what the vet said

[henaly]

all i can tell you about docking in my experience is the litter that was done yesterday screamed, every puppy not just yelped but sreamed with each dock, they did not settle all day and 2 of them ended up back at the vet as the bled too much s were dressed and given pain killers.
i have seen some of the damage that can be done in some working dogs and i understand y some genuinly worked breeds need it done but as for cosmetics this is not acceptable.

[bluegirl]

My experince of watching Penny's litter being docked and having dewclaws removed is very different. After a quick cry they were all back suckling off Penny and that was it, reminded me of taking my own babies for their immunisations at 4 mths old.

[Petra]

Sorry, maybe I am being ridiculously dense here, but why is only the top thrid of a working cockers tail docked??   Surely the whole tail has as much chance of getting injured??

Apologies if this has already been answered - had a quick read through but could not find an explanation....

FWIW - Dill's breeder said the litter all cried when docked (except for Dill whom we asked to be kept undocked ) and she made a decision there and then not to dock any of her future litters

I would be on the high fence with Helen, Rachel and others if a workers tail was fully docked, but as it is I don't understand only taken a third and leaving the rest open to sustain a possible injury....

[Rhona W]

This is slightly off topic (again  ) but I wondered if anyone could explain to me why a working cocker has a long dock and a show cocker has a short one. 
It has always puzzled me as logically it would make more sense for it to be the other way round. 

Edited to say: Posted the same time as Petra. I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't understand. 

[Joules]

Coco is fully docked - I first saw her at 2 weeks and as it had already been done when she was a couple of days old, it was too late.  Given the choice I would have kept her tail as she is not destined to be a working dog.  I am not pro or anti docking really and can quite understand the practical reasons for docking in working dogs.  However, as I have learned more since having Coco, I would not choose to have a pet dog docked. 

I am also curious about the logic of partial docking in working dogs - obviously there is less tail to wave about but even Coco's little stump can wag madly so a partial tail would surely be vulnerable to the same risk of injury as a full one 

[michelle123]

Hope not to offend but I am all in favour of pet dogs not being docked.  Blue is un docked and obviously I wouldnt have him any other way.
I confess to knowing nothing at all about working cockers however, we had a labrador in our family who was a gun dog and of course he was un-cocked - what is the difference ?
I hope not to get a back lash for this - I simply dont understand 

[Joules]

we had a labrador in our family who was a gun dog and of course he was un-cocked - what is the difference ?

I think that is something completely different! 

[michelle123]

Hence the reason, Joules, why I confessed to not knowing anything about working cockers and asked a question that I honestly didnt know the answer to !
You may think I am being dumb - I am just being honest & curious

[*Jay*]

Joules was referring to the fact that you said your lab was un-cocked rather than un-docked

[Silver Surfer (indiesnan)]

Joules was referring to the fact that you said your lab was un-cocked rather than un-docked

 

[suzieq]

just though i'd add my experience
Zak is a working cocker and was undocked when we bought him. Although we don't work him his natural instincts are very strong and he loves nothing more than to flush pheasants, chase rabbits etc through any sort of undergrowth.
When he was about two he started to damage the end of his tail quite badly.It really is awful to see your boy with a bleeding tail. He obviously didn't notice the pain until afterwards.
After several visits to the vets we were told that he would have to have part of his tail amputated. It was a very traumatic time for Zak and for us. He was on lead walks for a long time to let the amputation site heal properly and the hair to grow back.His tail is now just a bit shorter than a working dock
Thankfully he made a full recovery and 3 years later he chases to his hearts content and has never had any more damage 
Strider is also a working cocker. He has a working dock, goes in exactly the same undergrowth as Zak, in fact probably even thicker stuff and has never had any tail damage.

sue,zak and strider

[happydog]

Sorry, maybe I am being ridiculously dense here, but why is only the top thrid of a working cockers tail docked??   Surely the whole tail has as much chance of getting injured??

Not so. The vertebrae at the end of a dogs tail are much smaller and weaker than at the body end. The end of a tail is much more likely to be damaged by getting caught. Workers tails are only docked to avoid damage not for fashion. A dog needs it's tail for balance, for communication and for swishing flies away. Hence there is no need to completely dock a workers tail. Having said that the length of dock of a workers tail does seem to vary between different parts of the country. Fern has a fairly short dock, as had all our springers.

I wondered if anyone could explain to me why a working cocker has a long dock and a show cocker has a short one. 
It has always puzzled me as logically it would make more sense for it to be the other way round. 

The former as above,  the latter I suspect pure fashion and Kennel club standards (although I stand to be corrected on this as I have never been involved in showing apart from when I was very young.)

I confess to knowing nothing at all about working cockers however, we had a labrador in our family who was a gun dog and of course he was un-cocked - what is the difference ?
I hope not to get a back lash for this - I simply dont understand 

I presume you mean un docked   A labradors tail is not docked for two main reasons. 1. In the main labradors are used for retrieving shot game in the open, or in light undergrowth. They are generally not used for flushing out game or for retrieving from thick undergrowth, unlike cockers and springers who have a natural instinct for this and were indeed bred for it. 2. A labradors coat is smooth and less likely to sustain damage by being caught on brambles if it was used for flushing. It is also generally much thicker and stronger. The feathers on a cocker or springers tail mean it is far more vulnerable to being caught and torn. The working speed of spaniels is also generally much faster. If you think of the way they twist and turn when the nose flaps are open and transfer that movement into a thicket of blackthorn, brambles, and possibly barbed wire you can see how easily damage could occur to an undocked spaniel tail. working cockers have been selectively bred for, amongst other things, a smoother coat for this very reason.

[Jane S]

This is slightly off topic (again  ) but I wondered if anyone could explain to me why a working cocker has a long dock and a show cocker has a short one. 

Whilst some Cockers (show type) are docked way too short, not all are but they look a lot shorter because all the hair is trimmed off. I see a lot of Working Cockers and Springers where we live and it's noticeable that their length of dock varies quite a bit but they always look longer due to the fact that there is often 2-3 inches or more of hair hanging off the end One of our show dogs has a longish dock and if I left his tail untrimmed, he would look like most of the working-type Spaniels round here I also think that since it become unlawful for breeders to dock their own puppies, you see many more cases of Cockers being docked too short as not all vets are experienced in appropriate tail lengths for particular breeds Interestingly, I was looking in one of my old books the other day and there are photos of old Field Trial Champions like Rivington Simon and they did not have long docks so maybe this is something which has changed over time.

[Petra]

Happydog - that explains it perfectly, so thank you!!!

I naively thought that show cockers were also docked in case they hurt their tails during 'working', but of course, the reason they are docked is for fashion only...

I agree a dog needs it's tail for balance, direction etc, so the reason for only taking the tip off is now clear to me - Thanks!!

So, will get off the tall fence and say that I can see the reason for docking workers, but am still totally and completely against docking show cockers for fashion!

[Joules]

Joules was referring to the fact that you said your lab was un-cocked rather than un-docked

Exactly!