working cockers/show cockers

[Jane S]

What I don't understand is why they haven't been split into two distinct breeds within the Kennel Club, since the working cockers don't fit the current cocker spaniel breed standard.

I totally agree. They are in my opinion, totally different.

I don't agree - they're genetically Cocker Spaniels whether show/working and it would be totally impractical to attempt to separate the registrations when so many puppies born have mixed lines either recently or further back. Don't forget that one of the most famous FT Champion Cockers of all time was of mixed show and working breeding (Speckle of Ardoon)

I think would-be puppy buyers just have to get used to doing as much research as they possibly can to identify whether the litters they are considering are the type they want. After all, we're all used to spending hours researching holidays, household appliances, cars etc - to me a puppy is so much more important than those things and merits just as much if not more careful research What's a few emails or phone calls compared to the many years your Cocker will hopefully spend as part of your family?

[Sasha B]

I have a working cocker who is very happy as a family pet, although I do have to say I make sure that she gets approx 3 hours off lead walks each day some where she can look for scents safely. I also I have to admit when we chose her she was the quietest and most laid back of the litter and am not sure that she would have made it as a working dog. I have done agility with her which she adores and barks her way around the course with excitement but my reason for doing it as opposed to gundog training was quite simply because it was easier to find, cost less and was less time consuming.

I adore the fact that she is bright and loves her games anything from hiding treats around the house to asking her to collect specific toys and bring them to me, wouldn't change anything for the world.  

[Bluebell]

Just a question to those on this thread that associate working cockers  with agility - why not use a working cocker for the purpose it was created ie as a working gundog?

I wonder if many find agility a much easier hobby/past time to participate in    'Working' a dog can seem more of a lifestyle choice, rather than agility, which appears to be more of a hobby 
Only one of my dogs is a 'working' dog, by parentage, and nearly nine years ago when I got him, finding a good gundog trainer, who used positive, reward based methods, was impossible.
I also think that some people simply don't like the idea of hunting and all it entails, so agility is  fun and stimulating for both dog and owner 

[lindseyp]

There have always been cocker spaniels in my family - (my parents had cockers before they had me - and I'm not confessing to how many years ago THAT was!!!!), but they have all been the "show" type. Suddenly (?) everyone from my niece to the Duchess of Cambridge seems to be owning working cockers. I saw my first worker 5 years ago - and now wonder  why they have become so popular - are the number of show cockers in decline? Apart from being more energetic and having longer legs, is there any other fundamental difference? I talked to a chap the other day who had a cross between a show and a worker.........what is happening to our traditional cocker spaniel ?

I would have to argue that IMO, Working Cocker Spaniels are more a true example of cocker than the show type - the huge range of 'fashionable' colour choices available with profuse, heavy coats, some breed to get a specific size & dare I say it, numerous health issues, all supplied by breeders, happy to fulfill & encourage the 'I want' market  for a 'more unique Cocker than anyone elses', is what's happening to the traditional show type & has changed 'them' over the years    

Of course there are good breeders who do breed to meet breed standard & to keep the breed as it should be   but there are far many more that don't 

With informative places such as this forum, the huge increase in variety of media channels on our TV's & 'celebrities' private lives being 'over exposed' for all to see, I guess people see the working cocker as a 'new creation' when it couldn't be futher from the truth. Being a 'working' dog if you didn't frequent the places it would be working in, you'd be unlikely to of seen them       

[Emilyoliver]

Just a question to those on this thread that associate working cockers  with agility - why not use a working cocker for the purpose it was created ie as a working gundog?

I wonder if many find agility a much easier hobby/past time to participate in    'Working' a dog can seem more of a lifestyle choice, rather than agility, which appears to be more of a hobby  
Only one of my dogs is a 'working' dog, by parentage, and nearly nine years ago when I got him, finding a good gundog trainer, who used positive, reward based methods, was impossible.

I also think that some people simply don't like the idea of hunting and all it entails, so agility is  fun and stimulating for both dog and owner  

I agree with this. Having researched working cockers and having spoken to breeders who work their dogs, they agreed that it can be difficult to join a shoot. You certainly can't just 'turn up' (which is possible at many training clubs that offer agility).  Fun agility is probably the easier option (although the quality of tuition is frighteningly varied).

I do agility with my show type who has been described as very 'worky' in attitude by a number of top trainers. He is very driven, and is such fun to work with. Unfortunately, as much as I love the look of show types (have had them since a child), the drive cannot be guaranteed. As I have always trained/ worked my dogs in obedience, working trials, tracking or agility I would like a dog who is keen to 'do stuff'. The worker offers the cocker personality together with the 'worky' attitude. I do wonder though, as far as agility is concerned, whether many people see working cockers excelling in this sport and automatically assume that getting one affords them a ticket to success (much like border collies and wsd's).

[praia]

Neither show or working type Cockers are "traditional Cockers."  Traditional Cockers were a shooting companion for the gentry, not a working machine bred for competitive field trialing.  Neither were they originally heavily coated, heavier boned, or lacking in working drive as many show type Cockers are these days.  In my opinion, BOTH types of breeders are very guilty for the separation in type in this breed.

Even though working type breeders are primarily concerned about breeding for biddability and working drive, they should also consider breeding to the standard.  The breed standard is about maintaining structural stability and maintaining type.  You want a Cocker that can and will move like a Cocker, and you want a Cocker that actually looks like a Cocker, which most working Cockers fail to do these days.

Worker or show, both are Cockers and both are amazing little dogs.  There are plenty of gun dog breeds that have absolutely no split in show or working type and it would be wonderful to see that one day in this breed, though perhaps they are too far gone for that to ever be reality? It seems as if the best you can hope for is finding a working breeder that actually strives to breed to the standard and retain type or find a show breeder that strives to breed for a dog that is still capable and still eager to do what the breed was originally bred for. Unfortunately, both situations are difficult to come by these days, though it seems to be far easier to find a show breeder that also works their Cockers and titles them in the field in some parts of the world than others.

As for separating the two, there is no point since they are both Cocker Spaniels.  Field Spaniels are a completely different breed with a completely different working function. 

Personally, I think it's sad to see how working Cockers have exploded in the pet market.  I completely agree that the quality in breeding of these dogs has gone down, because of the boom in interest in mere "pets."

[Helen]

Personally, I think it's sad to see how working Cockers have exploded in the pet market.  I completely agree that the quality in breeding of these dogs has gone down, because of the boom in interest in mere "pets."

yes I agree - and with people breeding from their nice 'pet's' it's only going to get worse 

I think there'll be 3 strains eventually working, show, and pet.

I also I have to admit when we chose her she was the quietest and most laid back of the litter and am not sure that she would have made it as a working dog.

,

If you haven't done any gundog training with her then you'll never know what her working capabilities were 

[karen488]

What about if new litters could (optionally) be registered working or show. And maybe require a certain no. Of ftch or show champions to acquire the show or working titles? Would that not encourage breeders to breed one or the other and make a clear statement to owners??

[Jane S]

What about if new litters could (optionally) be registered working or show. And maybe require a certain no. Of ftch or show champions to acquire the show or working titles? Would that not encourage breeders to breed one or the other and make a clear statement to owners??

I'm afraid that could never work in practice - you couldn't decide on type according to the number of champions in a pedigree (remember only a small percentage of dogs ever achieve a FT or Sh Ch title)

If breeders are not upfront and honest about which type they are breeding from the start, then avoid them - it's as simple as that really. Good breeders already make it very clear which type they have and are only too willing to answer questions from people interested in their puppies.

[Emilyoliver]

It is just a shame that drive/function has been compromised in the show type, and conformation/type in the worker.

[Jane S]

It is just a shame that drive/function has been compromised in the show type, and conformation/type in the worker.

It depends what you want in a dog though doesn't it? There are still show type Cockers who can work (in they way they were originally intended to work, although of course they could never compete at Field Trial level) but I personally wouldn't want to own a high drive dog (no offence to those that do) so show type dogs suit me and my lifestyle.

As has always happened over the centuries, breeds have been selectively bred to suit those that own them and the purposes they want them for Even within the two strains of Cocker, there are many different types - a show type puppy from a show breeder will often look quite different to one produced by a commercial breeder since their aims are quite different. The same could be said for working cockers - there is no uniformity of type there, they come in all different shapes and sizes And soon as others have said, there will be a third "pet" type of working Cocker bred by those with no interest in working.

[SkyeandOllie]

I have 2 workers,  both from trialing breeding.  I compete in agility and flyball, they also do canicross and we do some gundog stuff like stops to the whistle, retrieves etc.They love this and I know they would both probably be good working dogs but its not something that is available like agility and flyball, saying that we are hopefully off in September for a weekend of gundog training with a well known trainer up here in Scotland   Hopefully we can stop Ollie barking with excitement!

I don't think we will see a split of the 2 strains by the KC,  it would be too hard to do. I think people who buy puppies need to be more aware of the 2 strains and breeders more honest. People who end up with the oposite of what they were looking for have either not done enough research either on the breed or the breeders dog and the breeder hasn't been honest or forecoming with information.

[spaniel04]

we are hopefully off in September for a weekend of gundog training with a well known trainer up here in Scotland   Hopefully we can stop Ollie barking with excitement!

 

Ooooh, who will you be training with? Edward Martin, David Lisset .....?? 

[SkyeandOllie]

Charlie at Mordor Gundogs.  Not confirmed yet but fingers crossed!

[Nicola]

Charlie at Mordor Gundogs.  Not confirmed yet but fingers crossed!

He's Rodaidh's breeder, he doesn't have Ro's mum any more but his dad Reiver is still there as far as I know.