Author Topic: Light at the end of the tunnel  (Read 2183 times)

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Offline Pearly

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Light at the end of the tunnel
« on: August 22, 2017, 08:52:45 PM »
It seems to have gone in a blink but after 2.5 years, at long last I see the improvement in Coral, so much so that I trust her  :luv:

She no longer runs off and would rather stay with me - she's completely focused when out working and takes hand signals as well as whistle. Retrieving dummies is no issue, marks, straight out and straight back to hand.  She will stop at distance and stays there until released - however long that is.

Saturday on the walk she was really good.  Stayed close when asked, hunted well when asked and played/didn't hunt when released.  The only misdemeanour was due to me not paying attention and Coral scenting a pheasant, which she duly flushed then chased - but - came back quickly.  Still a work in progress on steadiness.....when faced with game!

Sunday she worked well in a local wood, had 3 retrieves (all difficult, including a go-back which 2 months ago she couldn't have done without hunting every inch of woodland on the way...)

Yesterday.  We headed up to North Wales for help with steadiness and stock training.  She was sat up by a gate while a flock of sheep were herded past her at some speed - and didn't move a paw.  The sheep were moved around the field, around her and she sat fast  :o  the trainer then moved us onto pigeons which she flushed two, sat on shot but wouldn't retrieve  :huh: (flushed a third and chased it  >:D ) so work in progress......after which she went in to the pen.  Flushed a rabbit, was moving so fast she ran through the stop whistle but.....checked herself and corrected back to where the whistle was blown!  To say we were both pleased was an understatement  :clapping:

I now need to work on her retrieve of game - she didn't want to pick up a warm rabbit the previous training session and this time the warm pigeons.  I currently have a partridge defrosting to do some training tomorrow and suspect she will pick it up ok - any hints on getting her to retrieve warm game?

We still have a long way to go but I wanted to share - not least for anyone else out there with a wayward, self rewarding, self hunting spaniel......it can be done, it just takes time and allowance for a lot of growing up/maturing.  She has far better impulse control now, noticeably better in the last month - Coral is now 31 months old!

It's unlikely she will be out working this side of Christmas but I have hope that January will see her out for a few drives over a few days  :angel:


Offline ips

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Re: Light at the end of the tunnel
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2017, 09:22:59 PM »
Well it sounds like good progress, cant offer advice on the warm game as I chucked eze in at the deep end from dummie to huge cock pheasant. Why will you not be working this side of Xmas ?
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Light at the end of the tunnel
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2017, 09:44:53 PM »
Well done! Excellent progress 😀. Sorry if I missed it, but will she retrieve cold game?
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline Pearly

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Re: Light at the end of the tunnel
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2017, 11:10:11 PM »
Well it sounds like good progress, cant offer advice on the warm game as I chucked eze in at the deep end from dummie to huge cock pheasant. Why will you not be working this side of Xmas ?


Thanks both  :D

She's not steady enough yet and I don't want to rush her into working until I know she's 100%  ;).

She has picked warm game before, also cold game but not since the start of the year.  I took all the pressure off to focus on basic obedience which has paid dividends although at the fist "summer school" in April she had little interest in retrieving dummies, blinking to hunt on which is what she is doing with warm game  :-\ the difference now is that I can pull her off hunting and redirect her onto the rabbit/bird plus she is marking them which she wouldn't in April (only focussed on me).  Appreciate pigeons have a lot of feathers but she has picked those in the past as well!

Michelle - she did retrieve the birds when under pressure from another dog or really wound up /excited by the trainer!

Offline ips

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Re: Light at the end of the tunnel
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2017, 09:14:00 AM »
Its a fine line steadiness, is it not.
Sounds like you have steadied her so well she is now unsure of when she is allowed / supposed to "go" personally I reckon once she is in to game her instincts and drive will kick in. One of the best quotes I know and found to be true is "birds train bird dogs" you know your dog but if it was me I would get her into birds soon as and work it through.
You say se lost interest in retrieving dummies, did you stop her on whistle too often ? Or redirect her off a marked maybe ? I know that if I stop her too often mid retrieve she gets confused and starts popping.
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Light at the end of the tunnel
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2017, 09:14:16 AM »
If she's picked game before then she should again.  Perhaps get her retrieving in a bit of a boring spot like a sports field and put out a variety of things (including the game whatever it is) in one spot so she can see them and get her going out directly to them with enthusiasm, repetitively.  That way she will learn that when you send her she picks whatever is out there.  And she shouldn't be so inclined to hunt and confuse the two activities.  Make the retrieving a separate exercise for now rather than part of hunting up scenario.  Am doing this with my puppy at the moment on alternate days, mostly because I want to keep him confident retrieving.  he's had a pigeon in tights  :005: so far and had a sniff then picked it fine.  Otherwise I use rabbit skin dummies, plastic floating ones, tennis balls - a selection of items so he doesn't always expect a standard dummy.  Hope that helps a bit, but I feel your pain having had a very similar type of dog to Coral (as you know).
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline Pearly

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Re: Light at the end of the tunnel
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2017, 08:46:50 PM »
Its a fine line steadiness, is it not.
Sounds like you have steadied her so well she is now unsure of when she is allowed / supposed to "go" personally I reckon once she is in to game her instincts and drive will kick in. One of the best quotes I know and found to be true is "birds train bird dogs" you know your dog but if it was me I would get her into birds soon as and work it through.
You say se lost interest in retrieving dummies, did you stop her on whistle too often ? Or redirect her off a marked maybe ? I know that if I stop her too often mid retrieve she gets confused and starts popping.

Have thought about this all day!  She definitely knows when to go, she marks well goes straight out and then just stands over the bird or plucks it!  I know there is an element of "I don't know what to do with it yet" but she has retrieved birds in the past and did a couple on Sunday - she knew she did well as she was praised and rewarded with a treat (in case she thought I was taking away her food source...)

This evening we've been to a favourite field to try with the defrosted partridge- only it was a very small pheasant when unwrapped  :lol:  she messed about, a lot!  She was intent on hunting and I know that field will have mice and rabbits but not enough scent in the area to distract her - it was definitely an act - her body language and eyes gave it away.  She wouldn't retrieve anything let alone her favourite dummy and definitely not the bird.  To be fair it does have a hint of freezer burn but is fully defrosted and floppy!  After making her sit up for c10 minutes she walked back towards the gate, to heel, I dropped the bird sat her up, sent her back and she brought it to me.  She can do it, she's just choosing not to.  Not sure how I get her to pick up again?

I ended on a high note after she picked the bird up - it's now in the bin as it looks a bit worse for wear.  I'm not planning on doing any more training with her now until our next day out which is on partridge - that should be an interesting one as the breeder of her dam will be there as will the breeder of her grandad on the sires side!  No pressure then.........!

Offline ips

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Re: Light at the end of the tunnel
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2017, 09:09:11 PM »
It sounds very odd. To me its as though she feels under pressure for some reason. I still think she would pick up no problem in the right context ie on a game day. I still say get her into some birds, if you could get someone to shoot over her I reckon her instinct would kick in. Have you access to a dummy launcher maybe that would replicate a shot bird and gee her up a bit.
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Light at the end of the tunnel
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2017, 09:33:58 PM »
If she's choosing not to retrieve, and would rather hunt maybe let her do that? Are you planning to beat with her? If hunting is what she prefers, it's perfect  :D. We work on a small syndicate shoot and luckily can choose what to do most days. But it's not very often pip gets to hunt, flush and retrieve in one sequence (unless it's beaters' day). I think it's easy to get fixated on the training aspects that include all the elements, when actually we use just one. Think spaniels only really do it 'all' either trialling or rough shooting. Otherwise it's one or the other.
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline ips

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Re: Light at the end of the tunnel
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2017, 09:54:42 PM »
This is an excellent post. If your primarily beating then is the retrieving issue a big deal ?
Hunting is as Emily alludes to the primary function (as you know) and if that is what she excells at then accept you have a very good beating dog and just work with that.
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Pearly

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Re: Light at the end of the tunnel
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2017, 12:03:50 AM »
Ideally, Coral will be an all round dog - roosting after the season, rabbitting (walked up) partridge retrieving tho to be fair that's only one day - we were invited back picking up after last years day when she retrieved 11 out of the beet field on her own..........this is why I know she can do it although it wasn't under control and told me she was far too young for the day - I chose not to take her out for the rest of  last season and bring cold game home for training instead.  She didn't get much retrieving up to the start of summer school in April.

One pheasant shoot is a beat one, stand one when she has the opportunity to pick up the others are all driven and depending on who has turned out we will be beating, flag /pushing on or picking up.  If I let her just hunt she gets bored and seeks her own entertainment as I found on Saturday, she does need the occasional retrieve as a reward  :-\


Offline ips

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Re: Light at the end of the tunnel
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2017, 09:05:07 AM »
In that case I stand by my earlier post, she will do what you require in the "context" of a shoot day. Birds train bird dogs, as they say 😉
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Light at the end of the tunnel
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2017, 09:32:50 AM »
In that case I stand by my earlier post, she will do what you require in the "context" of a shoot day. Birds train bird dogs, as they say 😉
I'd go with this.  She either doesn't like the training and is bored doing it, or is genuinely disobedient/self serving if she knows what to do but won't.  Coral is frighteningly similar to Jude in being so very hard to work out and understand.  At nearly 3 you may have to accept her as she is now.  You have her under control now which is probably the most important part.  Unless you can guarantee someone to shoot over her regularly, you're not going to be guaranteed a retrieve as a reward after hunting.  And if you're expected to pick up as and when then you may have to just wing it on the day and hope she does it.  Some dogs adapt well to a variety of roles, but others just don't.  And some are just unfathomable as to why they do what they do/or not.
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline JeffD

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Re: Light at the end of the tunnel
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2017, 10:01:19 AM »
Slip a dead bird into a length of cut down ladies tights this tends to give the dog more confidence on picking up something with feathers, throw encourage run in or send immediately, make it just about fun for a few retrieves with no obedience she should get her confidence back.
Never drive faster than your guardian angel can fly

Offline ips

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Re: Light at the end of the tunnel
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2017, 10:07:33 AM »
In that case I stand by my earlier post, she will do what you require in the "context" of a shoot day. Birds train bird dogs, as they say 😉
I'd go with this.  She either doesn't like the training and is bored doing it, or is genuinely disobedient/self serving if she knows what to do but won't.  Coral is frighteningly similar to Jude in being so very hard to work out and understand.  At nearly 3 you may have to accept her as she is now.  You have her under control now which is probably the most important part.  Unless you can guarantee someone to shoot over her regularly, you're not going to be guaranteed a retrieve as a reward after hunting.  And if you're expected to pick up as and when then you may have to just wing it on the day and hope she does it.  Some dogs adapt well to a variety of roles, but others just don't.  And some are just unfathomable as to why they do what they do/or not.

Yes I think the lack of a reward (in the dogs mind) is a major factor. I am lucky that eze is so very ball obsessed she will do virtually anything for a ball. But the one thing that trumps a ball is a bird, the problem most of us have is the availability of giving them a bird to retrieve as you allude to Emily. I have never ever used cold or warm game but I suspect that the use of birds in this way is to a degree meaningless without the "context" of shoot day. As in the sights, sounds and scent of a shoot day, in fact could game used in this way be confusing for the dog without the "context" and therefore ineffectual in training the retrieve. ??
Each dog is different of course but I know that eze can get confused if things are not carried out in a certain way / routine.
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.