker spaniel another couple near us have one too although they did know the difference between show and working lines when they got him. He is beautiful but not what they thought they were buying. Fortunately they are not at all disappointed but have found that he needs a lot more stimulus than their last show cocker.

Offline workingcockers

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Re: Are there more working cockers....
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2006, 09:28:10 PM »
Yes  there are physical and/or behavioural differences in the show "strain" of many breeds - borders, labradors, terriers  - in fact, nearly all breeds that are still used to work have variations between working strains to their show ring cousins. With the GSD and lab it gets even more interesting as their are now breeding programmes for specific jobs - some breeders are selectively breeding GSD's for protection work for instance; as the show/pet strains have become to "soft"

yes - the gundogs breeds particulalry have been affected with the split - the labs and goldens, setters (excluding the IRWS) as well as the spaniels breeds. Im glad the HPR although there are diff strains in each breed, tend to be more dual purpose .I know some BSD breeders are concerned about the possible split in the malanois.
Of course, there has been many suspected 'improvements' in the working dogs as documented in books by breed authorities- eg suspected greyhound and the hint of rottweiler in the working lab, setter (poss 2 infusions), collie and springer in cockers which hasnt helped in trying to maintain 1 breed.
I honestly dont know about all strains of show cockers. I do find it worrying that there hasnt been a full CH for decades though, I dont know if this is because breeders/owners have no interest in training their dogs, or because of lack of latent instinct. I can understand why people restrict themselves to one thing or another though - its not a criticism. What I do observe though,while out shopping, passing cars, out walking, at shows,  is many show bred cockers being noisy, barking etc. I have one!!  This is never tolerated in a working dog and is an eliminating fault at a FT. I will not keep a puppy that even sighs heavily.
I really dont have the answer to be honest!! Maybe if there wasnt a SH CH title, the split would not be as great and more would be more interested in gundog work. Im not saying for a minute that I want the SH CH title removed as I think it is a great shame that many worthy dogs in the past did not get  titled when the show title didnt exist, but its food for thought. Also, with the greater emphasis on coat and presentation and the cost of showing now,  I can understand why many dont want to participate, and its expensive enough doing one activity without trying 2,  but again, which judges started rewarding profuse coats with high honours which is not in the breed standard and set the trend. Chicken and egg. I know of only one show kennel that tries to maintain working abilities which is fantastic.
I was planning to show my girl in veteran this year, but I think I am going to have to clip her up as its got to the stage where she cant come on walks through woods with the others as every minute or so we have to stop and remove these fine bits of branch that are blown everywere from her rear end, She now has mats in her too where things have wound round and round. It no fun for her having a show length coat esp on her hind legs and Ive had enough of it. If I trim her the way I would like, she won't be given a second look in the ring..
However, I guess we have to live with what we have now. There will always be people wanting to make easy money and sell to the first person to call. There will always be pups of any breed living in unsuitable homes ready to come into rescue.
Kirsten Strachan
Lorne Working Cockers

Offline workingcockers

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Re: Are there more working cockers....
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2006, 09:29:13 PM »
but not what they thought they were buying.

did they not see the mother though and notice she looked a bit different to their last cocker?
Kirsten Strachan
Lorne Working Cockers

Offline Helen

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Re: Are there more working cockers....
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2006, 09:41:44 PM »
There will always be people wanting to make easy money and sell to the first person to call. There will always be pups of any breed living in unsuitable homes ready to come into rescue.


and i really hope kirsten, that there will always be caring and responsible breeders like you ;)  (now get back to that book....i'm hanging out for it !!!!!!)
helen & jarvis x


Offline workingcockers

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Re: Are there more working cockers....
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2006, 09:46:31 PM »
Just after I wrote this a story popped into my head.

parents of an ex colleague from work had lost their CKCS early. Dodgy breeder, had the typical heart probs associated with the breed, died young. So, they decided to go for a cocker. colleague asked my advise knowing I bred them.
I did the usual, show or worker, find good breeder - I offered to locate one for them, health tests, poss go on waiting list , KC reg - all the usual good advice given on this forum. well, just before the end of the year got an email to say they had bought a cocker. I pumped her for info, who what where etc. Not very forthcoming about details or what the pedigree was. After all the advice, and the benefit of having the internet, they had bought a red cocker. Not KC reg, didnt see the mother, no health tests. I pressed for further info, breeder seemed to have lots of pups, dont think she owned the mother etc, not even a hand writtem pedigree. Ive sen the pics of him, no doubt he is a big cocker, bit of both types I would say. But, through many glasses of red wine, I am thinking, no wonder people dont have a clue what they are buying - they ask advice and fly right in the face of it as 'they only want a pet'. It makes me mad that there are breeders and dealers like this. Whats the bets that this cocker ends up having probs - the breed will get a bad name, if he's excitable, then the working part of him will be blamed, any temp prob will be laid at the door of his colour. I bet the breeder/dealer charged more than the going rate and will wash her hands of him if they contact her..
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Offline workingcockers

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Re: Are there more working cockers....
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2006, 09:47:20 PM »
will be a miracle if this year as have a nice consignment of Shiraz in :angel:
edited to add, lots of cockers are interested in trying to steal it too - however, all are sleeping just now so might pour another one - its only work in the morning >:D
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Lorne Working Cockers

Offline k

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Re: Are there more working cockers....
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2006, 11:20:55 PM »
I always find these posts on show or working interesting. I did loads of research before we got Bramble(our working cocker). However when I got nearly all the books on various breeds out of the library I don't think I came across one real mention that there is such a difference. Also  I had spoken to a number of breeders who I am assuming bred show strain cockers who also didn't tell me. It was only when I spoke to a breeder of the working strain was I asked whether that type was what I wanted. I then went back mainly to the internet to do more research and came across the felstead site and other similar ones. It was also then that I came across COL and asked my question; Show or working? which was really helpful but there certainly 2 years ago didn't seem to be as many working cocker owners here as there are now. I'm sure the internet will help people research breeds better but I found even on sites that gave you general info about various breeds hardly any mentioned there was different strains in breeds like gundogs

Offline Jane S

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Re: Are there more working cockers....
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2006, 11:43:06 PM »
I was planning to show my girl in veteran this year, but I think I am going to have to clip her up as its got to the stage where she cant come on walks through woods with the others as every minute or so we have to stop and remove these fine bits of branch that are blown everywere from her rear end, She now has mats in her too where things have wound round and round. It no fun for her having a show length coat esp on her hind legs and Ive had enough of it. If I trim her the way I would like, she won't be given a second look in the ring..

This is down to coat texture though not just length. I exercise our show Cockers in the woods and always have done - our first Show Champion spent many hours on hikes with me and her coat was long but never picked up much in the way of "debris" whereas our older spayed girls who get fluffier coats do tend to attract twigs, brambles etc so I keep their coats shorter. I was actually quite surprised by how much woodland Bayley (foster Working Cocker) brought home with him after being out in the forest so I did cut his feathering shorter to reduce this a bit. Not sure he would pass the "quiet gundog" test either ;) Not all show Cockers are noisy - some lines are known for it whereas others aren't - we have two who hardly ever bark whereas one of our oldies is terribly noisy (but then she is deaf now so can't hear what she's doing & does come from a known "barky" line :laugh:)

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Offline workingcockers

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Re: Are there more working cockers....
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2006, 12:46:07 AM »
I know - the hair on her back in short and silky, but probably with age, the legs are getting woolier. She has what most would consider an easy coat though - yikes!! Other problem is she really doesnt like being brushed or trimmed...its fair to say she is a total mess at the moment!! Glad the workers are as bald as coots  ^_^ and so is the setter!!
I have seen a huge difference though in amount and texture of coats from say mid 70's to now - esp in the darker parti's . Im like the cobbler - groomed other peoples dogs esp cockers, but leave mine until crisis stage!! Always was happy to see a lighter coloured parti though as so much easier.Dont groom now though - too many fumigation incidents with really neglected coats and cost me a fortune each time to decontaminate... Enough was enough. Know what you mean about oldies = my WSS is deaf but can feel the setter barking so she starts - with only having one eye too, got to wait until she turns round to wave at her to get her to stop!!
AND - Im so glad to say I found a couple of full CH's in the last 15 years - the Okell's!! I stand very much corrected as I was thinking too far back..
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Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Are there more working cockers....
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2006, 06:25:11 AM »
I'm sure the internet will help people research breeds better but I found even on sites that gave you general info about various breeds hardly any mentioned there was different strains in breeds like gundogs

I agree - I do think places that provide breed profiles - including, but not limited to, the KC, should highlight the breeds in which there different breeding programmes leading to different strains - people are guided by these types of sites when researching and to ignore the fact that there are differences seems irresponsible given the intended purpose of the sites ;)
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Offline Dannyt

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Re: Are there more working cockers....
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2006, 07:00:27 AM »
It could also be the case that more people realise it's a working cocker they have got thanks to sites like COL. Better information is available in general. I have known lots of working cocker owners over the years and  most couldn't tell you the difference.