working cockers/show cockers

[praia]

It is just a shame that drive/function has been compromised in the show type, and conformation/type in the worker.

Not necessarily.  There are still some breeders who strive to produce dogs of correct conformation, type, and drive.  Unfortunately, they are harder to locate as most breeders for both types these seem to emphasize some aspects of the breed over others.  A truly great breeder with great stock is one who aims to produce a complete package - a beautiful, healthy, and capable gun dog.  There are some working Cockers that are beautiful examples of the breed and there are show type breeders that work and title their dogs in the field.  It's true that they'll never be field trial champions, but very few working Cockers are anyway, and field trailing is not the traditional work of the traditional Cocker either.

I think there would be less confusion over workers and show types if people would simply do their research prior to purchasing a dog.  There have been quite a few times on here that you read of people not even being aware of the two types until they've purchased the wrong type they originally desired.  It's the responsibility of the buyer to research the breed, research the pedigree of the sire and dam, and question the breeder about their breeding practices and philosophy.  A good breeder of quality dogs has nothing to hide and just a little time and effort spent researching and networking with Cockers owners and breeders will reveal the quality of the lines. 

[Toni-UK]

I think the statement that there will be a "pet" strain is very true.

Months and months back when Kate Middleton was pictured with Lupo,there were a few groans on here saying how it would start a trend and there would be lots of poor working cockers ending up in rescue after unsuspecting(or ignorant)owners didn't know what they were letting themselves in for.

I thought to myself,that wont happen.........well i believe it has  

Although obviously all new owners are welcome and i mean no disrespect (before i get jumped on) i have to say since joining COL 5 years ago,IMHO this year is the most new working cocker owners i have ever noticed joining the forum.

Coincidence or the Kate effect ?

Maybe in time unless you go to a highly reputable breeder these "pet" workers genetics will have been so diluted down they wont be such a hard wired working breed iyswim.

[karen488]

What about if new litters could (optionally) be registered working or show. And maybe require a certain no. Of ftch or show champions to acquire the show or working titles? Would that not encourage breeders to breed one or the other and make a clear statement to owners??

I'm afraid that could never work in practice - you couldn't decide on type according to the number of champions in a pedigree (remember only a small percentage of dogs ever achieve a FT or Sh Ch title)

If breeders are not upfront and honest about which type they are breeding from the start, then avoid them - it's as simple as that really. Good breeders already make it very clear which type they have and are only too willing to answer questions from people interested in their puppies.

I agree that good breeders do inform but don't understand why this wouldn't work. A cocker could be registered as a cocker, a working cocker or a show cocker. As the show cocker strain were shown they would enhance the conformity of show cockers and as workers competed the same. Surely this would separate true breeders from careless ones

[Emilyoliver]

What about if new litters could (optionally) be registered working or show. And maybe require a certain no. Of ftch or show champions to acquire the show or working titles? Would that not encourage breeders to breed one or the other and make a clear statement to owners??

I'm afraid that could never work in practice - you couldn't decide on type according to the number of champions in a pedigree (remember only a small percentage of dogs ever achieve a FT or Sh Ch title

If breeders are not upfront and honest about which type they are breeding from the start, then avoid them - it's as simple as that really. Good breeders already make it very clear which type they have and are only too willing to answer questions from people interested in their puppies.

I agree that good breeders do inform but don't understand why this wouldn't work. A cocker could be registered as a cocker, a working cocker or a show cocker. As the show cocker strain were shown they would
enhance the conformity of show cockers and as workers competed the same. Surely this would separate true breeders from careless ones

Don't think so. Many working cocker litters are advertised as having 30+ FTCH in pedigrees. This is often due to a popular stud dog having been used. The dam may just be a 'pet' with some well known lines a couple of generations back. So proper planning of a litter combining carefully chosen lines to produce working, quality dogs has quite often not been done. Similarly with show type breeders. Lots of SH CH some generations back does not necessarily mean carefully bred litters. I personally look for similar 'type' within kennels as this suggests breeders have a specific goal when breeding, and specifically select dogs to include in their breeding programme that achieve these goals. Achieving a type consistently, takes enormous skill
and dedication - far more than breeding two dogs with lots of champions in their pedigrees.

[rubytuesday007]

If the kc acknowledged two different types of cocker, then what  would become of the cockers who are mixed be it immediately or further back within there generation?

[Jane S]

I think there would be less confusion over workers and show types if people would simply do their research prior to purchasing a dog.  There have been quite a few times on here that you read of people not even being aware of the two types until they've purchased the wrong type they originally desired.  It's the responsibility of the buyer to research the breed, research the pedigree of the sire and dam, and question the breeder about their breeding practices and philosophy.  A good breeder of quality dogs has nothing to hide and just a little time and effort spent researching and networking with Cockers owners and breeders will reveal the quality of the lines. 

Quite agree.

I'm not sure if people just don't want to do this research or they're just not aware they should be doing it I'm also curious what kind of breeders people are contacting who don't make it clear what strain they're breeding? Out of curiosity, I looked at the Champdogs litter listings for Cockers today and the vast majority of ads all stated what type the puppies were. Admittedly this is one of the better sites for breeder ads unlike some of the dreadful free-ad pet sites but it's a big change from even just a few years ago where it was rare to see any mention of "show type" or "working type" in adverts.

[karendorman13]

I done 6 months research before committing to a show type cocker. I chose the show type as it suited our lifestyle more than the working type. If my other dog had been a couple of years younger I would have considered a working type but she cant do long walks now and I would have felt guilty not taking her out too, because she can hear her lead getting picked up at 100 yards

[praia]

What about if new litters could (optionally) be registered working or show. And maybe require a certain no. Of ftch or show champions to acquire the show or working titles? Would that not encourage breeders to breed one or the other and make a clear statement to owners??

I'm afraid that could never work in practice - you couldn't decide on type according to the number of champions in a pedigree (remember only a small percentage of dogs ever achieve a FT or Sh Ch title

If breeders are not upfront and honest about which type they are breeding from the start, then avoid them - it's as simple as that really. Good breeders already make it very clear which type they have and are only too willing to answer questions from people interested in their puppies.

I agree that good breeders do inform but don't understand why this wouldn't work. A cocker could be registered as a cocker, a working cocker or a show cocker. As the show cocker strain were shown they would
enhance the conformity of show cockers and as workers competed the same. Surely this would separate true breeders from careless ones

Don't think so. Many working cocker litters are advertised as having 30+ FTCH in pedigrees. This is often due to a popular stud dog having been used. The dam may just be a 'pet' with some well known lines a couple of generations back. So proper planning of a litter combining carefully chosen lines to produce working, quality dogs has quite often not been done. Similarly with show type breeders. Lots of SH CH some generations back does not necessarily mean carefully bred litters. I personally look for similar 'type' within kennels as this suggests breeders have a specific goal when breeding, and specifically select dogs to include in their breeding programme that achieve these goals. Achieving a type consistently, takes enormous skill
and dedication - far more than breeding two dogs with lots of champions in their pedigrees.

Very true.  Just because you're breeding two show types together doesn't necessarily mean that they will reliably produce dogs of correct conformation and type, and the same goes for working Cockers.   Just because a dog may have some champions 3, 4, or 5 generations back doesn't mean that the dog itself will be of the same caliber and quality as its titled predecessors. You can only enhance conformity by only breeding dogs that conform to a standard.  This is why it's important that buyers support breeders that evaluate their breeding stock through conformation or working tests.

Many pet quality dogs from pet breeders have the same names on their pedigrees as exceptionally well-bred dogs if you go back far enough... Many breeders try to be deceptive and advertise "of champion lines."  Go back far enough and every dog will have a champion in its pedigree, but that doesn't prove the breeding quality of the sire or dam and the puppies they produce.

Simply registering a dog doesn't separate true breeders from careless ones. Breeding only show types or breeding only workers doesn't differentiate between the two either.  There are many factors that make a good breeder and the KC can only guarantee so much, which is where the personal responsibility of the buyer needs to come into play.  Even if the KC makes breeders inform buyers of which type they are producing (which a good breeder would do anyway), that in no way proves the worth of the breeding stock and the quality of the pups.  There are many pet bred Cockers that come from health tested stock that lack proper conformation, because their breeders never cared about breeding to conform to the standard.  The breeders were responsible in that they probably selected dogs of good temperament and good health, but how true to the breed are they if they don't strive to reliably produce dogs of correct conformation and/or working drive?  At least for me, this is what separates a reputable breeder truly devoted to the breed, from an unexceptional breeder.

[Rolo12]

I researched for over a year before getting our working cocker pup and was fully aware of both types and which one was best for us.

I dont think just because Kate and Will have a working cocker that everyone will rush out and get one. I didnt even know, i thought Lupo was show type!

I genuinely believe that if you are a responsible dog owner and have the time and comittment and energy to give then it doesnt matter which type you go for. Both make great pets!

[SkyeandOllie]

I researched for over a year before getting our working cocker pup and was fully aware of both types and which one was best for us.

I dont think just because Kate and Will have a working cocker that everyone will rush out and get one. I didnt even know, i thought Lupo was show type!

I genuinely believe that if you are a responsible dog owner and have the time and comittment and energy to give then it doesnt matter which type you go for. Both make great pets!

There has been many working cockers advertised as 'Like Will and Kates' so I'd think they would have increased frot he likes of puppy farmers and BYB looking for a fast buck. 

As long as the research has been done and people know they can defiantely be able to put the work in then yes both can make good pets, however I know if my boy went to a 'pet' home (I say pet home as in a walk round the park of a morning and an evening) he would be a nightmare and would have problably ended up in rescue, He has incredible drive, needs to be busy and wouldn't be a happy contented dog at home if his brain wasn't worked in agility, flyball or gundog work. Thankfully this wouldn't happen as both my dogs are from a trialing breeder who wont sell to pet only homes.

[jaybee]

In our area we bump into far more working cockers than show cockers, and most of these are pups/young dogs. We stop and talk to most people, and one owner obviously hadn't done her research at all and didn't know she had a working cocker. She used to say how she couldn't wait for her dogs ears to grow long like Bingleys, and get a long coat. She would also ask us how bingley behaved at home, as her pup (only a few weeks younger than Bingley) was very destructive in the home. When i mentioned that i thought her pup was a worker and probably needed more mental stimulation, she looked at me aghast. Her mood over a few weeks seemed to get worse, we saw her less often and now we've not seen her for a few weeks. So i don't know what happened there 

Unfortunately, there will always be owners who don't do enough of the right research before making such a huge commitment. We considered a worker, but I knew, deep down, that we couldn't provide the right lifestyle for a working type, particularly if the dog was particularly driven. It's very easy I think, in the first flushes of dog ownership, to be convinced you will always do anything needed to provide a certain life for a particular kind of dog. Unfortunately life gets in the way of a lot of things, so we made the commitment to a show cocker, knowing that it was far more likely we could provide a suitable lifestyle long term for him than the lifestyle required by a worker.

[SkyeandOllie]

Charlie at Mordor Gundogs.  Not confirmed yet but fingers crossed!

He's Rodaidh's breeder, he doesn't have Ro's mum any more but his dad Reiver is still there as far as I know.

Seems to know his stuff, Im looking forward to it, if it happens!!

[penfold]

Charlie at Mordor Gundogs.  Not confirmed yet but fingers crossed!

He's Rodaidh's breeder, he doesn't have Ro's mum any more but his dad Reiver is still there as far as I know.

Seems to know his stuff, Im looking forward to it, if it happens!!

Is that the one organised through PGR?

[SkyeandOllie]

Charlie at Mordor Gundogs.  Not confirmed yet but fingers crossed!

He's Rodaidh's breeder, he doesn't have Ro's mum any more but his dad Reiver is still there as far as I know.

Seems to know his stuff, Im looking forward to it, if it happens!!

Is that the one organised through PGR?

It is,  not sure Im going anymore though,  not heard back!

[JohnW]

Just a question to those on this thread that associate working cockers  with agility - why not use a working cocker for the purpose it was created ie as a working gundog?

Isn't it called evolution? Border Collies are herding dogs and were not originally meant for agility, Working cocker's make fantastic gundogs but can also make a fantastic competitive partner on the agility field, but they have proven they can be wonderful dogs that can be accomplished in alot of NON working fields if trained and handled correctly, Do hearing dogs for the deaf not breed them for a non gundog specific job? The prison and police service now have breeding programs for sniffer dogs while similar work it's still not out in the fields working in the traditional sense. While agility is a hobby for most people that compete there is also alot of very serious training and handling techniques involved that can take years to to master for handler and dogs alike. My suggestion would be to anyone who is curious to know what agility is all about I would say go to a Champ Show and watch some of the top cocker handlersaswell as top handlers from who have other breeds running their dogs you might be impressed. I have done both working and agility and for me watching the handling skills of the top agility handlers is something special.