Arthritis

[elaine.e]

Elaine.e  nice of you to remember, yes I was very down when I first posted on here but all the recommendations and advice from COL (yourself included) really helped, both myself and Ozzy.

Hello john51, as you say everyone will make up their own minds.
But all I can say is that when Ozzy has his acupuncture there is such a big improvement that for him it works.

Totally agree with you about the acupuncture Carol . It definitely works for William and puts a spring back into his step.

[john51]

It definitely works for William and puts a spring back into his step.

when Ozzy has his acupuncture there is such a big improvement that for him it works.

I hear you!  We have a completely different understanding of what counts as evidence in medical matters.

As an aside, I have a dog walking acquaintance who has a labrador. She told me one day that her labrador was cured of a significant neurological problem when she sent a photo of the dog to a healer (or was it a heeler? ) in Leicester.

She also knows that it works.   

[Mudmagnets]

It definitely works for William and puts a spring back into his step.

when Ozzy has his acupuncture there is such a big improvement that for him it works.

I hear you!  We have a completely different understanding of what counts as evidence in medical matters.

As an aside, I have a dog walking acquaintance who has a labrador. She told me one day that her labrador was cured of a significant neurological problem when she sent a photo of the dog to a healer (or was it a heeler? ) in Leicester.

She also knows that it works.   

I do feel that  because you are not a believer in alternative therapies and medicines, there is no real need to attempt to ridicule those that do use them.  It obviously works for those dogs and their owners who use them - what is the problem. If ever my dogs needed it I would have no hesitation.

[Poppypuppy09]

Having had a springy who was diagnosed with the most profound case of osteoarthritis my friend (who is a qualified vet, teaches pathology at Langford and is also an holistic vet too) gave Tessa acupuncture, a dog cannot lie, she would hobble in there on three legs and walk out on four. I realises that the acupuncture isn't a treatment for the arthritis in itself but it most obviously made her feel better. I too am a scientist and find such things difficult to comprehend at times but I know what I saw and I truly believe there is room for all kind of treatments.

I am so pleased that Ozzy is feeling better 

[PennyB]

Elaine.e  nice of you to remember, yes I was very down when I first posted on here but all the recommendations and advice from COL (yourself included) really helped, both myself and Ozzy.

Hello john51, as you say everyone will make up their own minds.
But all I can say is that when Ozzy has his acupuncture there is such a big improvement that for him it works.

Totally agree with you about the acupuncture Carol . It definitely works for William and puts a spring back into his step.

Same with Wilf and to be honest I trust the vet I deal with (she lectures all over the world re rehabilitation of dogs on various courses at vet schools and is fast becoming an authority on the subject which includes acupuncture, physio, chiropracty etc.) - the same clinic uses the same therapies on cats and horses with good results

[Sheryl]

I do feel that  because you are not a believer in alternative therapies and medicines, there is no real need to attempt to ridicule those that do use them.  It obviously works for those dogs and their owners who use them - what is the problem. If ever my dogs needed it I would have no hesitation.

Was just thinking the same myself

[john51]

I am sorry people feel that way about my comments. I do not intend to ridicule anyone, and don't actually believe I have done so. I clearly have a different philosophy about treatment to many on here and am trying to find a way to highlight a different type of thinking. What I did was try to use humour (always a bad idea, I know) to point up the fact that it is very easy to assert something is true, but much more difficult to provide some kind of proof that it is true. This forum offers advice that can affect the life and well-being of dogs. I think, therefore, that it is completely valid to question advice that is based purely on belief and not backed up by some form of evidence.  (If, however, I am being criticised for suggesting that faith healing at a distance does not work, then we probably cannot communicate.)

The fact that I don't believe certain therapies are effective is immaterial, and if convincing evidence were produced tomorrow, I would be quite happy to change my mind. I don't actually think that belief should be a significant factor in medicine. The point I have been  making in this thread is that although acupuncture is a reasonably popular form of treatment for many, and belief in it is relatively high, it is not backed by any strong positive evidence. Certainly there are many anecdotes about how individual dogs respond, and many professionals who support its use and sell it as a treatment. Also, although I do not doubt that owners are seeing a response in individual dogs it will not be clear what that response relates to, will be affected by bias and inconsistency,  and will never constitute evidence for the treatment.

(Poppypuppy09 - with your scientific background, if you have looked at the design requirements, statistics, and sample sizes needed to put together a valid trial, you will realise that it is not possible to prove anything with one dog, no controls and no randomisation or blinding.)

I accept that most people on the forum will not be interested in what I am trying to say, and will be quite happy to spend money on alternative treatments that don't have scientific backing. However, given the implicit and explicit recommendations found on this forum for several types of alternative therapy, I feel  that it is perfectly reasonable to give an opposing view, and in many ways an essential counterbalance to what appears to be the prevailing opinion. Not everyone is convinced by alternative medicine.

I have always tried to provide helpful replies to people that are based on logic and science. In this I sometimes find my genuine views in conflict with others and it is not easy. If I occasionally get the tone wrong I apologise.

[Sheryl]

Why does it matter so much to you that you be right? If some people have tried alternative therapies and they have worked, for whatever reason, why would you want to dismiss that just because there is no ''scientific evidence'? Is an individuals experience not classed as evidence?

The members are not saying this or that alternative therapy is a miracle and works for all, just in their experience of using whatever therapy, this is the result they noticed.

As a dog owner I am happy to try all forms of treatment and I don't see that as doing my dogs some sort of disservice.

[PennyB]

Why does it matter so much to you that you be right? If some people have tried alternative therapies and they have worked, for whatever reason, why would you want to dismiss that just because there is no ''scientific evidence'? Is an individuals experience not classed as evidence?

The members are not saying this or that alternative therapy is a miracle and works for all, just in their experience of using whatever therapy, this is the result they noticed.

As a dog owner I am happy to try all forms of treatment and I don't see that as doing my dogs some sort of disservice.

I agree plus the vets who do practise this are not charlattans either and are if I remember rightly scientists of sorts anyway (as are the health profession in the NHS who use acupunture too - our local physio dept does along with other therapies like massage, chiropracty etc. just as my vet physio/rehab clinic does)

[wilfsaunty]

It definitely works for William and puts a spring back into his step.

when Ozzy has his acupuncture there is such a big improvement that for him it works.

I hear you!  We have a completely different understanding of what counts as evidence in medical matters.

I have to disagree with you as regards evidence that acupuncture works.  I don't have any research papers to hand but there is scientific evidence to back up that it works.  Quite how it works is open to debate but MRI studies have shown changes in the brain when needles are inserted at specific points.  Whether you believe in traditional chinese medicine and the flow of energy or not there is evidence that acupuncture works on the pain receptors, can improve circulation (thermal imaging done before and after needling shows a raise in temperature).  Improving circulation means that more oxygen is available to use and waste products that have built up are more efficiently moved away.

As well as seeing the difference acupuncture can make with hundreds of different dogs, including some of my own.  I've also been treated by 2 different people.  One needling using Western principles (very painful but effective) or following Traditional Chinese methods (much less painful, with less focus on trigger points and probably more effective)  I have had acupuncture for pain and also been treated using 'lung points' while being treated for another problem.  My asthma had been playing up and without realising I had been treated was able to cut my use of ventolin within hours of needling.

In work I've seen dogs with severe neurological problems unable to even lift their head return to a normal life following acupuncture in conjunction with physiotherapy.

It also appears that acupuncture even works on sceptics.   

[Poppypuppy09]

I completely agree with what you say regarding stats, sample sets etc and if you read what I wrote I stated that as a scientist I found it difficult to comprehend but as Mum to a very poorly dog I felt I had nothing to loose...I witnessed what happened time and time again as Tessa was having acupuncture twice a week and it made such a difference to her. My OH has had acupuncture and it did nothing for him.
I haven't researched acupuncture, wasn't even open to it til my friend (a vet of 25 years and lecturer at Langford) suggested we tried because there wasn't much more conventional medicine could do, all I know is my girl came out happy, relaxed and walking on all four legs.....surely that can't be a bad thing
This forum is here for all, everyone has their own views on everything, I personally like to keep an open mind, let's face it, wether you agree or disagree on acupuncture it's not going to have any long term detrimental affect on the dog, only to the wallet and that's the owners choice 

[john51]

Yes, there are many studies that show acupuncture works for pain relief. In over 3000 trials, the results are variable. This suggests firstly, a general lack of quality in the trials and then the fact that although it may work to some extent,  it is generally not significantly better than placebo, (some researchers attribute it's effects to the placebo effect) and the positive and negative results may just be part of the statistical variability of the trial results. So the evidence is not strong that it is a useful treatment.

However,

Why does it matter so much to you that you be right?

Probably because I am a depressive perfectionist with an emotional need to prove something. (Although I've never minded being told I'm wrong if someone can explain why.)

For anyone interested, I will leave you with a link to a well-argued opinion piece by a Canadian vet. He puts the opposition case to the current thinking that every theory is equally valid and that we must allow equal credence to everything, particularly if natural, ancient or mystical.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1476381/

[panda66]

Met a woman on the beach today with a severely crippled springer who said she has tried everything and that she can see an improvement since he has been on Turmeric.

I think these things are worth trying as long as there are no adverse side effects listed. We all just want to help our dogs 

[Sheryl]

Absolutely!

[Sheryl]

Probably because I am a depressive perfectionist with an emotional need to prove something. (Although I've never minded being told I'm wrong if someone can explain why.)

I'm sorry to hear that, it must be very debilitating