Optigen Test

[supaspaniel]

We've just had our results back from Optigen, from a 20/20 clinic that Carol at Sharemead arranged.  Worked out £100 per dog, we had the bloods drawn at our own vet, then sent them to Carol.

Results:  1 carrier  1 Normal/Clear...........so at least we know to use only Normal/Clear dogs on our carrier, although I will only use Normal/Clear dogs from now on anyway, we did actually get the results we expected.

still be passing on the gene to a % of the litter tho

Can I just say, that I wasn't condemning the Optigen test, just stating that I don't think it should be the only deciding factor, when breeding.
After all I have had it done.
It is a valuable tool, but only if used wisely.

[Sharon]

The gene 'maybe' but had we not had her tested, she could have been mated back to another carrier and results would have been far worse.

This is a much safer option than just the standard KC/BVA tests.

[Gilly]

We've just had our results back from Optigen, from a 20/20 clinic that Carol at Sharemead arranged.  Worked out £100 per dog, we had the bloods drawn at our own vet, then sent them to Carol.

Results:  1 carrier  1 Normal/Clear...........so at least we know to use only Normal/Clear dogs on our carrier, although I will only use Normal/Clear dogs from now on anyway, we did actually get the results we expected.

still be passing on the gene to a % of the litter tho

Have you read any of this thread  it has been made clear that you CANNOT breed out the carriers at this point, there are just too many at the moment.

[Cob-Web]

still be passing on the gene to a % of the litter tho

Have you read any of this thread  it has been made clear that you CANNOT breed out the carriers at this point, there are just too many at the moment.

I understand both sides of this; in an ideal world, the Optigen test can prevent this gene being passed to any more dogs, ever - and from an academic perspective, that is the goal    I also appreciate that the gene pool may not be big enough for the breed to survive if carriers are eliminated from breeding programmes immediately, so breeding carriers in the short term (which will prolong the process of eliminating the gene from the pool), may be a necessary evil 

Hopefully, the KC will adopt a similar approach to the one Jane described in an early past in relation to Irish Setters, so that in a few years time, the use of carriers in breeding programmes will be prevented 

[Bryning]

Surely the initial aim is to avoid producing any more affected animals, producing carrier pups isn't a problem if they are homed/bred from wisely.  (I'm sorry I'm using the BC terminology of 'normal', 'carrier' and 'affected' but I'm sure you know what I mean)

I certainly have no qualms breeding form carrier animals, I have 2 CEA carrier bitches and 1 carrier dog amongst my BC's (the carrier rate is about 20%) and all 3 have been bred to DNA 'normal' partners; since all my pups are endorsed anyway it is just another condition of the endorsment.  From one litter I selected 2 dog and 2 bitch pups I was interested in using in future and DNA tested them , both bitches were clear, I kept one and the other went to my friend out in Austria as her foundation bitch, 1 dog was clear I kept him in co-ownership and the other dog was a carrier so he went to an obedience home where he has been castrated.  In my second litter I selected a bitch puppy I wanted to keep and DNA tested her, she is clear and in the third I selected 2 bitch puppies to test both of which were clear, one went back to the stud dog owner and the other went to a friend, a third bitch from that litter has tested as a carrier, her owners will breed her to a clear dog....no problem!  I do feel pretty lucky though, over 3 litters I have selected 7 pups for testing and only had 1 carrier amongst them, each stood a 50% chance of being 'normal'.  Ultimatley I hope to breed the gene out but it may take a number of generations to do that without losing the other qualities I value, still, Rome wasn't built in a day ;-)

I'll have it all to go through again when I get the cockers tested I guess

[Bryning]

Hi Bryning,
I did have the gonioscopy done with Penny and she is fine, I agree Mr Ellis is very nice, and I liked him more when he said Penny was a lovely dog to examine, because she didn't move a muscle throughout the eye exams. I think I might have been mistaken then about what testing he was talking about.

I have now had Penny and Phoebe optigen tested through a 20/20 clinic, I'm just waiting for the results.

Oh that's good, Penny sounds like a real sweetie   Fingers crossed for your Optigen results!

[supaspaniel]

still be passing on the gene to a % of the litter tho

Have you read any of this thread  it has been made clear that you CANNOT breed out the carriers at this point, there are just too many at the moment.

I understand both sides of this; in an ideal world, the Optigen test can prevent this gene being passed to any more dogs, ever - and from an academic perspective, that is the goal    I also appreciate that the gene pool may not be big enough for the breed to survive if carriers are eliminated from breeding programmes immediately, so breeding carriers in the short term (which will prolong the process of eliminating the gene from the pool), may be a necessary evil 

Hopefully, the KC will adopt a similar approach to the one Jane described in an early past in relation to Irish Setters, so that in a few years time, the use of carriers in breeding programmes will be prevented 

 well said

I made a simple comment that is the plain TRUTH and as someone who has just experienced a most painful loss to a genetic disorder that possibly COULDNT have been prevented I feel  have the right to voice that comment. The fact that some might be offended by my comment is a bit bizarre. I want nothing more than our beautiful breed to continue and fully understand genetics. And yes I have read the thread but I still only stated the truth.

[Gilly]

I was not offended by your comment  The aim here is to breed unaffected dogs and that is what those of us have taken advantage of the test are doing 

[spanielcrazy]

One possible solution, if the various KCs and breed associations are serious about eradicating genetic disease, would be allowing shipped semen from clear, non carrier stud dogs internationally. There may not be enough non-carriers in a given area but there probably are worldwide.

With the internet and the ability to see videos, pics, etc. and the ability to share information a breeder would still be able to select for wanted qualities and not lose what they have gained. It would also broaden the gene pool.

Just a thought....

[Bryning]

I made a simple comment that is the plain TRUTH and as someone who has just experienced a most painful loss to a genetic disorder that possibly COULDNT have been prevented I feel  have the right to voice that comment. The fact that some might be offended by my comment is a bit bizarre. I want nothing more than our beautiful breed to continue and fully understand genetics. And yes I have read the thread but I still only stated the truth.

Just to be pedantic breeding a 'carrier' to a 'normal' could result in a whole litter of 'normal' offspring where non have inherited the faulty gene so to be totally correct you would have to say that mating 'could' be passing the gene on to a % of the offspring.

That does of course work the other way round, I know of someone (BC breeder) who DNA tested a litter of 7 whose dam was a CEA carrier and sire was normal and every single pup was a carrier, guess is just depends on that genetic roulette!

[supaspaniel]

I made a simple comment that is the plain TRUTH and as someone who has just experienced a most painful loss to a genetic disorder that possibly COULDNT have been prevented I feel  have the right to voice that comment. The fact that some might be offended by my comment is a bit bizarre. I want nothing more than our beautiful breed to continue and fully understand genetics. And yes I have read the thread but I still only stated the truth.

Just to be pedantic breeding a 'carrier' to a 'normal' could result in a whole litter of 'normal' offspring where non have inherited the faulty gene so to be totally correct you would have to say that mating 'could' be passing the gene on to a % of the offspring.

That does of course work the other way round, I know of someone (BC breeder) who DNA tested a litter of 7 whose dam was a CEA carrier and sire was normal and every single pup was a carrier, guess is just depends on that genetic roulette!

sorry have you studied Mendelian Genetics then???

[Jane S]

Actually Bryning is correct. Because Mendalian rules are statistically based on larger numbers, you do sometimes get surprising results if you consider one litter in isolation. Taking colour inheritance as an example, we have seen many illustrations where you sometimes don't get the results you might expect eg you might mate a dog and a bitch knowing they carry a particular recessive colour gene and yet no puppies of that colour result. Conversely, using the same example, you can get far more puppies of a particular colour than you might reasonably expect applying Mendalian rules. So in theory you could mate a PRA carrier bitch to a clear male and get no carrier puppies or fewer than you might expect, particularly if the litter was small (conversely you could get more carriers than predicted).

The important thing is to avoid producing affected puppies - a carrier x clear mating will never produce affected progeny and breeders can then test the resulting puppies to ensure only clear puppies are bred from in the future, thus eradicating the gene from their lines in a relatively short space of time.

[supaspaniel]

Actually Bryning is correct. Because Mendalian rules are statistically based on larger numbers, you do sometimes get surprising results if you consider one litter in isolation.

yes but we are not talking about one litter   

The important thing is to avoid producing affected puppies - a carrier x clear mating will never produce affected progeny and breeders can then test the resulting puppies to ensure only clear puppies are bred from in the future, thus eradicating the gene from their lines in a relatively short space of time.

exactly and no longer breeding with carriers which is my point that it needs to stop somewhere

[Jane S]

yes but we are not talking about one litter   

Sorry, you've lost me now. You appeared to disagree with Bryning's claim that it was possible to produce no carrier puppies from a carrier x clear mating and I've explained why this certainly is possible. I'm quite happy to have a sensible discussion on this subject but arguing over the semantics seems a bit pointless really

...exactly and no longer breeding with carriers which is my point that it needs to stop somewhere

I'm not sure what the argument is about here?? Nobody is saying carriers should be used ad infinitum, just used sensibly in the short term to avoid decimating the gene pool. That's what we've all been saying isn't it? Perhaps you are saying that breeders should stop breeding from carriers immediately?? If so, this goes against the advice of experienced canine geneticists for all the reasons already discussed.

[tracey]

We've just had our results back from Optigen, from a 20/20 clinic that Carol at Sharemead arranged.  Worked out £100 per dog, we had the bloods drawn at our own vet, then sent them to Carol.

Results:  1 carrier  1 Normal/Clear...........so at least we know to use only Normal/Clear dogs on our carrier, although I will only use Normal/Clear dogs from now on anyway, we did actually get the results we expected.

still be passing on the gene to a % of the litter tho

Can I just say, that I wasn't condemning the Optigen test, just stating that I don't think it should be the only deciding factor, when breeding.
After all I have had it done.
It is a valuable tool, but only if used wisely.

The percentage in Sharon's case if her carrier is mated to a clear is 50% carrier and 50%clear. As previously discussed if puppies from such matings are carefully placed in pet home with their registrations endorsed and the consequence of breeding from carrier animals explained then I can't see a problem
Hope you don't mind me quoting your post Sharon