Optigen Test

[Jane S]

Yes as from next year, Optigen results will be published in the Cocker Club Welfare booklet (not just clears but also carriers and affecteds). Obviously this list will be purely voluntary but in due course it looks like Optigen tests will eventually be incorporated into the KC's system and will automatically be published like clinical eye test results already are.

If I was looking for a puppy, I would only consider breeders who Optigen test and we will no longer use a stud dog who has not been tested (we'd be quite happy to use a carrier if we have a clear bitch but we're not prepared to use any "unknown quantities"). Once you've had a lovely Cocker diagnosed with PRA as we have, it's hard to see how anybody justifies not testing now we have the available technology to never breed an affected dog again.

[sarah25]

One of our Cockers parents are both A1/clear,so there would be a good chance of our dog being an A1 aswell 

[Jane S]

If both parents are A1/clear, their puppies will also automatically be clear - they can't be anything else

[sarah25]

Thanks Jane

[sportsmonki]

Thank you all for your replies; they have been really helpful to me.  I do agree completely that if there is a test available that it should be made use of to reduce the chances of affected puppies.
 
Thank you also Gilly for the link...it's really interesting to see the results.  I guess that list is similar to the border collie one though...in that it is voluntary...which I guess unfortunately means that like the border collie list...some breeders are reluctant to disclose the results of their dogs that have not come back as clear?  It's a good idea to collate results into the cocker club welfare booklet; I will look out for it next year.

[KellyS]

we'd be quite happy to use a carrier if we have a clear bitch but we're not prepared to use any "unknown quantities"

We take the same approach as you Jane.  I think it is worth pointing out that it is important that a carrier is not disregarded from a breeding programme purley because it's a carrier. Carriers must continued to be used (on clear bitches) to maintain a healthy gene pool.  It will be a great shame if breeders with-hold carriers from the list.

[Kim]

I may be a little controversial here 

Whilst I agree in principal with all the testing etc, it does worry me that some people or prospective pet owners etc who don't have all the facts, will only go down the road of seeking pups/dogs that are tested for whatever.
What I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't be forsaking all else in the hunt for the dog with the perfect eyes/hips etc.

IMO there is much much more to a dog, whether it be a pet or a showdog.

I have had my Champion dog Optigen tested & he is a 'B' ie a carrier (As far as we can tell, as had been said this test is not 100%)

Now well known breeders, who expressed an interest in using my dog at stud in the past, will not consider him, even on their 'A' bitches - That's ok, no skin off my nose, as whatever else goes wrong with a litter/puppy is usually blamed on the stud dog.
But the advice from Optigen & from people such as Jane & KellyS, is to use these dogs, if he/she has the other characteristics that you like in a Cocker.
We are becoming too obsessed with the test of the moment, forsaking soundness in other areas & temperament - to me temperament should be the 1st & foremost consideration when breeding a litter - as most puppies will go off to pet homes.
I agree we don't want to burden pet owners with costly & emotionally wrenching health conditions, but look at the recent tv coverage of cockers, many won't be given the chance to live long enough to develop any hereditary conditions, if the temperament issue isn't monitored.

I have watched cockers of all colours at shows, in the last few years & I can see that there are dogs with dubious temperaments in ALL colours.
Some of these dogs will be used over & over at stud, because of their Optigen status.

I would love to have all mine tested, purely for my own benefit, bearing in mind I could get a false reading back at the moment, but at £130+ per dog I truly can't afford to.

All this is JMVHO
Shoot me now! 

[Cob-Web]

Not shoot you Kim, but as a geneticist, I do disagree with you 

Of course temperament is important - and it goes without saying that a good breeder will ensure that sires and dames are selected for complimentary and positive traits.....

However, temperament is influenced by much more than just genetics - unlike medical conditions such as PRA, which will develop in dogs with both effected genes

I think it essential that these genes are excluded from the gene pool (and to me, that includes not breeding from carriers) - and once the affected dogs are excluded from the "breeding pool", THEN the selection is made based on temperament and physical appearance 

One of my reasons for thinking this is because even well bred puppies do, sometimes, end up in the hands of unscrupulous, or inexperienced breeders, who will not consider the genetics that a dog is carrying when breeding
Unless reputable breeders take steps to reduce the occurrence of this gene in the gene pool - there will always be PRA affected dogs, and the availability of the test will have little effect on the long term reduction/elimination of the condition

I appreciate that until the majority of Cockers are tested, it will not be known how prevalent the gene is within the gene pool - it may be impossible to maintain the breed without breeding from carriers if the pool of clear dogs is very small...
I wish that the KC would take a stronger stand on this; they are ideally positioned to fulfil a co-ordinating role and make a huge difference to the health of the gene pool of future dogs 

[Kim]

I agree with you, (except for excluding the carriers) but surely, likewise dogs of good Optigen/ DNA status will eventually end up in those same unscrupulous hands???
These people will have no trouble selling their pups over the likes of me, because they are "tested"
Surely breeding to type (ie temperament & physical appearance) is what pedigree dogs are all about?

tell u wot let's forget about the true characteristics, lets all get x breeds!

[Cob-Web]

Surely breeding to type (ie temperament & physical appearance) is what pedigree dogs are all about?

Yes, it is - and in an ideal world, I may feel differently   

I suppose what I am trying to say is that by testing and not breeding carriers, then reputable breeders will reduce the risk of future generations of cockers suffering PRA no matter who breeds them and how reputably they do it - which is a good thing, surely?
I do realise that this is a huge responsibility for today's breeders to accept when it is for the benefit of future generations of dogs - which is why I think the KC/Breed Clubs should take the lead on this, rather than it be left to individuals 

[Kim]

Then I guess I'm not a reputable breeder & am to be avoided like the proverbial . . .

[KellyS]

We are all entitled to our opinion and I feel that Kim, you have made some valid points but I would not put type, temp and health in any particular order personally. I feel all 3 are just as important as each other. Having had a dog with severe health problems in the past I wouldn't wish it upon anyone and my opinion is that whether you want a dog to show, work or as a pet you still want a healthy animal as well as good type and temperament.

Sorry IWlass but I cannot agree with not using carriers - IMO they are not affected by the disease in anyway they just carry a gene - as long as people are responsible and continue to monitor all offspring. I would much rather use a carrier than an 'unknown' at least you would know what you would be getting . If carriers are excluded it will do nothing to encourage breeders to health test!!

Pls don't shoot me down either just my VHO

[Gilly]

This is where it really annoys me. It cannot turn into a witch hunt. Kim, I feel for you. I was upset to find out Buttons was a carrier, we want nothing more than our dogs to be A1's unfortunately for many of us that has not been the case. I certainly would NOT rule out using a B1 stud on an A1 bitch. If people are choosing not to use a dog that ticks all the right boxes then they are going to do the breed an injustice Optigen themselves have been quite strong about his point, otherwise you are breeding from such a small gene pool, which in my opinion would be a recipe for disaster.
Rachel B1's are NOT affected they are carriers and put to an A1 will only produce carriers and clears NOT affected. You cannot possibly rule out carriers if they bring all the right characteristics to the gene pool and I don't just mean health I mean temperament and type as well. If you look at the statistics so far you can clearly see that there are nearly as many carriers as there are clear. Now in my personal opinion I can quite well believe that there may even be MORE carriers than clear as people do not want to be judged or labelled for having a "carrier" dog and because the results are not yet made public by default people do not have to make it public knowledge. Now I am quite sure like me Kim has not kept this a secret but has not felt the need to make it public knowledge other than to people who have requested to use her dog at stud or potential puppy owners.
What I am trying to say is sometimes you cannot do right for doing wrong  some people won't be happy until they've got some genetically perfect android lab grown dog 

Kim...I mustn't be a reputable breeder either 

[KellyS]

some people won't be happy until they've got some genetically perfect android lab grown dog   

 

[silkstocking]

Then I guess I'm not a reputable breeder & am to be avoided like the proverbial . . .

Well we all know thats not true!!