Optigen Test

[Cob-Web]

In no way were my comments directed at any individual - my opinion is from a purely scientific perspective, I am considering the "hypothetical" future gene pool of the breed.....not in any way advocating a "witch hunt" against personal choices made by individuals   

I appreciate that my background in genetics may mean that I approach this differently to many people - but with the development of scientific tests such as Optigen I can only hope that the KC and all breed clubs are debating these issues so that the technological advances can be used to benefit future generations of the breeds we all love

[Kim]

ok but when we get a test for temperament, or coat quality,colour, or likelyhood of developing senile dementia, or bad mouths, or cateracts (which I have heard of more Cockers losing their sight from, than pra)  . . . . then what???

As a genetacist - surely a x breed will be more attractive? Because the very fact that we love a breed for their own characteristics will bring trouble eg Cocker = beautiful long ears = trouble !!
                            Cocker = beautiful long coat = trouble !!
                            Sad, droopy eyes (not my perception, but Joe Publics) = trouble!!

Cannot be denied.

[Cob-Web]

ok but when we get a test for temperament, or coat quality,colour, or likelyhood of developing senile dementia, or bad mouths, or cateracts (which I have heard of more Cockers losing their sight from, than pra)  . . . . then what???

Then reputable breeders can carry on breeding the best possible examples of the breed - the tests are merely tools to improve this process   

As a genetacist - surely a x breed will be more attractive? Because the very fact that we love a breed for their own characteristics will bring trouble eg Cocker = beautiful long ears = trouble !!
                            Cocker = beautiful long coat = trouble !!
                            Sad, droopy eyes (not my perception, but Joe Publics) = trouble!!

Cannot be denied.

Why do long ears, a long coat and droopy eyes bring trouble?? I don't understand what you mean really - sorry?

[Mich]

Not sure I would call myself a geneticist as I am no longer actively in the field, but I do have an honours degree in the subject so here goes

I totally agree that carriers SHOULD continue to be used.

In my scientific understanding (which is not that specific to dogs I must add) the effects of shriking the gene pool - which is what would be being done by only using dogs and bitches that are A1 would in the long term have far more detrimental effects than using carriers in the first place.
This is especially true if in the future other tests become available, which give similar categories of dog - ie clear or carriers for other diseases.  The number of 'safe' dogs will become so small and their genes so similar that problems are bound to arise.

IMO the gene pool should be kept as broad as possible whist ensuring that the pups themselves are not directly affected and this includes using carriers.

So not everyone with a background in genetics approaches things that differently

[Gilly]

Thank you Mich  you've probably explained it better than I did 

[tracey]

Rachel, you are entitled to your opinion, we all are... however to suggest that carrier dogs should not be bred from is shortsighted, imo

Carrier dogs, and bitches  still  have a valid and important role to play in a breeding programme, a good specimen of the breed should not be excluded or written off because of their optigen status Carrier dogs, and bitches with  excellent temperaments, of good type still  have valuable traits and many years of breeding to pass on to their offspring.

Carriers bred to clears and any puppies kept for breeding optigen tested and untested/ carrier pups carefully placed in pet homes with the implication of breeding from a carrier dog explained to the new owner, in conjuction with an endorsed registration is the only way imo to clear the breed of this disease.

BTW all of my dogs are optigen tested clear, however I have never discounted using a carrier dog Temperament  and type are equally important to me.

Hopefully the DNA test for FN will be available soon. What do we do with carriers for that remove them too

Kim and Gilly, both of you do all you can for your dogs.... that makes you more than reputable

[Cob-Web]

In my scientific understanding (which is not that specific to dogs I must add) the effects of shriking the gene pool - which is what would be being done by only using dogs and bitches that are A1 would in the long term have far more detrimental effects than using carriers in the first place.

I agree

- it may be impossible to maintain the breed without breeding from carriers if the pool of clear dogs is very small...

[Jane S]

Rachel, you are entitled to your opinion, we all are... however to suggest that carrier dogs should not be bred from is shortsighted, imo

I agree 100% as does Dr Jeff Sampson, the KC's own geneticist who is more qualified than most to speak on this issue. Dr Sampson does not just think there is nothing wrong with using carriers sensibly - he is insistent that we do so as he believes that withdrawing carriers from the gene pool at this stage would be enormously damaging. He spoke on this very subject at the recent Cocker Club Seminar and was adamant that breeders should not withdraw their carrier dogs. We already have a small gene pool and making it even smaller unnecessarily would be unbelievably short-sighted in his professional opinion. This approach was used when the DNA test was released for PRA in Irish Setters and has been extremely successful. Carriers were allowed to contribute to the gene pool for a set number of years (5 I think) which gave breeders sufficient time to use their carriers judiciously and still rid their lines of the defective gene over successive generations. Early onset PRA has now virtually been eliminated from the breed. I see no reason why the same success cannot be achieved in Cockers and am happy to follow Dr Sampson's advice

[Mich]

Rachel, you are entitled to your opinion, we all are... however to suggest that carrier dogs should not be bred from is shortsighted, imo

I agree 100% as does Dr Jeff Sampson, the KC's own geneticist who is more qualified than most to speak on this issue. Dr Sampson does not just think there is nothing wrong with using carriers sensibly - he is insistent that we do so as he believes that withdrawing carriers from the gene pool at this stage would be enormously damaging. He spoke on this very subject at the recent Cocker Club Seminar and was adamant that breeders should not withdraw their carrier dogs. We already have a small gene pool and making it even smaller unnecessarily would be unbelievably short-sighted in his professional opinion. This approach was used when the DNA test was released for PRA in Irish Setters and has been extremely successful. Carriers were allowed to contribute to the gene pool for a set number of years (5 I think) which gave breeders sufficient time to use their carriers judiciously and still rid their lines of the defective gene over successive generations. Early onset PRA has now virtually been eliminated from the breed. I see no reason why the same success cannot be achieved in Cockers and am happy to follow Dr Sampson's advice

Brilliant, genetics is all about getting the balance right and this is exactly how to do it, prevent the defective genes being expressed whilst allowing as many other genes as possible to continue in the pool.

[KellyS]

I went to the seminar too. I really enjoyed listening to Dr Sampson, what he had to say seemed to make an awful lot of sense.

[Jane S]

I went to the seminar too. I really enjoyed listening to Dr Sampson, what he had to say seemed to make an awful lot of sense.

Yes same here - he's the best speaker on canine genetics I've ever heard. It helps that he is also a dog breeder himself so can relate to the problems we all face as breeders and explain things in a way everyone can understand

[Cob-Web]

Carriers were allowed to contribute to the gene pool for a set number of years (5 I think) which gave breeders sufficient time to use their carriers judiciously and still rid their lines of the defective gene over successive generations.

Sounds perfect to me - and exactly this kind of co-ordinated approach that is needed to make best use of this kind of test 
Out of interest - how is such a breeding programme "enforced"?? What happens to breeders who continue to use carriers in breeding programmes after 5 years

[Jane S]

Out of interest - how is such a breeding programme "enforced"?? What happens to breeders who continue to use carriers in breeding programmes after 5 years

We are not at that stage yet in Cockers as the Optigen test is not yet incorporated into the KC system but it will be - these things take time. As far as Irish Setters go, they have 2 DNA tests (for PRA and CLAD) and now no puppies can be registered with the KC unless both parents have been tested and found clear for PRA or are hereditarily clear of the disease. They are still allowed to breed from CLAD carriers but only until 2008. Once a gene test is incorporated into the KC registration system, it is easy to enforce the rules over carriers. Of course Irish Setter breeders are fortunate in that this is not really a commercial breed so they don't have too many breeders who operate outside the KC system but they are a shining example of how breeders can work together to rid their breed of resessive conditions at the same time as retaining type and temperament etc.

[Cob-Web]

Out of interest - how is such a breeding programme "enforced"?? What happens to breeders who continue to use carriers in breeding programmes after 5 years

We are not at that stage yet in Cockers as the Optigen test is not yet incorporated into the KC system but it will be - these things take time. As far as Irish Setters go, they have 2 DNA tests (for PRA and CLAD) and now no puppies can be registered with the KC unless both parents have been tested and found clear for PRA or are hereditarily clear of the disease. They are still allowed to breed from CLAD carriers but only until 2008. Once a gene test is incorporated into the KC registration system, it is easy to enforce the rules over carriers. Of course Irish Setter breeders are fortunate in that this is not really a commercial breed so they don't have too many breeders who operate outside the KC system but they are a shining example of how breeders can work together to rid their breed of resessive conditions at the same time as retaining type and temperament etc.

Sounds brilliant - I hope that as the tests become available, all breeds will be subject to the same management.........
Is there any indication of how soon the Optigen test could be incorporated into KC Registration?

[Jane S]

No idea really but as we're only at the beginning of the process I wouldn't expect to be given a timetable yet. The KC aren't good at telling you when things will happen