CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: PopPops on September 06, 2017, 11:58:46 AM
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Argh.
After Poppy, who never learned to walk on a lead, I swore I'd do better with Tolly and started work on lead work and attention right from the very start. He's eight months old and we've just come back from a trip to the garden centre and I could cry. Despite hours and hours of patient practice clicking and rewarding steps, look at me, six weeks of obedience classes (in which he largely tried to hump a French bulldog he became obsessed with and couldn't concentrate on anything else), hours of work on impulse control, hours (literally) of sitting outside with him in public places working on look at me with a clicker to proof him against distractions, he dragged me everywhere, towards every smell, everything of interest, any person, he was swinging around me like a kite, it was a wrestling match from start to finish. Interspersed with mad hopping on his hind legs like a kangaroo if anyone came into view and jumping up at everyone and everything. And he learned to cock his leg two weeks back which at least stopped him constantly weeing on his front legs and stomach and having to be bathed several times a day, but he sprayed absolutely everything. Display stands, doorways, everything, I ended up having to carry him because even with eyes in the back of my head he was spraying everything he could get into reach of. He's oblivious to me on the lead, he has no sense whatsoever of being with me or walking with me, he just goes into a mad state of flap just like Poppy used to.
Two dogs. Two dogs I've somehow managed to raise as dogs who can do beautiful tricks, sits, stays in the house with me, but the second there's any distraction turn into flappy, uncontrollable maniacs who are no pleasure to take out anywhere, I can't work out what I'm doing wrong! I'm reading what I can and seeing people saying 'don't let them glue their nose to the ground or sniff or relieve themselves outside unless you say so' - HOW?! I can't get this dog's attention at all with any treat of any kind, I can wave hot roast chicken under his nose and not get him to look at me, he's not that interested in food. Backing away from something he wants and waiting for him to get the idea that if he stops behaving like a pogo stick he can go closer doesn't work, he just hangs on the lead and swings around me in circles, or lunges like mad in whatever direction I turn in. Nothing seems to be working at all! Is it always this hard?
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So frustrating! Is he interested in toys rather than food? You could try short burst of tug as a reward instead of food, if that's what rocks his boat.
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Afraid I can offer no advice on this.
But thank you for posting such a brilliant description of what it is to be the owner of a cocker in a public place. I'll be smiling all afternoon at the image:-)
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Afraid I can offer no advice on this.
But thank you for posting such a brilliant description of what it is to be the owner of a cocker in a public place. I'll be smiling all afternoon at the image:-)
Yes indeed, a familiar scene it is!! :005:
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So there's no hope of having a 'normal' dog, then?
Almost every day, someone asks me how old my 'puppy' is. When I say he's two, they look surprised, then make sympathetic faces. Yup.
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Argh don't tell me this is it permanently! Otherwise I'm going to quit trying to walk him and just get one of those baby toddler sling things and carry him everywhere, it'll be less painful on my back!
Thanks for the idea Londongirl, I'll have a try with a toy and see if he's more interested.
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I just read the OP out loud to my OH and he is crying with laughter (mostly in sympathy, to be clear). :005: :005: :005:
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Afraid I can offer no advice on this.
But thank you for posting such a brilliant description of what it is to be the owner of a cocker in a public place. I'll be smiling all afternoon at the image:-)
This 😁
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Great post and it sums my life up 100% :rofl1:
Mine is 11 months old and as soon as he gets distracted he is uncontrollable. When he was younger I could bribe him with treats and he was perfect, unfortunately he even turns these down now and has his own mind.
Definitely keep going with what you are doing, even though you may think things are not working - i'm sure they are and he will be fine in the long run.
People keep telling me its just his age and he will get through it
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My Ollie is exactly the same and he is 8 next month!
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This is the best description of owning a cocker!
And it gets right to the nub of what's been going on in our house too. BonBon can learn anything indoors, and when I have her attention outside, she's an absolute dream. But we've had a steady succession of trainers who've given me one or the other method/harnesses (all positive) to help me with lead walking. When the treat value is high and the distraction level is low (or not novel), she can just about manage. In new places? Poltergeist on a lead.
I now use a long line (5m) as our lead. I don't want an extending one as I'm worried it will teach her to pull more. But our daily walks are in places where she can totter along beside me taking in all the sniffs (I call her PC Bonnie) and inspecting every hedge, shrub and piece of grass. If she pulls I stop. If we're next to the road, I bring her in and we play heel.
But in a new place, I use the WYDWL as a control mechanism to protect her and me.
I've had dogs all my life and this is my first cocker and my first real nutter. The others seemed to teach themselves to walk on a lead but I also need to be fair and remember that back then we had choker chains whereas now I wouldn't dream of it.
I am determined to get it right though and regularly re-read the works I like and try again. I am fascinated by trying to work out what reward they are getting and whether I can compete!
Good luck.
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Two of best bits of advice for me, trying to get Titch to walk less manically, were LondonGirls "if he pulls just stop and we don't go anywhere until the lead is loose." I found this was really difficult to maintain, as sometimes we really did have to go somewhere in a limited amount of time. So I used a particular 4ft lead for when I was going to insist on good behaviour, and at other times used the walking belt and bunjee lead (saves my shoulders and back!). He does seem to know the difference!
The other really helpful tip was from ips in this forum; when he starts pulling ahead, to stop and gently place him in the position you want him to walk - much better than pulling him back into position, and again seemed to really help him get the idea.
So, thanks to both, Titch is now 15 months and our walks are usually much more pleasant. :blink:
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Thank you, really good suggestions and much appreciated.
I read Londongirl's diary a while back, it's incredibly useful and I've been following both her advice and the other excellent thread running recently of physically putting him back in place, but it doesn't seem to get through to him. What I have been doing for the last couple of days is going right back to absolute basics and I have him on a lead attached to my waist all the time. The plan is that he'd get more used to walking with me. Actually he seems to quite like it and he's calmer in general. We had someone come to the door earlier and he was much calmer, and he isn't chasing the cats constantly or trashing the place. Possibly we've hit the majorly teenaged puppy stage and going right back to absolute basics is the way to go? We've had a couple of instances of cocking his leg in the house, having just discovered he can do it and now performing all the time like a fire hose, and having him on the tether seems to be helping with clarity on toilet training too.
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So glad to hear my diary helped! We still have pretty good loose leash walking but Henry does still dive off to the side to sniff things, mostly at the beginning of the walk. I have to remind myself how far we've come.
Another great tip I've recently discovered relates to creating a Reinforcement Zone where everything good happens. You make the zone the side of your leg, right on the seam of your trousers. You can actively reinforce this by getting the dog in position and feeding treats. But you can also reinforce it every time you interact with them while you are standing. So give toys from that side, with dog beside. Give cuddles from there too. And when walking, to avoid the dog getting into the habit of yo-yoing forwards and back for a treat, forwards, back for a treat, etc. - try walking backwards for a while, so the dog is always moving towards you. When he catches up, spin around to face forwards, getting the dog in the correct position, and reward for being in the 'zone'. It's great for getting to where you want to go, as they wonder what the heck you are up to and keep walking towards you.
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Just re-read the OP first post here again, it reminded me your dog is still pretty young and still I guess at the stage of testing how much it can control. They all seem to be very different in terms of development, but Titch has become a lot quicker on the uptake since he got to 1 year old. Also, I just use a little of his dried food, more as a marker of good behaviour than a super-desireable reward; i.e. I get his attention on me and offer a bit of dried food, more about getting his attention back than reward per se.
Of course, if I had a ball in my hand he would never move from my side (or rather, from just in front of me, staring into my eyes as he skips backwards while trying to mentally manipulate me to throw it) but, that isn't really practical when walking through the village.
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So glad to hear my diary helped! We still have pretty good loose leash walking but Henry does still dive off to the side to sniff things, mostly at the beginning of the walk. I have to remind myself how far we've come.
Another great tip I've recently discovered relates to creating a Reinforcement Zone where everything good happens. You make the zone the side of your leg, right on the seam of your trousers. You can actively reinforce this by getting the dog in position and feeding treats. But you can also reinforce it every time you interact with them while you are standing. So give toys from that side, with dog beside. Give cuddles from there too. And when walking, to avoid the dog getting into the habit of yo-yoing forwards and back for a treat, forwards, back for a treat, etc. - try walking backwards for a while, so the dog is always moving towards you. When he catches up, spin around to face forwards, getting the dog in the correct position, and reward for being in the 'zone'. It's great for getting to where you want to go, as they wonder what the heck you are up to and keep walking towards you.
That good advice, we've been working on this aswell recently and I've been told to treat with the same hand as I hold the lead with (left) i.e. the side that Humphrey's walking. We also have the diving and straining for the first few minutes of every walk but although I continue to attempt to correct it, I've become more tolerant as I know he will calm down.
I know the physical repositioning of the dog does seem to work for some but I don't do it as I think the dog needs to work it out for himself, if that makes sense?
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Hi,
I can't give a lot of advice as I'm fairly new to cocker parenting aswell however our dog trainer has taught us from day one to 'stroke the lead' the minute pup tries to drag us or pulls or disengages with listening to us. Sounds bizzarre, looks weird to passers by who think we are just caressing the dogs lead but it really work.
The basics of it are, whenever Leo pulls or decides he wants to go somewhere different to us etc we stop walking, place two hands on his lead and stroke with one hand at a time in the direction away from the dog. It's difficult to explain, but eventually (it sometimes takes ages) you want pup to turn to look at you, make eye contact and then continue to walk.
We have good days and bad days, new places and times where he is being walked by more than one person is still a bit of a challenge but on his every day walk he is an absolute dream. We also obviously use positive reinforcement when he's doing the right thing . This used to be click and treat every 100 yards or so but now it's just a verbal reward.
Hope that helps a little
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Hi,
I can't give a lot of advice as I'm fairly new to cocker parenting aswell however our dog trainer has taught us from day one to 'stroke the lead' the minute pup tries to drag us or pulls or disengages with listening to us. Sounds bizzarre, looks weird to passers by who think we are just caressing the dogs lead but it really work.
The basics of it are, whenever Leo pulls or decides he wants to go somewhere different to us etc we stop walking, place two hands on his lead and stroke with one hand at a time in the direction away from the dog. It's difficult to explain, but eventually (it sometimes takes ages) you want pup to turn to look at you, make eye contact and then continue to walk.
We have good days and bad days, new places and times where he is being walked by more than one person is still a bit of a challenge but on his every day walk he is an absolute dream. We also obviously use positive reinforcement when he's doing the right thing . This used to be click and treat every 100 yards or so but now it's just a verbal reward.
Hope that helps a little
Stroke the lead, forgive me I don't understand ??
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We have the same issues too! Oscar is nearly two, we did all the puppy school training, practised recall in quiet places/busy places. Took him to the town centre to get use to being around lots of people. We had a trainer lady come to our house for 121 sessions, although his walking improved slightly with the twisting around in a different direction every time he pulled, we use the clicker to train him at home (which he loves and is quite good) as soon as we are outside - he literally forgets everything.
Recently Oscar has gotten into the habit on a road walk of refusing to move unless he is going somewhere HE wants to go, will fall to the ground and start rolling around on the floor and then start barking >:( very frustrating when you try so hard and you see other people walking with other dogs and make it look effortless. People we meet in the park who have had spaniels say he will grow out of it.... I'm not convinced! But he is such a sweet little dog despite all the above!
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We have the same issues too! Oscar is nearly two, we did all the puppy school training, practised recall in quiet places/busy places. Took him to the town centre to get use to being around lots of people. We had a trainer lady come to our house for 121 sessions, although his walking improved slightly with the twisting around in a different direction every time he pulled, we use the clicker to train him at home (which he loves and is quite good) as soon as we are outside - he literally forgets everything.
Recently Oscar has gotten into the habit on a road walk of refusing to move unless he is going somewhere HE wants to go, will fall to the ground and start rolling around on the floor and then start barking >:(very frustrating when you try so hard and you see other people walking with other dogs and make it look effortless. People we meet in the park who have had spaniels say he will grow out of it.... I'm not convinced! But he is such a sweet little dog despite all the above!
I'm not convinced Humphrey'll ever walk in the way we hoomans term "perfect" either and at times it can be very frustrating but then I think the dogs I see walking calmly next to their owners might be devils at home, - maybe they bark, bite, are agressive to other dogs, annoy the neighbours, can't be left alone or are so blinkin' perfect they're just plain boring!! Lets be thankful that our little cocker monsters have a zest for life and are the way they are. I wake up most morning with pains in my hands and shoulders >:( but then I go downstairs and get smothered in licks and I can forgive him anything! !!! :luv:
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Do you know, I was thinking the same thing the other day. Yes Henry can be a complete pain when we are out, but he is a delight at home, we have almost no issues (apart from a bit of barking in the garden, because squirrels, birds, clouds...). I doubt any dog is 'perfect', despite appearances. And yes, I do sometimes look at well-behaved plodding dogs and wonder where their personality is.
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This is true and a great way too look at it!! They are little fluffy bundles of joy to be around and BizzyLizzy, you are right, they do give the best kisses :luv:
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Hi IPS,
Yes sorry, the 'stroke the lead' isn't particularly easy to explain. I've always found it weird but it does work.
The concept of it is, us (the owner), LITERALLY stroking the lead whenever pup pulls. So we stop walking, place two hands on the lead and stroke backwards one hand at a time, The sensation of the lead being stroked leads the dog to curiosity and, in turn, to turn around and look at us.
In return, pup gets a click treat reward and is allowed to walk on.
As I say, its a completely weird concept but totally works, Leo will often now not need the lead stroked, when we stop he will make eye contact immediately, however if there is something more interesting such as another dog, he takes a little longer to respond.
Leo basically never gets to pull us in the direction that he wants to go, we've had times where we are stroking the lead and Leo is up on his hind legs, crying at what he wants to reach but will always, eventually respond to the lead stroke.
As for the other recent posts... I FULLY agree. In my life, Leo has been a complete nightmare at home but is generally always pretty good outside of home. I would have him being a pulling devil over attacking me at home anyday!
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It sounds like the lead-stroking is a positive interrupter with the advantage of being likely to get the dog to turn back towards you. It makes the action more like the dog's choice than you cueing a behaviour. So you are getting the behaviour you want to be able to reward without obviously directing the dog.
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I would agree with that Londongirl!
I guess I've never really worked out why it works, but in essence I am encouraging a behaviour that I don't have to physically put a cue to.. So my stubborn little lad doesn't choose to ignore it often as he doesn't really realise he's doing that.
Saying that, he defiantly makes an effort to walk nicely more often than not, staring up at me while he walks beside me for some approval etc.
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I've just found this. Its apparantly connected to the TTip method of calming dogs, looks interesting!....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G4iJTTXy0-U
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Hi bizzylizzy, that's exactly what I was (badly) attempting to explain, thank you :)
Works very well either when Leo is pulling and/or decides to bolt himself to the floor.
It is obviously reactive to the behaviour you don't want to see but I've found using it alongside lots of postivie reinforcement when he is walking nicely has been a real winner
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Um, strange concept. Not knocking it you understand and if it works for folk then off you go 👍
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Um, strange concept. Not knocking it you understand and if it works for folk then off you go 👍
Did you watch the video bizzylizzy posted? Very interesting in how it negates the opposition reflex.
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Yes I watched it, its a new one on me 👍
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Um, strange concept. Not knocking it you understand and if it works for folk then off you go 👍
Did you watch the video bizzylizzy posted? Very interesting in how it negates the opposition reflex.
Yes I watched it, its a new one on me 👍
I was wondering if I muttered "Ommmmmm" while I was stroking the lead, if it would calm me aswell!
:005:
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:lol2: ive certainly needed to close my eyes and stamp my feet a few times whilst doing it haha
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Um, strange concept. Not knocking it you understand and if it works for folk then off you go 👍
Did you watch the video bizzylizzy posted? Very interesting in how it negates the opposition reflex.
Yes I watched it, its a new one on me 👍
I was wondering if I muttered "Ommmmmm" while I was stroking the lead, if it would calm me aswell!
:005:
Let me know how you get on. I have just got back from dogging in and moving trespassers and bollicking a walker with a show cocker off a lead 😞 I need to equalize my kama 👍
Stroke
Ommmmmm
Stroke
Ommmmmm
Stroke
Etc etc etc
😁
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:005: there's going to be a lot of eye rolling and raised eyebrows among our cockers over the next few days... :huh:
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Haha if I get chance, next time we are somewhere new I will YouTube a video of how he responds to the stroking. Nowadays he truly looks at me with a 'mum you're so annoying' face
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'Mum you're so annoying'..... LOL
Can't wait to try some lead stroking :)
I got the mekuti harness out. It never worked at all on Pops, she still pulled like a train, but with Tolls IF we walk in the middle of the road where there's no grass or anything green anywhere to sniff at, in two days I got about 40% of today's walk with him not leaning on the lead at all, walking on his own feet and intentionally keeping pace with me - and looking up at me occasionally! It has made me realise how convinced he is that walking on the lead involves leaning on it and me and the lead counterbalancing. If he has to bear his own weight he seems to get the idea more.
However, anyone walking anywhere in sight, and ANYTHING green, and we do yanking and kangarooing in desperation to sniff it and spray it. If next door's cat is laying in state on the front lawn we get yapping and yammering as well. We went for a walk with family today which was over fields and my back is sore from him hauling and hanging off me.
If he can do it in the middle of a tarmacked road we can proof this to handle people and anything green. Somehow. I have to believe we can.
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Haha good luck poppops. Its worth a try! Needs patience but truly works for us. An example of the lead stroking is tonight, Leo freezes every time he sees something of interest at the minute, I think its a freeze stage he's going through but anyway there was a particularly brave crow close by, Leo froze and sat, I was being lazy and just tried calling him away a few times, didn't work, gave a little tug of the lead and it didn't work so began the stroking and called him once and he walked away happily.
I believe the issue with a lot of pulling is a lack of consistency... Anywhere new where we can't provide regular walks, Leo is a nightmare.
Similarly , on the odd occasion there are 2 of us walking him whilst on the lead instead of one of us, we also have an issue. But every time the stroking seems to bring him back to what we want.
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I love the way they use an older steady dog for these type of videos, now lets see her do it with a hyped up worker who can smell game in the air lol
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JeffD I know what you mean haha. The dog in the video has probably never pulled in his life haha, Leo LOVES to investigate swans at the minute, I'll send a video of the hilarious attempt at lead stroking when he's next on his hind feet in this situation... Much more realistic for our Cocker's but it still works for me haha
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I love the way they use an older steady dog for these type of videos, now lets see her do it with a hyped up worker who can smell game in the air lol
Exactly my thoughts.
As an aside can you imagine the looks other beaters would give you if you started stroking the lead in the middle of a drive 😁
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I love the way they use an older steady dog for these type of videos, now lets see her do it with a hyped up worker who can smell game in the air lol
Exactly my thoughts.
As an aside can you imagine the looks other beaters would give you if you started stroking the lead in the middle of a drive 😁
Yes I can imagine but will not post here, far to many nice ladies on this forum for stroking conversations :D
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We just managed a whole 20 minute walk with a loose leash!!!!! With him showing a very clear difference to the instruction 'walk', with his head up, looking at me often, loose leash, actually pacing himself to my pace!!! - and 'go sniff' where he dashes off and sprays everywhere. So proud of him!
He may never do it again, I get that, but by George I think he's got it!
Bless the Mekuti harness, it made a huge difference from the first time I put it on him. I think he was so in the habit of hanging on the lead he had no idea how to just walk by himself. What's really helped too for him has been leaving the treats and clicker at home and just middle of the road bashing up and down the close several times a day, nowhere near grass or anything to sniff. When he could loose lead walk there, I started taking him nearer verges and alternating 'go sniff' as the reward with 'walk', and we've built up to today to walking down a pavement in the park still able to alternate go sniff with nice walking! With hindsight, that was what I should have done with him right from the beginning and established 'walk' before ever taking him near high distraction grass and trees and smells. Oh well. I shall know for my next dog. (Who obviously will need to learn in a completely different way, spaniels are like that....)
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Well done you. 20 minutes loose lead with a cocker is some going 👍