CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Health => Topic started by: *jean* on January 27, 2008, 10:42:49 PM
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...while out on a 3 hour run yesterday. I was about a mile from the car on the way back it was pretty cold and windy and she was wet.
She started running around me howling in fear then her back legs gave out. I was panicking a bit myself as I wasnt sure what was going on,.. Pepper had an attack like this 18 months or more ago the vet thought it might have been her heart as otherwise she was right as rain. anyway peppers yelling her head off so liath joined in.. I told liath to shut up as it wasnt helping peppers panic if liath was going to get all hysterical too. peppers started to be quite but was all distant on me. just staring at me. I just kept talking to her soothing her and a few mins later she was back to normal tho a bit subdued,
took her home where she scoffed all her grub and had a big drink and she was as before..completely normal.
Id seen this programme a while back.. pepper is half springer half cocker and she had run solidly for 3 hours through deep cover..
sounds a bit like it doesnt it?
theres a clip you can watch if you click on the link..that says watch the report of collapsing dogs..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/outdoors/features/landward_301107/
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Aww sorry to hear about Pepper, cant help I'm afraid but will send some healing thoughts x
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Sorry to hear about Pepper Jean.
Similar thing happened to Jess, one of our springers. I think she was about 8 years old. It was a hot day and she was on lead walking up a hill with OH. Back legs went and she needed a break before she could continue. I wasn't there so only heard about from OH. It happened a couple of time after that I think, but never when she was with me. She was as right as rain afterwards, same enthusiasm, same appetite.
She lived until she was 12 when she had heart failure(I guess), her back legs went and we sat up with her all night(it was a Sunday). She died within 6 hours. I wonder if it is caused by a heart defect?
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I dont know what it is . because it hgappens miles from anywhere on a run by the time I get her to a vets shes fine.
weird. she didnt fit as such but was very out of it and stary. she didnt pass out but I honestly dont think she knew me at one point.
It was horrible watching her running around me screaming in panic at the start, when liath started screaming too I nearly died,.. but she was just wound up as pepper was screaming..sisters eh?
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I have very little veterinary knowledge whatsoever, but I wonder if with her having been out and running for such a long time that her blood was pumping to and through her heart so much that it wasn't circulating to her brain properly and so she collapsed in a similar way to a fit???
What you described is very much like what is mentioned on the video link.
I hope you can find what is wrong and that Pepper is ok.
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Poor Pepper! that must have been frightening for you Jean. The video clip is very interesting, I agree, it certainly seems possible that this is what happened to Pepper !
Lets hope it doesn't happen again :-\
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God I'm really sorry to hear that Jean, you must have been terrified. I saw that Landward episode with the collapsing dogs when it was on tv a while back and thought it was quite interesting. It does sound very similar to what's happened to Pepper. I really hope it doesn't happen again. Are you going back to the vet with her this week?
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How scary for you and Pepper :luv: It does sound like the same think on the video link doesn't it. I hope it doesn't happen again for a long time, its so hard for the vet to diagnose if Pepper is ok a wee while after the event :-\
Give her a squidge from us :-*
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How awful and scary for all of you! :-\
It does sound like what is on the link. Dr. Simpson, the vet from the link who is researching it, might be interested in Peppers case. Why don't you send him an email? Even though it's more than 2 hours, he may be interested in a blood sample from her.
Fingers crossed it doesn't ever happen again
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Jean, try and contact Dr Simpson to put your mind at rest (the best bit of that video was him saying it's not fatal) - i know it's happened on my BIL shoot, and they thought the springer was having a fit - I'm forwarding the video on. They gave the springer something sugary as they assumed his blood level had dropped dramatically - I spose you would if it was a human ??
Marathon runners have all sorts of 'energy' foods/drinks - I wonder if there is some kind of dog equvalent?
thinking of you - I would have been absolutely petrified :-\
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Poor wee pepper :luv: Hope she is ok :luv:
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Poor Pepper and poor you Jean. You must have been worried sick :'( I would have been panic stricken. I think the others are right and it would be worth contacting this Jimmy Simpson to let him know about Pepper. Thinking of you :luv:
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My older dog - Penny (nearly 12yr old Lab x Jack Russel x 'hint of cocker') had a fit/turn yesterday, she's had them throughout her life, we can go months without and then two in a weeks for example. When she goes in to one of these funny turns/fits its like her legs aren't strong enough to hold her up, she digs her claws into the floor, shakes, trembles, dribbles her eyes get really stairy - like she can't focus. Sometimes she collapses on her side, sometimes she's sick. We are almost certain that what Penny eats is linked to these episodes. She has to have soley JWB food, and human food (meat) with NO additives (colourings, flavourings etc). One thing that almost definately ensures a fit is those Winalot Shape Biscuits - someone once gave her one at training without asking and she had a fit in the car on the way home. She found one of these biscuits out on a walk and ate it before we had chance to get her to drop it and fitted when she got home, and had a coloured treat at Christmas time and had a fit on the stairs later that day. When she has one of these episodes I do what you did, try to keep calm and soothe her - when she's coming out of it she often hides her head under my arm and if I'm at home I turn the lights of and close the curtains to make it dark for her.
My computer is being a bit of a >:D so couldn't watch the article :'( but I thought I'd share my experience of Penny and her turns as what Pepper had sounded slightly similar. Its so scary when it happens isn't it - as they look so confused.
Sending lots of cuddles Peppers way :luv:,
Holly
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That sounds really scary - glad to hear she's okay now. I did see something very similar with a collie at agility last year, it was a warmish evening and at the end of the class its owner was leading it out through the gate when it just seemed almost to faint. It just fell over and lay there looking a bit dazed, then a few seconds later was up on its feet again and seemed perfectly okay, so it could be the same kind of thing? I know sometimes if I go for a long run I can end up feeling quite dizzy so it wouldn't surprise me if dogs just over-exert themselves to the point where they fall over - especially spaniels...
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Poor Pepper :-* :luv: It does sound like how others have described it from the vid link , I couldn't see the link but sounds very interesting
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Jean, you're a nurse, so taking a blood sample shouldn't be a problem for you. Why don't you contact Dr Simpson and ask him how he wants the sample taken, packaged/how to get them to him quickly etc. Then if it happens again you are ready :blink: .
I've just seen the video link (missed it first time round ::) ) and agree it is very interesting. It sounds as if Jess, who was always totally turbo charged, had a very similar problem.
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Jean, you're a nurse, so taking a blood sample shouldn't be a problem for you. Why don't you contact Dr Simpson and ask him how he wants the sample taken, packaged/how to get them to him quickly etc. Then if it happens again you are ready :blink: .
I've just seen the video link (missed it first time round ::) ) and agree it is very interesting. It sounds as if Jess, who was always totally turbo charged, had a very similar problem.
Not sure Jean would want to take it from her dog though! ;)
I do think it sounds just like that on the video. Agree with those who have suggested contacting him.
Hope she is ok!
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Not sure Jean would want to take it from her dog though! ;)
There's always a first time Annette, and if it helps Pepper I am sure she will manage ;)
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Not sure Jean would want to take it from her dog though! ;)
There's always a first time Annette, and if it helps Pepper I am sure she will manage ;)
Im going to speak to my vet about it.. Taking blood at the time would be best but carting a tourniquet needles syringes and a razor about everywhere I go with pepper might be a bit impractical, However I daresay I can get bloods off her if I have a 2 hour window. I think I might get in touch with edinburgh and see what the vet Dr simpson says. I wonder how id get his email?
when i think of it the twice this has happened she has been running on an empty stomach for a fairly long time. I gave her a small feed today and yesterday prior to taking her out , I did 6 miles goodness knows how many she did ( she quarters the ground around me non stop ) and no ill effects . was out with 9 working cockers and 1 clumber. nice walk.
maybe if I give her a small feed in the mornings it will stop this happening. A freind told me today that a keeper she knows carries a mars bar for his dog.. it must have a similar problem. I dont know if mars bars are the best thing considering dogs are allergic to chocolate.
I could buy some hypostop wich is just glucose you squirt in the mouth. works on humans. The vet I want to talk it over with is off right now but Im going to have a chat when she gets back.
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I think I might get in touch with edinburgh and see what the vet Dr simpson says. I wonder how id get his email?
Give them a ring here, this is Dr Simpson's department, his name's on the top of the Clinicians list and the phone number's above it. I've had quite a bit of contact with the vet school about the course and they're very helpful...
http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/services/internal_medicine.htm
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I think I might get in touch with edinburgh and see what the vet Dr simpson says. I wonder how id get his email?
Give them a ring here, this is Dr Simpson's department, his name's on the top of the Clinicians list and the phone number's above it. I've had quite a bit of contact with the vet school about the course and they're very helpful...
http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/services/internal_medicine.htm
thanks nic. Im such a jessie Id probably not go looking for it myself as Im a wimp. But I will phone and see what he says. eek! I hate phones! hasnt he got an email?? I will psyche myself up to it tommorrow. promise. ok am off to bed... the dogs are all in the land of nod..why am I such an imsomniac? oh yes ...blinking hight duty ruins my sleep pattern! >:D
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the inside of a Mars bar is what they used on the Springer I was speaking about ;)
You could always just carry one pre-prepared (i.e you've nibbled off the chocolate outside) in cling film but the Hypostop sounds better ;)
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I have seen this happen on a shoot and again a Mars bar was used, but the Hypostop sounds a better idea if you can squirt it into her mouth as sometimes it is difficult getting them to eat in this situation. We always gave our dogs a small breakfast before going beating (although they were usually too excited to eat it)
Hope Pepper is O.K
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the inside of a Mars bar is what they used on the Springer I was speaking about ;)
You could always just carry one pre-prepared (i.e you've nibbled off the chocolate outside) in cling film but the Hypostop sounds better ;)
you know me too well! !! Im going to email the vet at edinburgh see what he says.
I always worry about running dogs on full stomachs. gastic torsions come to mind. especially the way my lot leap and twist.
when Im out with my sisters lurchers and deerhounds they have short bursts of speed and then jog jog jog.heads up eyes fixed ahead..
my lot belt around heads down tails up zig zagging and twisting leaping , stopping dead and backtracking. theres no comparison in the way they move. they use far more energy than the bigger dogs and have way more stamina. the bigger dogs just end up walking beside us after an hour or so with the odd jog if they spot something.
so my theory was if they had food slooshing round in their stomachs it was a risk. maybe theres a way round it..??
i do feed them a lot of raw and also some high maintainace complete dog food for working dogs as they burn off food very quickly..( not at the same time tho!)
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Jean have PM'd you with info ;)
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the inside of a Mars bar is what they used on the Springer I was speaking about ;)
You could always just carry one pre-prepared (i.e you've nibbled off the chocolate outside) in cling film but the Hypostop sounds better ;)
you know me too well! !! Im going to email the vet at edinburgh see what he says.
I always worry about running dogs on full stomachs. gastic torsions come to mind. especially the way my lot leap and twist.
when Im out with my sisters lurchers and deerhounds they have short bursts of speed and then jog jog jog.heads up eyes fixed ahead..
my lot belt around heads down tails up zig zagging and twisting leaping , stopping dead and backtracking. theres no comparison in the way they move. they use far more energy than the bigger dogs and have way more stamina. the bigger dogs just end up walking beside us after an hour or so with the odd jog if they spot something.
so my theory was if they had food slooshing round in their stomachs it was a risk. maybe theres a way round it..??
i do feed them a lot of raw and also some high maintainace complete dog food for working dogs as they burn off food very quickly..( not at the same time tho!)
I know what it's like - Jarv has collapsed a couple of times in the summer. We always make a point of taking him out early/late when it's cooler but he used to really overdo it and it is very scary. Not what Pepper does - in this case it's heat exhaustion.
I feed Jarv a small meal an hour (at least) before we go out - he covers so much ground he must be burning off a helluva lot of energy so I try and make sure he has a small reserve.
the other thing I was thinking - I know it's a hassle but could you resort to 'treats' on your walks? (i know your dogs are way past needing treat incentives). If you could get something small occasionally down their necks it may help any blood sugar drops (although if Jarv is in full on working mode nothing will tear him away ::) )
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the inside of a Mars bar is what they used on the Springer I was speaking about ;)
You could always just carry one pre-prepared (i.e you've nibbled off the chocolate outside) in cling film but the Hypostop sounds better ;)
you know me too well! !! Im going to email the vet at edinburgh see what he says.
I always worry about running dogs on full stomachs. gastic torsions come to mind. especially the way my lot leap and twist.
when Im out with my sisters lurchers and deerhounds they have short bursts of speed and then jog jog jog.heads up eyes fixed ahead..
my lot belt around heads down tails up zig zagging and twisting leaping , stopping dead and backtracking. theres no comparison in the way they move. they use far more energy than the bigger dogs and have way more stamina. the bigger dogs just end up walking beside us after an hour or so with the odd jog if they spot something.
so my theory was if they had food slooshing round in their stomachs it was a risk. maybe theres a way round it..??
i do feed them a lot of raw and also some high maintainace complete dog food for working dogs as they burn off food very quickly..( not at the same time tho!)
I know what it's like - Jarv has collapsed a couple of times in the summer. We always make a point of taking him out early/late when it's cooler but he used to really overdo it and it is very scary. Not what Pepper does - in this case it's heat exhaustion.
I feed Jarv a small meal an hour (at least) before we go out - he covers so much ground he must be burning off a helluva lot of energy so I try and make sure he has a small reserve.
the other thing I was thinking - I know it's a hassle but could you resort to 'treats' on your walks? (i know your dogs are way past needing treat incentives). If you could get something small occasionally down their necks it may help any blood sugar drops (although if Jarv is in full on working mode nothing will tear him away ::) )
pepper spits treats out on walks.. its as if she hasnt time to eat there is too much else far more interesting around.. liath will gobble them up. I think thats why pepper was harder to train as she is not food motivated outside.
Ive emailed james simpson to see what he says...
thanks everybody for your concern.
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Ive emailed james simpson to see what he says...
Let us know what he says :D
If you are concerned about bloat, you could make the pre-run meal a light one, more to the liquid side like a soup or porridge. The problem comes when dry food swells in the stomach and produces gas
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Ive emailed james simpson to see what he says...
Let us know what he says :D
If you are concerned about bloat, you could make the pre-run meal a light one, more to the liquid side like a soup or porridge. The problem comes when dry food swells in the stomach and produces gas
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its not bloat Im worried about so much as a gastric torsion. A friend lost her dog from that. he had the surgery but arrested and died the next day. It was incredibly painful as well. poor dog.
jimmy simpson has emailed me back and wants her bloods next time. she fits his criteria for research.
I was out walking the dogs yeterday with my friend the vet so Ive prewarned her.
Ive kept a cpoy of the email to take in as well as Ill never remember what bloods, and in which tubes they go, and if they need spun or not so its easier if I just take the letter. ph34r ( cop out!)
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its not bloat Im worried about so much as a gastric torsion. A friend lost her dog from that. he had the surgery but arrested and died the next day. It was incredibly painful as well. poor dog.
They go hand in hand. It starts as bloat, the gas can't pass, then the stomach twists (torsion)
Glad you got in touch with Dr. Simpson. Hopefully the occasion to need him will never arise again :blink:
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jimmy simpson has emailed me back and wants her bloods next time. she fits his criteria for research.
I was out walking the dogs yeterday with my friend the vet so Ive prewarned her.
Oh that's great! I'm really glad he got back to you, hopefully it won't happen again but if it does then at least you'll be able to get some feedback from him.
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Glad you managed to get in touch and got a speedy reply too :D
Don't blame you keeping a copy of the email to take with you to do the bloods etc :D
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In the film piece, he refers to low blood sugars (which you've had suggestions about) and low electrolytes. Would it be worth getting Pepper and Liath to both have a drink of the rehydration liquids (you know the powder sachets you make up with 500ml of warm water??) which contain the necessary electrolytes an hour before you walk/run them, and to take some with you as a preventative - make Pepper sit and drink for a few slurps during the walks a few times?
Let us know how you get on. I love this site!
Denise
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In the film piece, he refers to low blood sugars (which you've had suggestions about) and low electrolytes. Would it be worth getting Pepper and Liath to both have a drink of the rehydration liquids (you know the powder sachets you make up with 500ml of warm water??) which contain the necessary electrolytes an hour before you walk/run them, and to take some with you as a preventative - make Pepper sit and drink for a few slurps during the walks a few times?
Let us know how you get on. I love this site!
Denise
its an idea but pepper prefers puddles! and at the run no stopping allowed! :005:
I think I will carry on as Im doing to see if I can get the bloods off her ( if she takes a turn ) without having extras to confuse things. Once thats done Ill just give her a small feed a couple of hours before taking her out on the long walks. Ill see what jimmy simpson suggests as well as he will get back to me about her once hes done her bloods.. then Ill know whats low and whats normal. Im almost tempted to re-enact the situation just to get it over and done with, but I dont want to see pepper so upset and frightened. And I worry about what will happen if she collapses in thick cover ie gorse where I cant get to her. panic panic panic!
jimmy simpson has emailed me back and wants her bloods next time. she fits his criteria for research.
I was out walking the dogs yeterday with my friend the vet so Ive prewarned her.
Oh that's great! I'm really glad he got back to you, hopefully it won't happen again but if it does then at least you'll be able to get some feedback from him.
whats the bets it happens on a sunday and the on call vets at a calving in durness? Oh the joys of being rural! :005: ph34r