Vanguard 7 Vaccine

[Mel]

I know it's a terrible worry, especially as I seem to have found a contra indication between Advocate and Pilocarpine, you wonder what if something reacted with the vaccines too. I had so wanted to bring Tali up as naturally as possible but he has to have the internal drops for his eyes. My OH's dog has never, under my OH's care been vaccinated and that's in 13yrs! His sister is currently fighting her insurance as they didn't stipulate her dogs needed to be vaccinated every year when she took out her policy. Now they are trying not to pay for treatment.

[fifer]

I think they suggest parainfluenza and lepto every year. Tali is due his first annual booster in April and I want to know if he needs it and a bit about titring please.

OK answering your questions purely from my own experience and background research

a) I have only had one serious occurrence of KC ie parainfluenza in a multidog household in over 40 years of owning dogs as an adult.
b) The vaccine for the above appears to be a live modified vaccine which is the type most commonly cited in cases of vaccinosis.
c)  I have lost a dog to Leptospirosis - it is both a devastating illness and horrible death.
d)  Lepto vaccines are not without risk being one most often cited as causing reactions within 24 hours in otherwise healthy dogs.  However the spread of rats in the UK may make vaccination worth the risk.  The other point about this vaccine is that it does not cover all strains of Lepto.
e)  Titre testing is a simple blood test which can be taken at any time.  The lab will determine immunity levels of the dog from the blood taken.

Hope that helps you decide.

[fifer]

His sister is currently fighting her insurance as they didn't stipulate her dogs needed to be vaccinated every year when she took out her policy. Now they are trying not to pay for treatment.

The only thing they could argue about is any condition which could have been vaccinated to prevent, they haven't got a leg to stand on for any other condition.

[Max X 2]

His sister is currently fighting her insurance as they didn't stipulate her dogs needed to be vaccinated every year when she took out her policy. Now they are trying not to pay for treatment.

The only thing they could argue about is any condition which could have been vaccinated to prevent, they haven't got a leg to stand on for any other condition.

IMHO it's a bit of a grey area when the conditions read for example:
Conditions
• You must ensure that your pet has received the required vaccinations, failure to
comply with this may jeopardise your claim or cover – Please refer to the General
conditions applicable to the whole policy in the policy wording for full details.
Special conditions apply to each section of your policy – Please refer to the policy
wording for full details.

Vaccinations
You must ensure that your pet is vaccinated in accordance with the recommendation
of your vet against distemper, hepatitis, leptospirosis and parvovirus

[fifer]

But hardly relevant for say a broken leg. 

[Mel]

I think they suggest parainfluenza and lepto every year. Tali is due his first annual booster in April and I want to know if he needs it and a bit about titring please.

OK answering your questions purely from my own experience and background research

a) I have only had one serious occurrence of KC ie parainfluenza in a multidog household in over 40 years of owning dogs as an adult.
b) The vaccine for the above appears to be a live modified vaccine which is the type most commonly cited in cases of vaccinosis.
c)  I have lost a dog to Leptospirosis - it is both a devastating illness and horrible death.
d)  Lepto vaccines are not without risk being one most often cited as causing reactions within 24 hours in otherwise healthy dogs.  However the spread of rats in the UK may make vaccination worth the risk.  The other point about this vaccine is that it does not cover all strains of Lepto.
e)  Titre testing is a simple blood test which can be taken at any time.  The lab will determine immunity levels of the dog from the blood taken.

Hope that helps you decide.

Thank you fifer, that is useful to know. And yes, nothing to do with things like broken legs!

[Mybuddies]

Over vaccinating hmm something I am in discussion with my vet at the moment too

I have decided to go down the road of titre testing from when the 2nd annual booster is due and will always get the 1st booster at the 1 year (or thereabouts ) birthday because there is a chance that the mothers antibodies may have interfered with the initial course of vaccines

I believe you cannot titre for lepto (or indeed an accurate titre is not possible therefore pointless) which is slightly where my worries lie

On discussing with my vet, I pointed out to him that there is treatment for leptospirosis in the way of antibiotics ( unlike parvo which there is no treatment available) however he did say that they had never managed to save a dog whom had contracted leptosprirosis

In order to make my decison I would like to know just how many incidences of lepto in our area there are, but cannot seem to find the info

Is it fair to say that lepto is generally contracted from rat infested areas/water and not just from say 1 or 2 rats after all they say you are never more than a metre away from a rat !

Fifer -  can I ask
I understand you booster on the 3 year cycle,  but do you take the yearly booster for lepto and PI in between or do you just have that done on the 3rd year too, or do you opt out of the booster for those 2 because of the reaction risk?

 When your dog contracted lepto,  you had a multi dog household,  was there a significant risk of the other dogs becoming poorly too ?

as someone who has experienced this horrific virus/infections first hand just would be interested to know what and why this works for you but would understand if prefer not to discuss

I think it would be interesting to know of those who do titre just how many times they do actually need to top up

its probably a huge grey area that we may never get a definitive answer too overall,  afterall the vaccine manufacturers state in their own data sheets that the vaccines may be ineffective due to nutritional factors, hormones, stress factors, drugs so it seems its a no win situation !

[Ben's mum]

I titre Ben, rather than vaccinate.
he has not needed anything for 4 years now.  But 4 years ago his Parvo was low so I had that on its own. I think this year he might be ready for a booster.

you can't titre for lepto - and the stuff i read says that many lepto vaccines are often not the same strain as you might find locally anyway.  I also understood that it only lasts in the body for a few months so they are not covered for a whole year, and as others have said is the most risky of all the vaccines so I choose not to have it.

[fifer]

Fifer -  can I ask
I understand you booster on the 3 year cycle,  but do you take the yearly booster for lepto and PI in between or do you just have that done on the 3rd year too, or do you opt out of the booster for those 2 because of the reaction risk?

When your dog contracted lepto,  you had a multi dog household,  was there a significant risk of the other dogs becoming poorly too ?

The dog concerned had recently been brought in (possibly stressed?) possibly had a lower resistance to our local (farm) rat population diseases.  All the dogs were vet checked and boostered as they were at the 9 month stage, but I suspect my other dogs had better immunity.  No other dog took ill.  My vet was one of the few with extensive knowledge of Lepto having had the unforunate experience of having to destroy a pack of 40+ hunting hounds when he was practising in Wales many years before.  His sensible advice was followed and the old farm buildings were extensively laid with poison to reduce the rat population.

Many years on and changing ideas, I have a very different approach to Lepto vaccine, I haven't boostered my dogs for 2 years, but that is a chance I take.  I live in an area with many watersources, I do not stop the dogs from drinking in the loch or moving water but do not allow them to drink from puddles (smaller areas of standing or still water being one of the main infection sources).  TBH I can see no benefit to boostering for Lepto when
a) there are so many different strains of Lepto and not all are covered by the current vaccine
b) I try my best to keep the local population at a minimum by sensible use of rat poison  
b) I have a dog who has auto-immune problems caused by vaccine who can no longer be vaccinated at all.

The virulent KC outbreak was at an earlier time, caused by a dog vaccinated against KC being brought into my boarding kennels very soon after vaccination.  He was the first dog to start coughing but some of the dogs got it really bad with heavy mucous discharge, one took secondary pneumonia, and I was medicating roughly 16/24/7 - if I got any sleep during that period I was fortunate - as some were very, very ill.

[Mybuddies]

Thank you fifer Most interesting

Yes I agree avoiding contact with standing/stagnant water makes good practice, I cant bear to see a dog drinking from (dirty) water you never know what other nasties are in it, never mind rats urine !!

I also omitted to mention earlier that I had said to my vet about lepto only giving a short amount of immunity and he responded by saying that the vaccine would not of been given the license for 12 months if it could not have been proven to provide cover for that amount of time.... a fair point I suppose,  but be interesting to find out about who sorts out the licensing etc

Bens mum, thats really good news that ben has been spared those unnecessary vaccines for so long, heres hoping his levels are fine this time too

 I know I have still yet to decide how to proceed if there is a low titre level,  Prof Jean Dodds points out that any titre level is still acceptable as the memory cells will grow when they meet the virus again  therefore boosting the titre level, its difficult sometimes to find some middle ground and not be in conflict with the vets continually   whom on most occasions I am very very satisfied with

[spanielcrazy]

I took Louie for his booster, just needed the lepto and PI.
She gave him the full nobivac, thensaid he would have to come back in two weeks for the another jab.
She said because they were different vaccines and would have to start again 
I didn't take him back for the second one.

What complete nonsense!  All the companies that the vets get their vaccines from are reputable companies and the vaccines are all very similar in quality and manufacture. The main difference in vaccines is whether they are "live", "modified-live" (or attenuated) or "killed" (all referring to how the virus is delivered; with "live" being the most problematic of course)

Many, many dogs and puppies (and kittens too!) are sold or transferred in the middle of their baby jabs, often across the country to vets who may well carry a different brand of vaccine. (they don't carry them all, usually they have personal favourites or which company has special deals (insert eyeroll!) It makes not one whit of difference who made the vaccine, as long as they are compatible as far as the live, modified live and killed status are concerned.

[PennyB]

But hardly relevant for say a broken leg. 

I agree (or even glaucoma) - I take the vax thing as if only it can be proven the illness was related to the owner not vaxing their dog rather than for everything - if that was the case then you woudn't be covered for anything

Like a few others mine are on the 3 year schedule as well.

[Mel]

Logic would tell me that all the vaccines should be the same if they are vaccinating against the same diseases. I was rather curious as to why they wouldn't work and have to give a dog a double dose when changing between manufacturers. I had considered giving Keli the jabs again about 5 years ago. They had a Booster Amnesty and were charging half price to get your dog's jabs up to date. I was a little concered about the double dose to restart but I never got round to it.

I really get angry hearing that unnessesary chemicals are pumped into our animals. No wonder the incidences of cancers and other diseases are getting more prevalent in pets as a whole.

So why are there 'live', 'live modified' and 'killed' vaccines and how does each one work?

[fifer]

Oh how I love threads like these where we doggie peeps challenge the "establishment" views    Very educational and interesting they make us think and question and that can only be good for scientific research long term.

To answer Mel I found this link which explains the differences in vaccines clearly and in non scientific terms.

http://www.dvmvac.org/killvmodified.asp

I found it enlightening if in some ways worrying ie virus being shed into the environment.

[phoenix]

Vaccination is an annual nuisance here, thanks to using kennels a few times a year.
I do support the use of vaccines---we lost a dog to lepto years ago. There is no difference in having one rat around or and infestation. If you see it, you've got the infestation.
Our problem began when marti the springer nearly died, resulting in  permanent exocrine pancreatic insufficiency from auto-immune problems. The coincidence was that this hit her 2 weeks after her first  7 in one vaccine, instead of the usual 5 in one. We now split her vaccines into  separate jabs, spaced out, when required.
It all comes down to greedy drug companies IMO.