Author Topic: Considering breeding - Tests!  (Read 5274 times)

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Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Considering breeding - Tests!
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2012, 05:17:57 PM »
As temperament - gentle and affectionate, yet full of life and exhuberant - are part of the standard I would think a champion in the breed would probably make an ideal pet. Especially as, in addition to this, he/ she would need to have a solid temperament to succeed as a show dog.
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline Brimbeck(Dyllan)

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Re: Considering breeding - Tests!
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2012, 05:26:00 PM »
My show dog has his temperament tested everytime he enters the ring, he allows many many different people to go over him, he spends time in close quarters with a large number of other entire male dogs and behaves in an impeccable manor. So I have to disagree shown dogs do have their temperments tested.

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Offline Pip895

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Re: Considering breeding - Tests!
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2012, 05:40:44 PM »
I stand corrected - maybee all show champs do make wonderfull pets - I admit I know very little about showing. :blink:

My dog is a working cocker and I am on a bit firmer ground when I say not all FTCH dogs make good pets.  I am going to be controversial here and say that a FTCH dog -  that is temperamentally unsuitable to live in a home as a pet, however good in the field should not be bread from.  Because even with endorsements and selective homing somewhere down the line there is going to be heartbreak. :-\

Offline Nicola

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Re: Considering breeding - Tests!
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2012, 05:57:21 PM »
I think everyone who  breeds, should believe they are bettering the breed – of course everyone has a slightly different idea of what that means. ;)  
For Nicola I think it means a dog with the potential to make FTCH, for me it is to be a good family pet.  However we may not be as diametrically opposed as that might appear – families are very variable – a working cocker family should be an active one – they may hunt, do agility or fly-ball or they may just want an active dog and enjoy walking and cycling in areas suitable for exercising a dog off lead.
  
A working cocker should be able to work - they should have the attributes that the breed is known for – energy, enthusiasm, intelligence,  good retrieve, quiet in the field etc.  I also think they should conform broadly to the breed standard in size and shape.  Above all, of course,  they should have a great temperament and be healthy.   If I didn’t believe Saffi was all of this I wouldn’t be proposing breeding from her. :D

As my name has been mentioned I would say that my view is not purely based on producing FTCh dogs, although that obviously means that they are judged and proven objectively at the highest level. What I see as bettering the breed is using the best examples of the breed you can and the only way you can know that - as opposed to just thinking that your own dog is lovely, because very few people don't think that - is to have them compared against their peers either in field trials or by working them in the field to prove that they are true to type and fit for purpose.

You may believe that your dog is a great example but everyone loves their own dog, and as you've said yourself, you're not an unbiased, objective judge. You have no way of actually knowing how good an example of the breed she really is unless she is proven to be so either in competitions or in the field. Everyone thinks their own dog is the best ever but that is not an objective view of the dog's quality. To truly improve the breed there must be the aim of producing dogs that are objectively proven as being both true to type and fit for purpose, if this is done properly it also encompasses health and temperament. These requirements are not and should not be mutually exclusive.

Being a nice pet dog is not enough to warrant breeding yet more puppies in a hugely overcrowded market; most dogs are great pets and their owners think they're the best dog ever, but it doesn't mean that they are objectively an exceptional dog or that they should be bred from. Perhaps if we were in a situation where there was a shortage of nice pet dogs out there but that is hardly the case, this country is inundated with pet dogs. There is unfortunately a glut of indifferent quality working Cockers being bred and sold as pets at the moment, with the corresponding sharp increase in them appearing in rescues.

I think success in the show ring is also a rather poor selector of dogs or for that matter in working lines FTCH trials as the key criteria for both types of dog should be temperament & health neither of which are adequately tested in those environments.

An unhealthy dog of poor temperament is not going to get far in the show ring, in field trials or in the shooting field where dogs have to travel (in the beating wagon) and work hard for full days at a time in very close proximity to lots of people and other dogs.  

   
I think in any case in deciding to breed, the bar should be set a lot higher for a Dog than a Bitch – a dog can sire dozens of litters – a breeding bitch should have only between 1 and 4.  

As the owner a bitch who so much time and effort has gone into to prove her quality and that she is a truly outstanding example of her breed I find that an incredibly depressing view :-\  Every litter is important regardless of how many of them there are, and Caoimhe's contribution is every bit as important as the stud dog's.  

It's not just a choice between an out and out trialling dog or an unproven pet either - there are (thankfully) good breeders out there producing dogs that are proven as true to type and fit for purpose in the working field who have the proven stamina, steadiness, biddability and working ability but don't quite have the drive and pace of a trialling dog. In an ideal world the majority of dogs being bred would be like this, neither FT competitors nor just pets, but working dogs of proven quality and type with some trialling blood to keep the objective judgement there and maintain the drive and trainability.  

Personally, I feel that only working cockers who actually 'work' should be bred from.
Yes, working cockers 'can' make wonderful pets in the right home (I have two) but my girls were bred from strong actual working/trailing lines.  I feel this breeding has given them the biddability that is so great. Their breeder has spent a life time working his dogs and breeding for this trait.
I feel that if 'pet' working cockers are bred to other 'pet' working cockers then the very essence of the breed is being diluted.
I have seen a lot of 'pet' bred working cockers who have all the drive of their breed but have none of the biddability.  >:(

Very good post and I completely agree with all of it.
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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Offline Jane S

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Re: Considering breeding - Tests!
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2012, 06:22:59 PM »
I stand corrected - maybee all show champs do make wonderfull pets - I admit I know very little about showing. :blink:

We have bred a number of top show winners and I can assure you all have been fantastic pets because showing is just a small part of their lives, the rest of the time they are just normal dogs doing the normal things all Cockers do.

Quote
My dog is a working cocker and I am on a bit firmer ground when I say not all FTCH dogs make good pets.  I am going to be controversial here and say that a FTCH dog -  that is temperamentally unsuitable to live in a home as a pet, however good in the field should not be bread from.  Because even with endorsements and selective homing somewhere down the line there is going to be heartbreak. :-\

So are you suggesting that Field Trial competition of any kind should be banned? Because that would be the end result of banning all Field Trial Champions (and presumably FT Winners) from being bred from. Seems not just a contraversial view but ever so slightly bonkers (sorry ph34r) - you don't ban an activity just because somewhere down the line a dog ends up in the wrong home. Dogs end up in the wrong homes all the time for any number of reasons - if you do breed a litter, you may find out the hard way that this is the case for one of your own puppies as not all homes turn out the way you expect no matter how good your vetting system.

Jane

Offline HeatherandBenjy

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Re: Considering breeding - Tests!
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2012, 08:17:59 PM »

If you ain't going to health test, don't put the genes out there and leave it for others to clean up!!  

I too wasn't going to comment, but this struck a chord. As someone who is very involved in spaniel rescue, I can't tell you how many times dogs are handed in to rescue with health problems. I currently live with six 'wonky' rescues, three of whom have genetically inherited defects.

I won't go into whether I think you should breed or not, but if you do, please do all the health tests that you can, not one of the three dogs that I have here with problems will make old bones, I can't tell you how it makes me feel that their problems were potentially avoidable.  :-\
Heather, Buddy, Archie, Fizzy, Bruno and Amber!

Offline PennyB

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Re: Considering breeding - Tests!
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2012, 08:37:04 PM »
I think I am going into it with my eyes open!....

I don't think so...read all the threads on breeding, wanting to keep a puppy is not a good enough reason. What about all the others?

have to agree with Lyn - there are plenty of nice 'pet' working cockers out there already and in this financial climate I don't think its right to breed to get a pup.  I wouldn't breed from a dog unless they are proven in the field or at least have reached a high level in agility or flyball.

However, you've probably already decided to go ahead and whatever we say won't sway that.

You've not mentioned hip scoring.

If you haven't already bought it, buy 'the Book of the Bitch' and check out what can go wrong with whelping.



I agree we got a litter of 6 sprockers handed into us age 10 weeks (the guy worked his dogs as well) before christmas along with a few other litters. One woman bred her bull mastiff and she had 14 pups (2 died) and ended up having to get a rescue to take 10 of them off her
Friends of Hailey Park
Four Paws Animal Rescue (South Wales)

Cockers are just hooligans in cute clothing!

Offline Pip895

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Re: Considering breeding - Tests!
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2012, 09:26:04 PM »
My dog is a working cocker and I am on a bit firmer ground when I say not all FTCH dogs make good pets.  I am going to be controversial here and say that a FTCH dog -  that is temperamentally unsuitable to live in a home as a pet, however good in the field should not be bread from.  Because even with endorsements and selective homing somewhere down the line there is going to be heartbreak. :-\

So are you suggesting that Field Trial competition of any kind should be banned?

NO - I am not suggesting any such thing!!!!  :o - There are a few - or seem to be - ( I am going on hearsay here - I have never met one) some champion dogs that are so high drive as to be unsuitable as pets.  If such dogs/lines do exist - then in my opinion they shouldn't be breed from - even if they are champions - that's all I am saying.  








Offline Danni and Freya

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Re: Considering breeding - Tests!
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2012, 09:35:35 PM »
Don't get this Pip895  :dunno: these dogs are primarily bred to work. A champion dog with high drive is exactly what is needed to continue the job they are bred to do! How ridiculous to say they shouldn't be bred from  :huh:

Offline Pip895

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Re: Considering breeding - Tests!
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2012, 09:47:09 PM »
Don't get this Pip895  :dunno: these dogs are primarily bred to work. A champion dog with high drive is exactly what is needed to continue the job they are bred to do! How ridiculous to say they shouldn't be bred from  :huh:

A good working dog - even a ftch should still be capable of being a good pet - most are.  I am talking about dogs that are not temprementaly sound.  Perhaps they dont exist - Its just that I have read elsware that they are arround.  Lines you wouldnt want in a pet dog.

Offline Pip895

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Re: Considering breeding - Tests!
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2012, 09:51:39 PM »
Whilst I have the attention of the working brigade - :005:- what are your feelings on the requirement to test for FN in a pure working line dog?

Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Considering breeding - Tests!
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2012, 09:55:16 PM »
As far as I am aware most ftch dogs are kenelled. They are not house pets. Much like working sheepdogs. They are bred to do a job.
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline Pip895

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Re: Considering breeding - Tests!
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2012, 10:03:45 PM »
As far as I am aware most ftch dogs are kenelled. They are not house pets. Much like working sheepdogs. They are bred to do a job.

I wasn't sure if that was still the case - what happens to them once they are to old to trial? :-\

Offline Cayley

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Re: Considering breeding - Tests!
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2012, 10:11:18 PM »
It is so stressfull breeding a litter, finding homes for them is so hard as you have to have about 5 enquiries to get one suitable person. I don't know if you're aware but for every quarter of the BRS there are at least 1000 litters  :-\.
Cayley.

Offline Pip895

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Re: Considering breeding - Tests!
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2012, 10:19:56 PM »
It is so stressfull breeding a litter, finding homes for them is so hard as you have to have about 5 enquiries to get one suitable person. I don't know if you're aware but for every quarter of the BRS there are at least 1000 litters  :-\.

Out of interest does anyone know what percentage of these litters are from fully health tested parents?  I guess it is much better in show lines - in working types my perusal of the adds would suggest a woefully low percentage - just wondered if there were any stats on it?