Working cocker pup - minefield

[black taz]

After spending the last two weeks researching breeders for a working cocker pup, I have come to the conclusion it's going to be a long job!

Finding a health tested bitch not already sold seems impossible.  I have my name on two waiting lists of two excellent breeders though. 

Lots of breeders have working dogs (rather than pet) and many seem to insist that hip scoring is not necessary, and more prevailing in show cockers.

Have come across a number that are home bred.  Questions about health testing have resulted in, yes they have been to the vets, when pushed further to ask about hips/eye, the response was, the vet checked and they don't have sticky or cloudy eyes, and their hips don't - help!   £600+ as well. 

[Nicola]

Lots of breeders have working dogs

If they're breeding working Cockers they should have otherwise it's pet breeding from dogs of unproven type and quality. A good breeder will prove their dogs are worth breeding from in some discipline - for me it would preferably be actual working but nowadays there are a lot of 'agility' breeders too. Finding a fully health tested working Cocker is difficult but not impossible, but I would expect to have to go on a waiting list and wait possibly quite some time for a pup from any really good breeder. Two weeks is not long; when I bought Caoimhe I looked for about 9 months and viewed more than 10 litters/older pups before I found her.

Just a reminder to please give breeder recommendations via PM.

[black taz]

I know that it is early days.  I was just surprised how much more difficult it was to find health tested workers than show.  I have found another this evening, but she only tests for PRA.  I have seen the pedigree of the stud and it is full of Field champions.  Just wondering what your opinion of hip testing is?

[Helen]

why would you want a working cocker with a pedigree full of FTCH as a Pet?

This is one of the biggest mistakes you could make with a working cocker - a true field trial pup is a nightmare unless you're prepared for such a wired, high drive pup and can fully channel it's energies 

[dawn]

Agree with Helen, after struggling with worker/show cross puppy, with both his energy levels and mental stimulation required, be careful. A gundog trainer once described Henry as the Ferrari of working cockers! So glad puppyhood is over!

[Emilyoliver]

Fair point, however I think Black Taz does competitive agility and has a working strain lab that she's done gundog training with. 

My pup has lots of FT CH in his pedigree, and although he's very active, he's also very responsive to training, and quick to learn.  'Pet bred' workers I would think might be the real danger as less thought has gone into the ultimate purpose for the puppies and you could very well end up with a less biddable, manic, uncontrollable dog.

[vixen]

 
My pup has lots of FT CH in his pedigree, and although he's very active, he's also very responsive to training, and quick to learn.  'Pet bred' workers I would think might be the real danger as less thought has gone into the ultimate purpose for the puppies and you could very well end up with a less biddable, manic, uncontrollable dog.

My girls come from a famous line who successfully trial and work.  When I purchased them 6 years ago, I was quite naive  (pre COL) and didn't realize what I was getting    However, I may just be lucky but my girls are the easier dogs I have ever had.  They are so biddable and just want to please me.
Looking at their pedigree they may seem unsuitable for a 'non working'  home but I have found them perfect 
I do realize though that my girls may be the exception 

[Helen]

Fair point, however I think Black Taz does competitive agility and has a working strain lab that she's done gundog training with. 

My pup has lots of FT CH in his pedigree, and although he's very active, he's also very responsive to training, and quick to learn.  'Pet bred' workers I would think might be the real danger as less thought has gone into the ultimate purpose for the puppies and you could very well end up with a less biddable, manic, uncontrollable dog.

To be frank this isn't enough with a dog with real working drive.   Having met Caoimhe I would say her energy and intensity far exceeds any other working cocker pup I've ever seen which is exactly what Nicola spent 9 months looking for.  It's a completely different level 

Most working cockers have their fair share of red in the pedigree which doesn't make them a field trial champ themselves.  It sounds like your pup Emilyoliver is a normal working cocker pup with a good drive but not exceptional which is like most working cockers.

The issue I have is with people studding out their FT CH's for money and not seeing where the progeny goes - if a breeder happily sells the direct progeny of a FT CH as a pet I would question them as a breeder, especially if they're selling them to non-working homes.

We saw exactly that on the forum with Daisy who was a high-drive pup and who was re-homed via Nicola in the end to a working home.

[JeffD]

Hip scoring and other testing is generally not done with dogs with strong FTCH lines as if there were problems it would be well known amongst the shooting and field trial guys. Not saying I agree with this but that is how it is.

A pup from these lines can be a nightmare as a pet even with lots of training and brainwork.
Exercise alone will not help they just get fitter and by the time the pup is 18 months old you will be exhausted before the pup has even started to get warm.
These pups should only go to homes that will give them work in one form or another

But if you are prepared to possibly have a nightmare in the house for the first 10 or 12 months and can give the pup the training and brainwork it requires you will be rewarded with one of the best breeds of the dog world.
Training and owning a strong work bred cocker will have you pulling your hair out most days and collapsing in giggles the next day
Teal is just coming up to 11 months and I cant say she is a joy to have in the house yet, but its close 500% better than she was 4 months ago she even had a sleep on my lap this weekend a real first.

Outside doing what she is bred for she is fantastic and has been since day one, very quick to learn and just as quick to stick a finger up at me, probably the most complicated and testing dog I have ever trained and a real test of my abilities as her trainer, Just last night on another forum a more experienced trainer described her as a Tears or Trophy dog which is spot on.

I wouldn't swap her for anything  

[Helen]

Hip scoring and other testing is generally not done with dogs with strong FTCH lines as if there were problems it would be well known amongst the shooting and field trial guys. Not saying I agree with this but that is how it is.

I think you'll find quite a lot is swept under the carpet Jeff and ignored.   I've heard of many things that haven't been publically aired and are gossiped about -  like sprockers being trialled as workers, FT CH with twisted spines being used at stud, HD, PRA, heart problems.....

I know it's heresay but there's no smoke without fire 

[Emilyoliver]

To be frank this isn't enough with a dog with real working drive.   Having met Caoimhe I would say her energy and intensity far exceeds any other working cocker pup I've ever seen which is exactly what Nicola spent 9 months looking for.  It's a completely different level  

Most working cockers have their fair share of red in the pedigree which doesn't make them a field trial champ themselves.  It sounds like your pup Emilyoliver is a normal working cocker pup with a good drive but not exceptional which is like most working cockers.

There you go - if you're not specifically selecting a red-hot trialling prospect then you may well end up with a great, biddable dog that admittedly needs some brain work and a job to do.  Just so long as you aren't going into it with eyes closed, expecting to have a pavement pounder, most 'normal working cockers' are great dogs and fit into active households where they have their needs met.  (I also think competitive agility training (not once a fortnightly 'fun classes') can be a suitable outlet for a worker - it takes a lot of commitment from  the owner, as well as providing brainwork for a dog).  

[Lovely]

I think when buying a worker you'd do well to do a bit of homework on the different strains as some breeders will breed for specific traits whether it be build, temperament, bravery in cover etc. I always bang on about working springers cos they're what i know, and there are distinct differences in certain strains, some can be housed in an active household, others really are for trialling and kennels. I agree that not all health problems are obvious even in well known dogs- i know of one well known FT Ch lab that has been used widely as a stud that has serious aggression issues but i guess that wouldn't show up with health testing. Getting to know local good gun dog trainers is always a good start as they generally know the different lines and once you know them they'll give you loads of advice.

[black taz]

Thanks for all your replies, all very valid points.

I would add though that i have not gone into this with my eyes closed, although i have only recently started looking for breeders i have already done my research on working cockers themselves.  As this will make 3 dogs, it has to have the right dog.

Emilyoliver is completely right - i do have a working lab (with FCHt grandparents and her mother was an extremely good worker), and i do competitive (arguable!) agility with both.  I also have show cocker Taz (who was far more energetic and difficult to train than my friends worker - from a working background!)

However, you will all be relieved to hear that following a PM giving lots of useful advise, I have decided to opt for a working cocker from an agility background.  This is going to be more difficult to find that from a working breeder i know, but worth it for all concerned.  I have my name down for one such litter due next week, from an excellent agility background and fully health tested, so fingers tightly crossed.

[JeffD]

Hip scoring and other testing is generally not done with dogs with strong FTCH lines as if there were problems it would be well known amongst the shooting and field trial guys. Not saying I agree with this but that is how it is.

I think you'll find quite a lot is swept under the carpet Jeff and ignored.   I've heard of many things that haven't been publically aired and are gossiped about -  like sprockers being trialled as workers, FT CH with twisted spines being used at stud, HD, PRA, heart problems.....

I know it's heresay but there's no smoke without fire 

Yep  lots of rumours and smoke but I have not seen any fire amongst the top lines but I am sure it exists. When I was doing my research I spoke mostly to guys who just shoot over there dogs and have them for life unlike the trailers who generally trial dogs for only for a few years. I picked lines that have plenty of 8 and 9 year old dogs still working, to be honest that was the best I could do.

I've not heard  of any first generation sprockers being trialled but I would not be surprised to find there is some springer in a good few pedigree working lines and to be honest if that has been done with healthy dogs its good that the gene pool has been increased.

As I said I don't agree with non testing and as soon as more breeders get with it the better for the breed.

[MaggieR]

Thanks for all your replies, all very valid points.

I would add though that i have not gone into this with my eyes closed, although i have only recently started looking for breeders i have already done my research on working cockers themselves.  As this will make 3 dogs, it has to have the right dog.

Emilyoliver is completely right - i do have a working lab (with FCHt grandparents and her mother was an extremely good worker), and i do competitive (arguable!) agility with both.  I also have show cocker Taz (who was far more energetic and difficult to train than my friends worker - from a working background!)

However, you will all be relieved to hear that following a PM giving lots of useful advise, I have decided to opt for a working cocker from an agility background.  This is going to be more difficult to find that from a working breeder i know, but worth it for all concerned.  I have my name down for one such litter due next week, from an excellent agility background and fully health tested, so fingers tightly crossed.

Fingers crossed for next week.... sounds like you've done a lot of work before making your decision and your pup will be a lucky little girl/boy